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<p>So where do you think the tax dollars come from? I am all for helping lower income people. However, once a person is given the financial gift of money to attend college it is incumbent upon THAT PERSON to succeed, not the rest of the world. I am not feeling sorry for the girls in the NYT article.</p>
<p>Proudpatriot, I don’t think you get it. Support services at colleges are available to ALL students, not just those with financial need. Plenty of middle- and upper-class students take advantage of academic counseling, career services, and everything else the poor kids do. Tax dollars support people at all income levels too. Again, you are free to send your children to colleges where only people of “desirable” backgrounds and income levels can afford to go. Fortunately for the rest of us, most colleges foster a more diverse and inclusive atmosphere that we are happy to support with our taxes and tuition dollars.</p>
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<p>We all can’t be as perfect as you, or Beliavsky, or argbargy. People of substance care about helping other people. People not of substance give off the “let them eat cake” vibe.</p>
<p>BC, concerns me when we assume there may be addl retirement set aside in savings accounts, employee stock accounts, employee stock options, brokerage accounts, cash, real estate, savings bonds and pensions. All that still depends on the right job, what an employer offers and what’s left, after paying bills, to afford those. The DR point is that too many are not prepared. Too many spend all they have, for whatever reasons.</p>
<p>For me, one of the problems with media articles is that the “community” they address is so large, a national readership. They need to capture our attention, so it’s written in a certain way, hits a nerve. Then what? Leaves it easy to be angered, then shrug our shoulders and blame either the girls or the colleges. (Or the particular media source.) We don’t always know what’s real, what’s missed- or how to make things better.</p>
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<p>My mother has no IRA and no 401K. But she does have two pensions, social security, dividend-paying stocks, bonds, and a home worth about $700-$800 thousand. She would have $0 in retirement savings according to the statistic that 75% of near-retirees have less than $30K in retirement savings. She’s pretty amazing in that she’s self-sufficient.</p>
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<p>I think that kids need more of the way in advice, in both high-school and college. Some schools have very good alumni networks that could help out with the latter.</p>
<p>concerns me when we assume there may be addl retirement set aside in savings accounts, employee stock accounts, employee stock options, brokerage accounts, cash, real estate, savings bonds and pensions. All that still depends on the right job, what an employer offers and what’s left, after paying bills, to afford those. The DR point is that too many are not prepared. Too many spend all they have, for whatever reasons.</p>
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<p>The DR point lies with statistics to make things worse off than they
seem. Unfunded pension liabilities are estimated to be in the
trillions of dollars. I don’t have a number for funded pension
liabilities but I’m pretty sure that the total numbers would move the
needle on savings quite a bit.</p>
<p>Sure, there are many that aren’t prepared for retirement. But we don’t
have an accurate picture from your DR. How do you work, analyze, plan
and legislate based on inaccurate information?</p>
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<p>Find better news sources or do your own fact-checking.</p>
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<p>Like the fearsome tripple-dog-dare, the simultaneous “we cant all be perfect” and “I’m superior” in the same paragraph are rarely seen in competition.</p>
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<p>You did a very good job of putting words in my mouth. I said nothing of wanting people of “desirable” background. I would venture that my own ethnic background is considered undesirable by many.</p>
<p>The things that I am discussing have nothing to do with keeping anyone out of any university. What I am discussing is that once an opportunity is provided to a person it is that person’s responsibility to become successful. It is not the responsibility of a university to coddle someone who has been presented with a great opportunity to attend a university.</p>
<p>It is hard for me to feel sorry for people who can’t follow instructions, don’t check their email, miss deadlines or make poor personal decisions. Lower income people do not have any monopoly on those things.</p>
<p>^I have to agree with that. :</p>
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Pizzagirl clearly thinks she is better than the people she mocks as perfect.</p>
<p>To help people you need to be realistic, but educational policy in the U.S., for example the ideas that lots more people should get a bachelor’s degrees, is driven by what Charles Murray calls “educational romanticism”. The girl who was allowed to take on further debt to take upper-level courses in psychology while getting D’s in lower-level courses was not being helped (see post #47).</p>
<p>Employers demand expensive educational credentials rather than standardized test scores in part because of the fear of disparate impact lawsuits. If employers were free to use tests or more accepting of online degrees, lower- and middle-income students would feel less pressure to take on debt to get a BA.</p>
<p>Proudpatriot, I guess it depends what you mean by “coddle.” Is going to an academic advisor being “coddled”? Is seeking mental health services being “coddled”? Is a student-athlete in the dining hall “coddled” because he/she eats more than other kids? What is your issue with low-income people particularly? </p>
<p>In any case, it’s not about feeling sorry for these students. It’s about understanding how much tougher the road is for some kids to succeed in college. This “I’ve got mine, ___ the rest of you” attitude is just so hypocritical, especially considering that a lot of people who CAN pay full tuition for their kids have also been the beneficiaries of tax breaks and policies that have allowed them to pocket college savings where others have not been so fortunate.</p>
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<p>They don’t, it’s true. </p>
<p>I personally would look for a school that would do a little hand-holding the first year. </p>
<p>One thing I’d like to see: a system that requires email activation…send a link to the new .edu address with instructions to click it, if they don’t within a certain timeframe, follow up with those students to be sure they know where and how to log in and get access. Colleges communicate with kids via one email address, the one used during the application process, then at some point switch to a U address. That switch can be messy if it isn’t well designed and some backup planned for kids who miss it. I think we’ve all had an important message go into a spam folder or whatever…schools should make sure students know how to receive communication from them. At some schools this is handled in person during orientation…that’s fine too, as long as it is clear that communication is happening.</p>
<p>I think a strong freshman advisor system, where there are mandatory meetings at certain intervals and perhaps communication when a grade is low, or whatever, would serve students well. </p>
<p>Programs of this nature would, I believe, improve retention and make a smooth transition for new students from all backgrounds.</p>
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<p>If a student needs a special program to tell him to do things he should already be doing that is coddling him. If you want to get ridiculous have fun with that.</p>
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<p>Good job of again putting words in my mouth.</p>
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<p>They have that system but they only use it for rich kids. Thats why only Angelica had this problem.</p>
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<p>That would never happen!
As we learned from the HYP corruption thread there can never be a lawsuit without a smoking gun memo- preferably several, and counter signed. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/nyregion/new-haven-firefighters-settle-race-discrimination-claims.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/nyregion/new-haven-firefighters-settle-race-discrimination-claims.html</a>
[Judges</a> orders millions paid in NYC firefighter bias case - CNN](<a href=“http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-08/us/us_new-york-firefighter-lawsuit-bias_1_vulcan-society-black-firefighters-entrance-exam?_s=PM:US]Judges”>http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-08/us/us_new-york-firefighter-lawsuit-bias_1_vulcan-society-black-firefighters-entrance-exam?_s=PM:US)</p>
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<p>On a campus which was dominated by a mix of neo-hippies and doctrinaire Marxist-Leninist/Maoists, definitely.* Any displays of mainstream upper/upper-middle class background tended to be looked down upon as a sign was was at best, clueless about the negative effects of Western/American capitalism or at worst, a bourgeois capitalist tool themselves. </p>
<p>It was comical and annoying to watch/experience at the same time. Especially considering many had families with enough money to send them abroad in HS for “charity trips”, fancy private schools with tuition costs rivaling those of elite private colleges, and sometimes not knowing much/anything about FAFSA process because their parents were comfortably full-pay. </p>
<p>They also don’t seem to appreciate much dissent or have any sense of humor in poking fun at their “heroes”. </p>
<p>This still seems to be apparent after the reactions I received recently when I posted a parody of the Internationale song from youtube entitled: “The Internationale (Left-Wing Parties) Parody, ThDubya” [The</a> Internationale (Left-Wing Parties) Parody, ThDubya - YouTube](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFWFkDAuM4]The”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFWFkDAuM4) on an alum forum. </p>
<p>Fortunately, I do have some college friends of the same/similar political persuasions who still have their humors intact. They loved it. :D</p>
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<li>The college has since mellowed down and most younger alums/students seem to be much more politically mainstream in the last several years.<br></li>
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<p>It wasn’t comparing grades. </p>
<p>Just noticing concerned and sometimes frantic discussions from those same classmates about struggling/having to work harder as the first semester wore on, failing courses, being concerned about placed on academic probation, and reactions of finding out they’ve slammed into the academic wall and that college wasn’t like high school. </p>
<p>Something which struck me as odd as I had the exact opposite experience despite taking a heavier courseload than most of them against the advice of my academic adviser.</p>
<p>As for comparing grades with being bourgeois, that’s interesting. Most people I’ve known…especially those from the upper/upper-middle classes tend to look down on such behaviors as those of highly ambitious working/lower-middle class families. </p>
<p>Upper/upper-middle class families IME tend to avoid the discussion of grades unless they’re struggling/failing to get that “gentleman’s C/-B” as being too gauche/“hypercompetitive”. </p>
<p>This also seems to be borne out by the differences in emphasis of grades at my then mostly poor/working-class/lower-middle class HS versus a mostly upper/upper-middle class private LAC or the private day/boarding schools undergrad classmates & several cousins attended.</p>
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<p>Cobrat’s description of a college campus that resembled a one-party state helps explain why conservatives do not favor increased funding of higher education.</p>
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<p>Keep in mind that I am describing a campus as it was in the mid-late '90s and an extreme outlier for that period. From what I’ve seen and heard from many younger alums after 2003-4, it has mellowed down to the point many Marxist-Leninist/Maoists and neo-hippie alums are grumbing about the “hipsterization” and “mainstreaming” of our college. </p>
<p>It’s more likely today’s Obie student wears a Che, Mao, or other commie branded t-shirt to be “ironic” and are anything but serious in their intentions. Very different from undergrad classmates…especially older ones back when I attended.</p>
<p>First, Madabouttx, pls watch the politics or the thread may get shut down. Second, is it time for us to recognize that what WE went through in college is not always representative of what goes on now? </p>
<p>Plenty of kids, from whatever SES, aren’t really mature enough or savvy enough for college responsibilities. They eek their way through in the beginning, get a little help here and there, whether from a peer or adult. We’ve heard from a number of CC kids how they missed an email from a college during apps period. We know plenty here can’t determine a due date for info or what tests are required, by doing their own research. Not all, presumably, are one class or another, from families new to the college experience.</p>
<p>Face the fact that nearly every freshman out there starts college as his first experience away from home for more than a week or two. For most, it is some sort of leap from that high school/family context; some need guidance. That simple. Do I think they should be babied through, pushed to a degree that reflects more of the advisor’s ability that the kid’s? NO. But, if most of us are willing to give a new neighbor or coworker some guidance (or someone on an anon forum,) why not clue in some of the kids who need it? Because it’s “taxpayer funded?” Lots out there that our taxes support is frivolous and barely defensible. </p>
<p>The problem with the article is that it focuses readers on 3 stories only. My comment about how the media writes is the point that no one should automatically trust- or leap to conclusions based on one article or the tale of 3 girls. Yes, find a better source, do some of your own follow-up, if interested. Don’t just get all riled and angry because one source reported one way. And in the end, if you care, get involved.</p>
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<p>I didn’t know you were so familiar with Emory’s email system. So please enlighten us, do they in fact have an email verification requirement before switching over to using .edu email exclusively?</p>
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<p>You might also allow that it is possible that students from poor families do not have broadband internet access at home and that accessing email may be a bit more difficult for them, perhaps requiring a trip to a library or friend’s home or the like.</p>
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<p>People on CC will typically answer such questions by referring to college web sites. Seventeen-year-olds who cannot do this may not have the reading comprehension skills needed to study at the college level.</p>
<p>Some, but not all, college websites have a checklist of sorts with due dates & deadlines as an aid during the application process. That is about as much help as aspiring students need, whether they have parental help or not. And it levels the playing field in a way, regardless of how much each family is charged for tuition.</p>
<p>But if a specific school wants to help along a comprehension-challenged applicant aside from that, I suppose it’s their prerogative to do so, although that wouldn’t exactly foster an air of personal responsibility for that student down the line–eventually there will be a day of reckoning. And I’m sure admissions have heard every excuse in the book, no matter what the SES.</p>