<p>While I do disagree with Silvern, to those you personally attacking him/her, grow up. g0ld3n, you are the one that needs to take a critical thinking/analytical class since you apparently can’t differentiate between attacking Silvern personally and simply disagreeing with his position at hand.</p>
<p>Personally attacking someone else instead of debating their positions is immature, and will definitely not be tolerated in your classes. Unless you plan to go into politics, attacking someone personally and not debating his/her positions will not give you credibility and may stifle any advancements you want to make in your career. It’s extremely childish and stupid. </p>
<p>I hope that I don’t have g0ld3n in any of my classes; I don’t want to deal with arrogant, conceited, and elitist freshmen.</p>
<p>Haha I’m far from elitist albeit slightly condescending. </p>
<p>The reason I don’t actually even bother debating the issue is because every single person here that has disagreed with us (icesplendor, 187, me) has so completely missed the point that it just boggles my mind. The original point icesplendor was making has absolutely nothing to do with a bus pass if you couldn’t really make the clear distinction. His dilemma actually stems from the classic “why should I be forced to pay for something I don’t need” question. Everyone who was arguing in favor of the bus pass already lost any credibility he/she had by showing that they can’t differentiate between the two distinctly different philosophies of reason. Of course the damn pass is beneficial for many and keeps a system going. That has already been established and acknowledged long ago. Yes, icesplendor used the specific example of the bus pass, but that isn’t really the central thesis of the problem here at all. Anyone attacking his point with fallacious comparisons to “taxes,” “lab fees,” and “financial aid anecdotes” are completely missing the point. </p>
<p>Also, Silvern, since for some insecure reason you won’t tell us your major, I am curious. Are you a male or female?</p>
<p>All in all excluding the off-topic remarks (personal anecdotes, etc.), I think we can confidently conclude that there is no legitimate reason why the class pass shouldn’t be optional. Or at the very least, we can conclude that none of the reasons stated in these threads are legitimate support for the fee being mandatory.</p>
<p>And for those who state that we should do something rather than argue, there’s but little to actually do. I would give a tirade about political activism and voting, but this would just lead to off-topic arguments.</p>
<p>Gobears10, what 187 said is the real reason why I don’t actually attempt to argue because I already know that there is really no possible way for anyone to prove that the pass should be mandatory. If there is, I’m still waiting to hear it. The fact that Silvern cannot win is because to prove that the pass should be mandatory he/she has to prove the premise “If some people want it and lots of people are happy with the system then compulsory entry into whatever it is (in this case buying the pass) should be mandatory.” </p>
<p>Obviously, anyone with half a brain can conclude that the above statement can in no way be applied to this scenario. That premise has too many problems with it to begin with. By Silvern’s logic, Berkeley should have a “pornographic fan pass” where paying $69 a month can get you free access to pay per view 18+ programs in dorms. With Silvern’s “logical” argument, this pass should be mandatory because many, many people will definitely enjoy this and make use of the system and it benefits a great number of people because college students will definitely love this deal. According to Silvern, if one feels ripped off by being forced to pay for this ridiculous pass, then he/she should just watch more porn to get their payment’s worth because $69 is simply a fraction of the 20k tuition. <insert all=“” other=“” completely=“” ludicrous=“” arguments=“” here=“” as=“” well=“”> </insert></p>
<p>You get the idea. Arguing that the bus pass should actually be mandatory is just plain sad yet amusing to read at the same time.</p>
<h2>I was initially going to respond with, “You have the option of taking 19 units, don’t you?” Then I realized that someone could retort with, “You have the option of taking the bus, don’t you?” Hm…interesting thought. </h2>
<h2>Silvern, yes, as I mentioned previously, your major doesn’t have to do with this thread and was for my own curiosity. You have the right to decline telling me. Personally, I’m willing to tell anyone my major when asked and wouldn’t want to hide it. Hopefully, you’re proud of the major you’re in, whatever that may be. And you’re right in assuming that I think you’re lying about reading the previous thread, but you shouldn’t worry yourself about that. </h2>
<p>Hm…well, here’s something I can ask campaigners to think about. I can start a troublesome conversation next time they try to follow me, and afterwards wonder if they actually cared or just wanted a vote. Meh.
I’m probably not going to take real action towards getting rid of this mandatory pass, but I’m glad I got some people to think about whether or not it’s worthwhile. Thank you for those who gave reasonably sound arguments from either end.</p>
<p>The reason I’m not telling you my major is because you are clearly asking me in order to use it against me in some way, or to judge me somehow. I’m not insecure, I’m just not willing to put up with your condescension.</p>
<p>Also, I like how excelblue makes a point regarding campus libraries and course units that I made earlier (I mentioned how students may not be using dorm landlines, the RSF, or labs on campus) and suddenly it’s an “interesting thought” for you. Just saying.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For someone who is apparently so well-versed with reasoning, you sure do like to spend a lot of your time coming up with ways to try and insult me. Pornography? Really? But anyways, you did a fairly decent job of summarizing some parts of my (and the University’s) argument, which is not as ridiculous as you seem to think it is.</p>
<p>No idea what the heck my sex has to do with this, unless you’re planning on profiling me or something. No, I’m not insecure, I’m just not willing to play your stupid games. Regardless, I’m not looking for a relationship right now. Sorry. You’ll find plenty of people once you get to Cal, but please realize that having such a rude and holier-than-thou attitude will not make you many friends around here.</p>
<p>i’m not even going to bother reading all the posts in this thread, but </p>
<p>@OP’s OP post:
</p>
<p>Ok, yes, I’m sure you don’t appreciate it. Ok, yes, you don’t use the bus pass. </p>
<p>There are many people who do use the bus pass (well beyond what $70 would normally get you on ASUC) and there are many who don’t use the bus at all or very rarely (& I’m sure you fall into this category). </p>
<p>Now, let’s recall the idea of this “bus pass” deal. Berkeley gives AC transit some $. AC transit gives Berkeley a ***** load of bus passes. UC Berkely shakes hands with AC Transit. the end.</p>
<p>then, UC berkeley goes on to “sell” us these bus passes at a rate of $70. naturally, they tag this as mandatory as so each semester every student at Cal has to pay the fee regardless of how many of us use the bus however frequently.</p>
<p>so. </p>
<p>WHY would AC transit make the deal with UC Berkeley in the first place? if every cal student used the bus multiple times every day, isn’t AC transit missing out on a lot of profit by making the deal with Cal?</p>
<p>now. </p>
<p>AC transit isnt some cute company designed to make students’ lives easier (although for some students thats what AC transit does). like any functioning company, their goal is the $$$. (read: profit)</p>
<p>so you’d have to sit down and ponder a little bit here… why shake hands with Cal? -> because. it must be profitable. by this thread existing, it is evidence of the fact that it is NOT the case that all students use the bus, and NOT the case that those who DO use the bus even ride it very frequently at all! (though for those of you who do, you “are” getting your money’s worth. more power to you)</p>
<p>so now. </p>
<p>WHY would Student Action start the idea of the bus pass? </p>
<p>let’s think. Cal makes the deal. Cal loses money to make the deal. Cal turns around and forces us to eat the cost. </p>
<p>Hm.</p>
<p>Let me ask you… do you think Cal charges us <em>just</em> enough to cover the costs of making the deal with AC transit…?</p>
<p>Hm…
That’d be kind of silly IMHO.</p>
<p>I mean, if you have the opportunity to make some students’ lives “easier” by providing bus passes. That’s OK.</p>
<p>But if you can do all of the above… AND make a little $$$, then… why not?</p>
<p>Where do you think a handsome cut of that extra $$$ goes?</p>
<p>ding ding ding!!! our good friends at ASUC!</p>
<p>and WHO is hoping/projecting/campaigning so that they will end up running ASUC in the near future?</p>
<p>ding ding! our good pals over at Student Action!</p>
This is not a matter of reducing the transit fee in terms of how often you use it, but whether or not it should be mandatory. The units fee is different since everyone takes unit and the argument here is not whether the unit fee should be mandatory.</p>
<p>In other words, arguing that the unit fee should depend on the amount of units you take is arguing that the transit fee should depend on how often you take the transit. This is a completely separate argument from the transit fee being mandatory so the analogy does not fit.</p>
<p>I think it needs to be established that the reason the University made it mandatory for all students to purchase the ‘bus pass’ is so that the majority, who do not tend to use the bus, can shoulder some of the cost for those who do rely on the transit system as their primary means of transportation. Thus the debate here shouldn’t be about how trivial the $70 is or how useful the pass is but rather, the issue is whether the principle behind this act is approved by most of the student body. </p>
<p>And 187 makes a very valid point. Equating units to the bus pass is not a sound argument. The reason is that when you accept admission to the university and agrees to pay the tuition, you, in fact, give consent to the university to charge you for the right to pursue the required units for graduation. In other words, the decision to pay for the right to earn these units is strictly yours to make. How you utilize this opportunity (whether you take 4 or 18 units) after you made the ‘purchase’ is not what should be argued here. On the other hand, students are not afforded the same right to make their own decision regarding the bus pass and that is the concern.</p>
<p>Actually, I would suggest that the <em>majority</em> of students at Berkeley (and most other major urban universities) do use the bus pass. Certainly at least enough times to make the pass cost-neutral vs. buying individual fares.</p>
<p>Students are given the right to make their own decision about the bus pass - you can propose to the ASUC that the policy be dropped. I would suggest that this is a fool’s errand because there is likely significant majority support for the bus pass policy, but there is nothing stopping you from trying.</p>
<p>Well if that is the case, then so be it. Hopefully the reason this proposition prevailed isn’t due to the fact those who oppose it simply didn’t bother to voice their dissent.</p>
<p>^ Lol that’s probably what happened. All the people who disagreed didn’t care enough. And besides, if you propose to take the bus pass away, Student Action will get butthurt.</p>
You’ll find plenty of people once you get to Cal, but please realize that having such a rude and holier-than-thou attitude will not make you many friends around here.</p>![http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/27525_381297465928_5875_n.jpg[/url]](http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/27525_381297465928_5875_n.jpg%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
