<p>I'm a junior researching undergraduate schools. Princeton obviously seems like a superb and beautiful school which focuses on undergraduates, but a couple of things (only based on what others are saying) have been keeping Princeton off any serious lists for myself.</p>
<p>1 - Is the snobbery of the students and the campus' "eating clubs" apparent, creating an upper-class, cliquey environment?
2 - Is the extreme grade deflation keeping students from top grad schools, as well as creating terribly cutthroat competition for 4 long years?</p>
<p>Basically, are these important factors that every applicant should consider, or are they just myths? Thanks!</p>
<p>I don’t know about #1, since that’s more of a subjective question. Princeton’s financial aid program is quite good, though, so socio-economically, students aren’t as upper-class as at many other universities. It’s possible that those who are upper-class are more ostentatiously so than such people at other universities, however.</p>
<p>The first part of #2 is demonstrably false in an objective sense; since the grade deflation policy was enacted, students have had more success when applying to graduate schools (of course, that doesn’t suggest a casual relationship between the two, but does indicate that the policy hasn’t had a substantial adverse impact). Also, the extent of the policy has been exaggerated in many places; the average GPA of a Princeton student has only gone down by 0.1 from its peak in 2001; it has, however, gone up by 0.15 since 1981. </p>
<p>You’re right about the second aspect, though; in general, the policy has led to increased competition. However, it’s not as bad as it can be made to seem – I’d say (just as a not-very-informed guess) that Princeton lies between Yale and Harvard in terms of competitiveness. Also, no literal slitting of throats occurs.</p>
<p>Haha, thank you Begoner. Just to clarify, when say “Princeton lies between Yale and Harvard in terms of competitiveness”, I’m guessing you are placing Harvard as the most internally competitive, no?</p>
<p>Here are some facts about Princeton taken from the most recent US News and World Report:</p>
<p>percentage of students on financial aid–53% (by way of contract, Yale had 43% of students on financial aid and Harvard had 52% of students on aid)
percentage of white students–60% (by way of contrast, Harvard is 59% white and Yale is 60% white)</p>
<p>Princeton offers better/comparable financial aid to some of its peer schools and is just as diverse. The “snobby” student body myth is just that–a myth–based on the past and frankly, also on the sheer existence of eating clubs. Approximately 80% of the students are in eating clubs and as has been discussed frequently on these boards, half of the clubs are sign-in clubs. That means that anyone can join a club. In addition, many students on financial aid are members of the clubs and on any given night, there are club parties open to all students, regardless of whether they are members. The administration has taken steps to both make eating clubs more accessible (financial aid now covers the cost of eating in the clubs) and to provide alternatives to the clubs (establishing new four year colleges and having eating plans that are half at the clubs/half in the dining halls).</p>
<p>I think if you ask most of the students at Princeton, including the vast majority on financial aid, they would say that the clubs are a huge positive–the “Street” provides a place to socialize for everyone, you don’t have to wander through campus hoping to find a party and it’s extremely inclusive in that, unlike many schools with a heavy frat culture, most of the parties are open and/or easy to get into.</p>
<p>As to grade deflation, like begoner, I feel that it’s effect has been wildly exaggerated. It is not a popular policy among students for obvious reasons. However, it has had minimal if any impact on graduate school admission rates and job offer rates. As to competition among students, that’s hard to measure, but I haven’t seen much evidence of it (I’m an alumna and my daughter is a student). The kids work very hard at Princeton but it’s a fairly low key and collaborative atmosphere. In addition, since grade deflation has had a much less pronounced effect on the sciences (often 35% of the class didn’t get As in the past anyway), you don’t see significant competition among the pre-meds or engineering students, which is often where it would be most pronounced.</p>
<p>I would strongly advise you to visit. It’s a really really happy school. Most of the students love it and they don’t want to leave.</p>
<p>Yeah, I do think of Harvard as the most competitive, but that may just be ignorant stereotyping on my part.</p>
<p>As for the racial breakdown, according to the 2006-2007 common data set for Princeton (<a href=“http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common\cds2006.pdf[/url]”>http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common\cds2006.pdf</a>), 2756 out of 4790 undergraduates were white (57.5%). However, 138 didn’t specify a race; it’s probably fair to assume that whites would be disproportionately represented in that group. So if, say, 75% of that group is white, that means that 59.5% of Princeton students are white (implying that Princeton is substantially more diverse than the total US population, which is 70% white). It’s probable that the same is true for Yale and Harvard; however, all three universities are likely to publish the lower figure to exaggerate the degree of diversity.</p>
<p>I don’t know about the eating clubs since I’m not there yet (class of 2013) but my '12 friend says it’s not at all snobby (or at least no more than would be expected from an Ivy). But as for grade deflation, I can tell you that at least in Chemical Engineering, virtually everybody gets into their top choice of grad school. In the departmental meeting the chair said that generally MIT snaps up Princeton grads, but this year almost all the graduating seniors going to grad school (bear in mind that there are only about 30) were headed to Stanford. So I think that qualifies as doing fine applying to grad schools.</p>
<p>I think a lot of the arguments that Princeton is equivalently diverse are really a bunch of carp to soothe rather than to deal with the real issues. Bringing up HY is often the point of comparison for P, but to compare with other schools in the relative peer group is also important to see that P does not quite stack up. And talking about the percentage of white students really doesn’t quite speak to what else is going on and other ways to look at diversity.</p>
<p>Columbia is over 50% minority.
Stanford is 2/3.
MIT is just approaching 2/3. (admittedly Asian and South Asian populations are heavy here, but consider Stanford has a very strong Native population)</p>
<p>As for underrepresented groups. The schools above have percentages of black, Hispanic and Native populations that equal the total number of minorities at Princeton (~30% or so).</p>
<p>Princeton may reflect today’s society or even be more diverse than present society, but it doesn’t quite reflect the society we as students will actually be controlling in 20-30 years time. That would concern me, but of course not the only reason to choose a school. I do think it is interesting though that 14% of students are children of alumni. Sure some may be children of minority individuals, but that is doubtful. Which means that there are more children of alumni on campus than African American students, twice as many as Latino students.</p>
<p>The other way in which universities measure how ‘socioeconomically’ diverse schools are is looking at percentage of students who require Pell Grants. Usually the bottom quintile of income earners. Columbia 16, MIT 14, Harvard 12…Princeton 8. So even though Princeton may have a lot of students on financial aid, it could also be a lot of people in middle to upper middle income ranges that qualify for some aid, but do not require a lot of assistance.</p>
<p>I just say this to emphasize that on the modern scale of diversity, Princeton certainly isn’t in the Palaeozaic era, but it isn’t quite as diverse as other places. I don’t think it portends to be as diverse, it is not Princeton’s niche (community, great resources, fantastic faculty). But certainly there is a culture that must develop at Pton that is not what you would get at the other peer schools that are more diverse. Does that = snobby? I wouldn’t know, I didn’t go to Princeton, and I guess only those students can answer. I would be curious what students of color feel at Princeton and perhaps further how their experience compares to their peers at more diverse Ivies. There was an interesting article I want to say in Time that talked about Michele Obama and students from that era when the minority population at Princeton was even lower and how eating clubs were seen as anathema - considering that not too long ago uniformed blacks served club members. An interesting view. Most Ivies have some degree of that irony (especially as they become bastions of diversity when they were once exclusionary), but no place more than the “Southern Ivy,” Princeton, is the transformation as interesting and provocative.</p>
<p>That last post was just weird.
Comparing Columbia and Princeton, using 2009 USN&WR, both 1% Native American, 16% Asian American Columbia vs. 14% Princeton, 8% African- American Columbia vs.9% Princeton, 9% Hispanic Columbia vs. 8% Princeton, 9% International for both. Identical as can be.
Granted, Stanford and MIT have more of the “over represented minority”, but one is in California and the other is a math and science school. What do you expect?</p>
<p>USN&WR is off because it includes a ugrad school (general studies) that does not really compete with Princeton for applicants. I mean you wouldn’t know that, which is probably why you turned to it as a bad source, so how about the traditional ugrad schools against each other. The numbers are not as “identical as can be”</p>
<p>USN&WR’s numbers include neither the School of General Studies nor the engineering school, which is why Columbia managed to claim an 11% admissions rate in USN&WR.
Dartmouth, Princeton and others include their engineering folk. Why not Columbia?
To rant a little more completely off-topic, every Barnard parent posting on these threads claims that for all intents and purposes, their daughters are receiving an education fully integrated with Columbia and have Columbia’s name on their diplomas. I have yet to see Columbia include their Barnard students in their stats.
To get back on topic, as a parent, I would say that there is an eating club for every one who is interested, and since a large majority of students join, it generally isn’t snobby at all. Certainly no more snobby than going to an Ivy League university in the first place.
On grade deflation, there is no hard evidence that students are hurt in graduate applications by this, but more than a few students worry about it.
I have never heard that the grade deflation policy has had the effect of making students feel competitive with each other. There is a VERY friendly ethos at Princeton. People do have very high expectations for themselves.
Finally, in this thread and some similar ones, it should be obvious which posters have some ongoing knowledge of Princeton and which don’t.</p>
<p>Danas - Columbia last year had a 11% admit rate WITH the engineering school in 2007, which is what the year of data it is from. In 2007 the college alone had a 9% admit rate and the college has consistently held a lower admit rate than Princeton proper.</p>
<p>This year it had a 9.82% with the engineering school as both are traditional ugrad schools. Problem is that USNews decides to grab stats from different places - it is their methodological flaw. They don’t include Harvard Extension or any other non traditional program housed within top tier schools (Uchicago has something similar), but that is the problem when the story is more complicated than just pulling numbers. I think it is not a reputable source (US News) and so I used the data from the actual schools and what they say is the class. FYI - Columbia has two ugrad schools that are traditional, one that is non traditional, and one that is affiliated. For data purposes two report together and the other two have separate efforts; for practical living purposes - all 4 schools are integrated wrt student life, classes, though not living - hence why the relationship is unique, unlike any other sister-ivy relationship, but ultimately when numbers speak, reporting shifts.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to shift this to Columbia, there is a thread for that, but I think CU is a good exemplar of being far more diverse than Princeton is, when you look at the proper numbers right next to each other.</p>
<p>I don’t wish to down Columbia, except for data manipulation that ought to drop WashU from its roost. A great institution, nonetheless.
I would like to address comments about Michelle Obama at Princeton. I live two blocks from the Obama’s house in Chicago and know her brother, who preceded her to Princeton.
Princeton has a very positive image in the black community in Chicago. John Rogers founded Ariel Capital Management here, and Mellody Hobson is another black Princeton graduate from Ariel and Chicago who appears often in financial reporting on ABC. Craig Robinson wore a Princeton tie to his brother-in-law’s inaugural. He has been nothing but enthusiastic in conversations with me about Princeton.
I’m sorry to the OP to veer off topic. Diversity was not an issue here until injected.</p>
<p>I believe that Columbia, which I think is your school, is probably somewhat more diverse than Princeton. We could also name top schools that are somewhat less diverse than Princeton (University of Chicago, Dartmouth) and a number that have similar stats. As to legacies, Princeton has 14%, Yale has between 13-16% and Columbia apparently does not give out those stats according to this article [Top</a> Colleges Mum on Legacy Admissions - ABC News](<a href=“Top Colleges Mum on Legacy Admissions - ABC News”>Top Colleges Mum on Legacy Admissions - ABC News)</p>
<p>However, I also believe that Princeton provides a tremendous opportunity for all students, including minority students. It offers an amazing undergraduate faculty, an extremely happy and loyal student body and a plethora of extracurricular opportunities. It is not any more snobby than similar schools and the eating clubs may or may not be something you’re interested in, but they are available to all, including students on financial aid.</p>
<p>You have used many phrases, i.e. “rather than deal with the real issues”, “I don’t think it portends to be diverse”, that suggest that somehow Princeton is not an appropriate place for minority students. I don’t agree at all. I think that all Ivy League schools (including Columbia) are removed from the real world in the sense that there are relatively few people who leave because of money concerns, have spouses that lose their jobs, can’t get medical insurance etc. However, I know of nothing that would lead me to conclude that minorities are unhappy, isolated or treated differently at Princeton or that they don’t enjoy their undergraduate experience or gain immeasurably because of their exposure to different people and different viewpoints. Columbia is located in a city and Princeton in a suburb, Columbia has the core, Princeton does not–those are reasons to make choices between such schools. However, the notion that Princeton doesn’t
as you put it isn’t a compelling argument (and by the way, good luck in being in control of society).</p>
<p>I don’t see on the page that midatlmom linked to where the 58 percent is stated. I guess it’s a trivial distinction, but I was just curious about the discrepancy,</p>
<p>Actually, Craig wore his schools colors, Oregon State, where he coaches. He made that clear in an interview. His family has played down the whole Princeton connection for obvious reasons unfortunately. I think he is more positive about Pton than his sister is. There was an interesting interview with his sister’s southern roommate. The roommate came on TV and asked Michele’s forgiveness for basically being a bigot at that time. Turns out she said she understands discrimation now because she is lesbian. It was a pretty awful story about the roommates parents demanding a room change due to her color. Made me sick to hear it. She said she is really pleased with how far Pton has come especially giving high marks to the various LGBT programs and such. Oh well.</p>