Small vs. Large Top Schools

Parent Cafe
61

Georgetown a safety? I highly doubt Georgetown is a safety for anyone. OP, before you plan things out you must understand that admissions is a combination of factors, some fair and rational and some blatantly unfair and illogical. This time of the year is when many parents find out how competitive schools are and get some pretty bad news. Bad things happen to great kids. You need to get yourself familiar with numbers, probability and conditional probability. Also, guidance counselors are not gods and they tend to overestimate and underestimate a childā€™s admissions chances.

So, on another thread there is a discussion on rankings, very little of it is based on what caliber of student gets in, rather perception and heresay. There is also a decided bias toward well known (to the average person) national research universities. A look at the numbers shows the student profile is not that much different in the top 25 schools on US News list of national universities vs national liberal arts colleges. Forget Acceptance Rates, they donā€™t correlate as well as you think to actual selectivity.

Now I mentioned conditional probability, you come from a state well known for very good to excellent state schools. Trust me, that will count against you in the admissions process because schools like to accept students that will actually go. Having Chapel Hill hanging in the breeze might influence some schools against acceptance. Also, your chance of acceptance goes down unless you interview and many kids simply donā€™t or canā€™t.

Please look at the following data. It might surprise many with preconceived notions of their kidā€™s chances of getting in to some schools. The left is the average ACT score of attending students and the right is the percentile of that score. Trinity College is the least selective in that list (#45 US News LAC & 85th Forbes) and still the average ACT score is in the 90th percentile. In the classic sense none are safeties except for the students with a godly application. An average score correlates well to an average chance of acceptance, an average chance.

I included Washington & Lee and Davidson because they are NC schools.

Amherst 32 98
Bowdoin 32 98
Wesleyan 32 98
Williams 32 98
Bates 31 97
Colby 30 95
Hamilton 31 97
Middlebury 31 97
Trinity 28 90
Tufts 31 97
Conn. College 30 95
Washington & Lee 32 98
Davidson 31 97
Stanford 32 98
Georgetown 31 97
Notre Dame 33 99
NYU 30 95
Brown 32 98
Harvard 34 99
Colgate 31 97

I hope this gives you some perspective.

62

re: above post re ACT scores-
dont forget that at the smaller tip top private universities that field a lot sports programs -such as Stanford- the acceptance rate of NON recruited students is far lower than the overall acceptance rate.
SAT and ACT average are brought downward in many cases by recruited athletes. And at the Ivys and Stanford the vast majority of students use the SAT, not the ACT.

ā€œTrust me, that will count against you in the admissions process because schools like to accept students that will actually go. Having Chapel Hill hanging in the breeze might influence some schools against acceptance. Also, your chance of acceptance goes down unless you interview and many kids simply donā€™t or canā€™t.ā€
This is especially true for smaller, less in demand schools and needs to be factored in.

63

Menloparkmom the athletic effect is also seen in the NESCAC schools as well. When my older boy went to Bowdoin, seventy five kids in the freshman class of about 500 were recruited. I dont think it affects the test score average but it does certainly lower the real acceptance rate. By the way to illustrate the student profile using the ACT works just as well and its less to type. So, students that are not athletes or that do not have special talents will have to do better than the average to have reasonable chance.

64

Appreciate the reality check. I have no experience by which to base what is a reach, match, or safety school as I havenā€™t been in this position before. My other kids had really simple application processes, as they choose their top choice (not one of top schools), applied and went. I usually donā€™t like it when folks throw out stats on their kid, but Iā€™m thinking my perception may be out of whack given heā€™s my child :slight_smile: I do get Georgetown should never be considered a safety school. I should also say that his particular high schools send kids to top schools every year. Both Morehead-Cain and Park Scholarships extended average 4 students every year. Please review a summary of his stats and give me honest feedback if Iā€™m being unrealistic.

Local High School: Valedictorian, AP Scholar with Distinction, Weighted GPA: 4.97, NHS, student government, instrumental awards, strong extra-curriculum activities and community service.

Residential high school for gifted students 11: weighted GPA: 5.40, SAT: 2300, student government, leadership positions on committees, continued strong participation in extra-curriculum activities, and community service. Currently participating in a Duke research project.

His greatest strength is writing and public speaking. Interviews very well. Being his mother I am biased, but it sure feels like heā€™s a really strong applicant.

65

He seems like a great kid but you will be astonished to know he is in or around the middle 50% of several of those schools. That is why other factors need to be part of your strategy.

66

OP, your S has a great resume and thereā€™s no reason he shouldnā€™t reach for the stars. Many posters are just trying to caution you about the competitiveness and fickleness of admissions at this level. There are so many great students that get rejected from the schools you are considering. If your S would be happy attending NC State or UNC, and if they are good fits and affordable without the big scholarships, then he has his safeties. If not, I would add more safeties/matches to the list. Depending on your finances, you may want to consider schools outside the top 20 (or so) where your S would be likely to receive significant merit aid.

67

Iā€™m beginning to get why kids are sending so many applications outā€¦

68

Somehow missed that heā€™s instate for UNC so thatā€™s a help as is being in a gifted magnet. Your schoolā€™s guidance counselor can probably tell you what his odds there are - the only person I know who got a Morehouse went there instead of Princeton and was from NY. I have no doubt your kid will get into some very good schools, itā€™s just that every year there are kids who for one reason or another get unlucky and have nothing to fall back on except a safety college they donā€™t actually like.

I donā€™t know what your financial situation is, but donā€™t forget that a safety college also needs to be affordable and sometimes even if you can afford anything a really sweet merit scholarship, invitations to honors programs etc, can ease the sting of having to attend a safety college. My younger son actually ended up liking his safety college better than some others on his list and they gave him a big merit scholarship to boot.

In any event this is my advice. By all means he can apply to has many of those ā€œreach for everyoneā€ colleges as he wants to. He should tweak the essays for each and every school. He should apply to as many early action, rolling admissions colleges as he can. The best safety college is the one thatā€™s already accepted you. If he doesnā€™t get good news in November or December he can tweak his list, and add some safer colleges.

My older son applied to three schools early - with two deferrals, but one acceptance with a promise of a merit award. That made the long wait till March a lot easier.

69

NCmom, I am also a NC mom! Been here on CC a long time. Your youngest kiddo sounds like one of mine. He too ended up being a UNC scholie recipient but ended up at an ivy, turning down other ivies and MIT/Caltech. Money was a big issue for us, still is as he is now in grad school.

Leave no stone unturned here in NC and then really put together a list he can live with and one where he will hopefully flourish. Duke also has the Robertson so that is also a possibility. Son was also accepted EA to Chicago and all 3 service academies. He struggled to decide, and made a decision late in April, LATE. Some suggestions would be the Huntsman program at UofPenn, son applied to the Jerome Fisher program and it was difficult to say no to that. Princetonā€™s Woodrow Wilson school is great for international studies. Sonā€™s financial aid package from Amherst, Colby, and Penn were the very best he received, albeit others came very,very close. Close enough to sway him from those schools!

Of the 34 schools he applied to he was waitlisted only to Georgetown. Weird, huh. And a warning. Son ended up having the best time of his life (so far) at his undergrad and still attends reunions every year, even through the throes of his surgery rotation in med school! He is taking time from his NICU rotation and his MBA program to attend his reunion this year. Seriously, he enjoyed himself academically and socially more than he ever thought possible. He knows his contacts from there will be life-long.

We are fortunate here in NC, as you know, to have so many different and unique choices for state schools. Even at State some of the departments feel small. As that youe son is at NC math and science I understand him looking afield. Really look at the programs, not all ivyā€™s are the same. Very different in fact. Son did not apply to Columbia or Brown, and only Cornell for engineering, Penn for M &T only. Dartmouth, yes, Pā€™ton, H and Y all yes. After visiting for accepted students day, after Penn, H and Y and MIT, son chose pā€™ton. He just fit.

So really look at the programs on paper, and then at the studentsā€™ at the respective schoolsā€¦son didnā€™t care about the campus or buildings, just what he was doing in class and with who, his peers. Made all the difference for him.

Hope we can all help with your questions along the way. There are many of us who have been down this road. And we are happy to pitch in.

Kat

70

Thanks! I did some calculatorā€™s and based on our financials, if he can get in, the private schools cost projections are significantly lower than our state school even without merit scholarshipsā€¦

71

He should definitely apply to Chicago!
They have one of the strongest debate teams in the country. Most students who are accepted at Chicago have musical backgrounds and play in one or more of various groups on campus.
That saidā€¦ I would also suggest he also apply to USC [ Southern Calif] .
As different as it is from Chicago- lots of sports teams- It has recently become a great University with a fantastic music dept, a very ethnically diverse student population, and much much more. USC has a VERY generous Merit scholarship program for top students [ 100+ each year win full tuition scholarships, 250+ more win 1/2 tuition scholarships]. My son, who was accepted at many top Uā€™s, including Chicago ,Brown, Wash U, Dartmouth, but not at Stanford, went to USC on a Full Tuition Scholarship, and is now completing his PhD at Caltech.
His roommate won Churchill and Hertz fellowships and is now studying for his PhD at Princeton.
And you cant beat the S.Calif weather!

72

NCmom- Your son might look at Yale, along with Columbia and Brown, all three more urban and artsy and less jockish than Stanford, . Yale loves ā€œrenaissanceā€ students and has some of the advantages of a smaller school because of the residential college system, but still has the advantages of a top research university.

ā€œAlthough I do think Pamona itself may be a good fit, I donā€™t see him in San Diego,ā€¦ā€

Btw, Pomona College is in Los Angeles, not San Diego. :wink:

73

Thank you for highlighting Yale, since weā€™ll be close on our east coast tour. Thanks for highlighting where Claremont, itā€™s definitely a no. I canā€™t imagine him in the Valleyā€¦

74

Pomona in the Valley? I give up. He obviously belongs in the east coast!

75

Yale is impressive but New Haven is decidedly not. New Haven is the second most dangerous small city in the US and it looks it. Good pizza though.

76

You donā€™t need to answer this, but regarding debate, the best fit will match how successful your son has been in high school. If he is winning at state or nationals, University of Chicago historically it isnā€™t known as a powerhouse in the debating community. Consider Northwestern, Georgetown (maybe thatā€™s why you included it to begin with?), Harvard, Wake Forest, maybe Emory, Michiganā€¦ http://groups.wfu.edu/NDT/HistoricalLists/winners.html

On the other hand, if you son has been a finalist or even tournament winner but maybe not achieving the highest level, look at U of Chicago more closely. It could be perfect. Also key: look at which schools are strong in the kind of debate your son prefers. Finally, on the LAC front, consider Whitman and Willamette in the Pacific Northwest which field competitive teams, Whitman sometimes at the highest level. I suspect great merit packages would be in store at either school and youā€™ve also just added geographic diversity to his lists of reasons to be admitted.

Edited to add: ā€œor nationalsā€

77

In looking back our two searches started very much this way. First the larger urban schools and then after visiting one by one they came off the lists. All for different reasons of course. Even large rural schools. In the end both wanted everything close and on a compact campus and both were hypercritical of the dining halls and food quality. OP donā€™t be surprised if his likes and priorities change once you start visiting.

78

Chicago participates in parliamentarian debates under the the American Parliamentary Debate Association, which is an entirely different program from NDT. It IS a powerhouse team on APDA.

ā€œThe Chicago Debate Society is the parliamentary debate team of the University of Chicago. We compete on the American Parliamentary Debate Association circuit and send debaters to tournaments almost every weekend. CDS has consistently met tremendous success on APDA, qualifying teams to Nationals every year and routinely winning Speaker and Team Awards at tournaments.ā€
http://debate.uchicago.edu/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Parliamentary_Debate_Association

Chicago is not even listed on the NDT roster.
http://groups.wfu.edu/NDT/Documents/program.html

79

Bates is part of APDA and is generally in the top ten or top five. Couple years back the group was 9th in the world.

80

No pizza for you.

New Haven is a great city, and in a quarter century, neither I nor anyone else in my family has experienced or witnessed a single crime. There are some great neighborhoods, and lots to do. My kidsā€™ suburban friends think New Haven is ā€œcoolā€ and have come to envy It versus their sterile picket fences.

Itā€™s a city, with poor, high-crime neighborhoods, no surprise. But a little bit of common sense and youā€™re good to go.

Thereā€™s no accounting for taste. To me, Lewiston, MEā€“Batesā€“is a dump. Look at these opinions. Itā€™s meh: http://alltowndata.com/moving-to/Lewiston-Maine

Hereā€™s how itā€™s misleading to say New Haven is so dangerous.

http://www.ctdatahaven.org/blog/2011/06/public_safety_new_haven/

Abraham shared a comparison of crime rates and population among New Haven and several other cities. He pointed to the cities of Wichita, Kansas and Tulsa, Oklahoma, which did not appear on 24/7ā€™s list of ā€œMost Dangerous Cities.ā€ Tulsa and Wichita incorporate a geographical land area 10 times larger than the municipal boundary of New Haven. When one holds land area constant, and matches the comparable New Haven area to those of Wichita and Tulsa, the population density and employment characteristics of the three cities is nearly identical. In this true comparison of where people live and work, noted Abraham, Tulsa, Wichita, and New Haven have an equivalent population of just under 400,000, and New Haven has the lowest crime rate by a significant margin.