Socioeconomic class and college success

Parents Forum
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<p>You’re referring to the Summer Discovery Program. I recalled they made an announcement about it over the loudspeaker at my middle school during the late '80s. If you’re low income and within 60 points of the cutoff of the school you wanted to attend, you were eligible to attend for another chance…though you still had to make the grade in the Discovery courses(Math & English prep). </p>

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<p>One English teacher/GC report writer mentioned once that Btech was still good when he graduated in 1976, but went downhill not too long afterwards. </p>

<p>Knocks on it I’ve heard from students who went there were: </p>

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<li><p>It was much bigger than Stuy/Bxscience in terms of population so it felt more like a zoned neighborhood HS with 10-20k students. </p></li>
<li><p>Was located in what was once a crappy Brooklyn neighborhood where muggings/beatings by neighborhood kids/ne’er do wells were worse than my childhood neighborhood(it was pretty bad where I was back in the '80s). </p></li>
<li><p>Forced you to declare a narrow major(i.e. Technical liberal arts, Mechanical Engineering, etc) which lead to a wildly disparate and sometimes unbalanced educational experience. Stuy and BxScience students all had to fulfill the same stipulated requirements. </p></li>
<li><p>Some academically marginal kids with violently disruptive tendencies were getting in because the cutoff score for Btech was much lower than BxScience or Stuy which made for a horrid experience for other students before they voluntarily transferred back to their zoned high school or tossed out for conduct violations(i.e. Beating someone up).</p></li>
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<p>I’m late to the party and would like to get back to the original article. I have worked at public universities for the past 20 years. Some had substantial numbers of low-income, first-generation, and/or minority students and some did not but were trying to become more diverse (ethnically/socio-economically, etc.) The schools where these students were successful were schools that provided on-going, comprehensive support programs for the students. In my opinion, THAT is the key. You can’t just recruit these students to your school, you have to help them succeed (in many cases it’s giving them the kind of support/advice that we middle-class parents give our own kids that these students’ parents don’t have the experience or wherewithal to give.)</p>

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<p>Wow cobrat your memory is amazing :slight_smile: I just looked it up and I guess it’s in Fort Greene. An iffy hood when I went to HS (the private in Bklyn was not too far, edge of Bklyn Heights), but totally upscale nowadays I’m sure, each visit back to Brooklyn shocks me.</p>

<p>I’d forgotten the technical major thing, that would have turned me way off back then. I came very close to choosing drama at Performing Arts HS over the HS I did choose…decided a more well rounded education would be better. I was no way thinking of a “tech” school and it may be that the name gave it a vocational sort of rep, together with the specializing and the size. I’m pretty sure I never even considered it, having gotten into Science.</p>

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<p>Well…middle/high school was in the midst of the worst period of my adolescent/teen life. Parents couldn’t afford the private schools and weren’t necessarily more impressed considering one older cousin who nearly flunked out of college at a lower-tiered large university was a graduate of a private school which was one of the academic peer rivals of Obama’s HS*. </p>

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<li>Obama graduated from Punahou as a scholarship student. Said cousin’s younger sister went there…though she went a little after our president graduated.<br></li>
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<p>I don’t think the vocational sounding name had anything to do with Btech’s lower reputation vs BxScience and Stuy. </p>

<p>I think it’s a mix of its location in a sketchy neighborhood, much larger size, past reports of violently disruptive students, and much lower cut-off score. Granted, most of that info is from alums who attended from the 70’s to the mid-'90s. </p>

<p>Just checked the current stats on school size on each school. Looks like Btech is nearly double the size of Stuy or BxScience in terms of student population. No wonder many BTech alums I’ve met said their HS felt so large and impersonal when they attended.</p>

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<p>My daughter goes to Brooklyn Tech. It sits among $5 million brownstones, so no worries about the neighborhood–it has been many years since it was a sketchy neighborhood. It takes twice as many students as Stuy or Bronx Science (now has 5500 students) so of course they go further down the list to accept all those kids every year. It is a fine school, still has majors but every year there are more humanities-oriented majors since, due to the lunatic NYC high school admissions process, many kids go there every year with zero interest in engineering. Every student still takes mechanical drawing and students are eligible for a Brooklyn Tech diploma certified by the organization of high schools of engineering but there is a very wide range of APs of every kind–like almost every AP course that has a test except those for foreign languages not taught at Tech which only has Spanish, French, Italian and Mandarin Chinese.</p>

<p>Bronx Science has a terrible principal right now. The teacher turnover every year is over 20 percent, while at Tech and Stuy it’s less than 2 percent. All three are fine schools but even though my daughter scored high enough for admission to any of them, I am happy she’s at Tech which is more diverse (60 percent Asian but not just Chinese kids–many South Asians and East Asians from other countries; low percentage of black and Latino kids but much higher than at Stuy or BxSci; a very wide range of kids, every extracurricular activity and sport imaginable–just a great school all around, with a fine principal.</p>

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<p>I think there has to be a limit to the resources spent on one segment of students. Being low income they get financial aid that is subsidized by full pay parents. Then on top of that they need to have additional hand holding in the form of support programs which are of course, subsidized by tuition dollars. </p>

<p>No wonder schools cost a fortune.</p>

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<p>Not at most schools. Many schools give pretty meager aid to low income students. And almost all students are subsidized either by tax dollars or donations.</p>

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<p>Proudpatriot, the benefits to ALL students of a diverse student body have been amply demonstrated in other threads (and of course in real life). If you don’t like how a given institution chooses to spend its tuition dollars, you are free to not apply there. Students don’t all avail themselves equally of ANY campus resource. But at most schools, they are there for those who need or want them.</p>

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<p>^ right in this thread four posts up a mom says her child chose a high school - B Tech - partly for reasons of diversity. It mattered to me in my choice, too. A couple of the privates that accepted ME as the token poor kid just had too many rich white kids for my comfort level. Though I was still on average lower income than most kids at my school, it had a wide ranging, generous scholarship program that ensured many kids like me were there…and we ALL wanted that.</p>

<p>Not many people want to attend a school with single race rich kids.</p>

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<p>First, what do you have against “Chinese kids”? </p>

<p>Secondly, it sounds like the Stuy of my time(early to mid-'90s) was more diverse than Btech is currently. Back when I was at Stuy, the Asian-American population was a little more than 50%…including South Asians and East Asians from other countries. The second/third largest Asian groups other than the Chinese were Koreans and South Asians as far as I recall. </p>

<p>As for the sketchy neighborhood and crime issues, some of the reports I’ve read were in the '00s. As for crappy principals, all of the Specialized HS have had bouts with them…including Btech’s own Lee McCaskill. From reading about the controversy…sounds like he’s a piece of work in his own right. </p>

<p>Stuy’s also not immune unfortunately, judging by what I’ve heard from younger alums, current students, and some old teachers who still teach there.</p>

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<p>Interestingly enough, the LAC I ended up attending also had generous scholarships for low income students with high academic achievement or those from certain groups they wanted to attract. </p>

<p>Understandable considering I went from a HS where a quarter of the students were fellow Chinese-Americans to one where Asians/Asian-Americans barely made up 10% of the college’s population at the time (74% White). </p>

<p>Did I also mention that most students were upper/upper-middle class suburbanites despite their strenuous efforts at hiding their bourgie backgrounds? </p>

<p>Even so…it would show…such as some of their patronizing assumptions that I as an “inner-city public school graduate” would find it a huge adjustment considering many of them attended expensive well-reputed private schools. </p>

<p>Amusing how that assumption was eviscerated once our first undergrad grade reports came out and further reinforced by subsequent grades to graduation.</p>

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<p>How many CCers are from these 75% US households where mom or dad has saved less than $30K for retirement? I heard on DR show that 75% US adults have saved about $28K by retirement. That’s shocking to say the least. How savvy can their kids be money wise?</p>

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<p>"Did I also mention that most students were upper/upper-middle class suburbanites despite their strenuous efforts at hiding their bourgie backgrounds? "</p>

<p>Is there something wrong with being an upper middle class suburbanite that I’m not aware of? Are these students supposed to be “ashamed” or something?</p>

<p>"Even so…it would show…such as some of their patronizing assumptions that I as an “inner-city public school graduate” would find it a huge adjustment considering many of them attended expensive well-reputed private schools. </p>

<p>Amusing how that assumption was eviscerated once our first undergrad grade reports came out and further reinforced by subsequent grades to graduation."</p>

<p>What an unusual experience Oberlin must have been if you all sat around, discussed and compared grades. Now that’s bourgeois. I don’t know any college student who engages in such tackiness. Kids normally focus on themselves, not trying to gain social status through comparing grades.</p>

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<p>lake42ks, why is it “shocking” that a lot of people have saved so little? Declining or stagnant wages, lack of appreciation on real estate, nonexistent or inadequate pension funds–along with an ever-increasing cost of living–this figure doesn’t surprise me at all. And I wouldn’t be so quick to judge anyone’s financial management skills because of this. For many people $28k is the best they have been able to do.</p>

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<p>Judging by the response here by CC’ers that are relatively educated in the college selection process, the NYT article has served its purpose. We get that applicants from low-income families have it tough–they are in most cases not given the role-model examples to follow.</p>

<p>But had the article focused on three girls from families of middle-class means, I’ll bet that the article would have never seen the light of day. Financial issues facing middle-class families aren’t as feel-good to the readership of the NY Times, but are complicated and just as compelling to my way of thinking. </p>

<p>Yes, middle-class families with children of college age have more choices–as has been pointed out to me on multiple occasions–but that by no means makes the job of getting them through any easier. It just doesn’t make as good a story.</p>

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<p>I was a bit surprised by this statistic so I did a little digging.</p>

<p>I am aware of the financial industry frequently reporting a dismal savings rate for Americans but their numbers don’t include retirement savings which most would consider odd. The financial industry wants to manage as much of your money as you’ll give them so that they can earn fees from that management.</p>

<p>I did a search on your statistic and found that the source from the New York Times article is:</p>

<p>[Retirement</a> Account Balances by Income: Even the Highest Earners Don’t Have Enough](<a href=“404 – Error: 404 - The New School SCEPA”>404 – Error: 404 - The New School SCEPA)</p>

<p>“Three quarters of near retirees (ages 50 to 64) have annual incomes below $52,201, with an average total retirement account balance of $26,395 . When stretched out into an annuity over an average retirement lifetime, this sum does not provide a significant addition to a monthly Social Security benefit (see Table 1.)”</p>

<p>The source for their data was the US Census Bureau and only used Defined Contribution Retirement Account Balances. This means 401Ks and IRAs. It doesn’t include savings accounts, employee stock accounts, employee stock options, brokerage accounts, cash, real estate, savings bonds. Most importantly, it doesn’t include pensions. There are so many sensational articles out there - those on CC should be a little better in doing a little digging when the article doesn’t smell right. Those writing such articles should do a more realistic job of painting the true picture.</p>

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<p>There are so many of them!</p>

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<p>Asians were a lot lower at Boston College when I started. Probably
less than 2%. I only knew one other Chinese person on campus (I still
remember his name).</p>

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<p>I only got an idea as to the wealth that kids had several years later. Boston College did serve a lot of middle-class (Irish Roman Catholic) kids back then but there were also those from the wealthier suburbs. I never felt that anyone was looking down at me or had a superior attitude. But maybe I was just clueless about such things.</p>

<p>I’m amazed at the difference today when I drop in at Boston College. The place exudes wealth (that’s not a bad thing unless you’re looking for something else).</p>

<p>BTW, I didn’t do well with grades my first year. GPA was something like 2.5. I didn’t have any guidance on college and I spent most of my time either on the tennis court or in the computer lab or at my part-time (18 hours per week) job. It was nice of them to give me a shot though.</p>

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<p>Well, it depends on what you mean by middle-class. If you’re using the median, then at least one of the three girls was middle-class. If you’re using the more nuanced numbers of $80K to $250K, then you might not get a lot of sympathy or articles from the New York Times. Those making more have different problems but they usually have more choices available to them.</p>

<p>If you want to see more articles geared to this higher income range, I’d suggest reading the Wall St Journal. Their college articles, often behind a paywall, seems more geared to the higher range definition of middle-class.</p>

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<p>Ha! Right on both counts. </p>

<p>Judging from the iconographic that goes with the story they could have just as easily written this story with families making $65K since the success rate is not markedly better. The story would have been just as valid with Annie Accountant or Peter Paralegal but the Times is in the business of serving up big ladles full of what Times’ readers want.</p>

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<p>I think you have to remember that class and income aren’t always the same thing. Being in the situation, myself, I know that even if money isn’t the major hurdle, first generation students and new immigrant families can often be at a disadvantage during the college process. We are fine financially, but no college experience and my husband can’t read very well, so my oldest didn’t have the best information available to her. Thank God for CC, though, because I learned a lot on behalf of subsequent kids! I have always thought that the adjustment to college was tougher for kids whose families didn’t know the ins and outs. My oldest D had significant trouble with registration in her freshman year. She/we just didn’t know the questions to ask. Sometimes support from high schools/colleges doesn’t have to be in the form of money.</p>

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<p>The idea that the NYT doesn’t cover middle class issues is pretty ludicrous given the dozens I’ve seen posted here at CC over the years.</p>

<p>I agree with zoosermom, it’s hard for us to even realize the hurdles first generation college families have, much less ones that have to deal with lower incomes. </p>

<p>As for the original article - I think that what Emory did - assume the girl was lying about her income - was disgusting.</p>

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<p>My mom has saved nothing for retirement. Not sure of my dad.</p>