Socioeconomic class and college success

<p>from mathmom:

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<p>It was disgusting, and appalling. I wouldn’t have believed it if they hadn’t done it to me too. “We think you have other assets you didn’t disclose.” Basically, “we think you’re lying.” And most families, hearing this news, are forced with the awful decision: beg borrow and borrow some more to keep their child at Emory, or start all over again someplace else. So if you manage to pay the tuition, the financial aid office is vindicated – “see? I knew they had money they could use!” It’s like the Salem witch trials. If you float, you’re a witch (and you’re burned at the stake); if you drown, you’re innocent. Phew!</p>

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<p>Cobrat’s description of a 1990’s Oberlin seems merely to reflect Cobrat’s general obsession with noting what a few people may think, and then treating their opinions as a) generalizable to everyone around them and b) really important and something you should base your whole life around. There’s no self-confidence about doing what you want to do and simply not caring one way or the other around what others might think. Nope, it’s all about how your choices are “regarded” by any combination of the following: high school classmates, high school administrators, high school classmates’ parents, college classmates, or innumerable cousins and friends, who supposedly all have very strong feelings on every topic under the sun. And the only way to make note of other people’s opinions is either to follow them slavishly for fear of being “regarded” well, or do the exact opposite just to get a rise out of them. </p>

<p>I don’t believe it for an instant, to be honest. Yeah, Oberlin’s on the more liberal side, but I don’t believe for an instant that EVERYONE at Oberlin went around caring what EVERYONE else thought / did / said on every topic under the sun. Most people are just concerned with their daily lives and topics. Cobrat is unusually sensitive in this regard.</p>

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<p>If a high-priced college admits a poor student who thinks she is getting $40K of financial aid, and she is on the verge of losing it through inaction, I do think the college should call the student and ensure that she knows where she stands before it is too late. It did trouble me that a low-income student lost $40K before she even started. That is a lot of money!</p>

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<p>Of course, that was a small private school.</p>

<p>Then again, perhaps the type of conservatives who want to preserve socioeconomic class as an inherited entitlement rather than something achieved with one’s own ability and effort are not interested in offering educational opportunity for the next generation.</p>

<p>^ yes, it seems like a lot of money to lose because emails weren’t answered. Someone should have picked up the phone to say “hey, the vast majority of the FA we offered to your family is in jeopardy if you don’t respond to us with blah blah form”.</p>

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<p>You see how well that line of thinking worked with the old-line WASPs who used to dominate the Ivy League and who got their children in via having the headmasters at their children’s boarding schools shake hands with Ivy adcoms. Those days of entitlement are gone.</p>

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I don’t know about most schools, but I know Harvard says that a typical student’s costs are not covered by tuition. In fact financial aid is subsidized by the endowment. Something I am happy to contribute my small bit to every year. Harvard and schools like it need more low SES students.</p>

<p>Even though the days of entitlement are gone, we all benefit by the fact that those (WASP) families (including my extended family) gave generously to these schools creating endowments that have allowed them to spread the wealth.</p>

<p>As a full-pay-x-2 parent, it’s hardly as though I would trade places with someone who is low income just because, oh, geez, they pay less for college. The normal, healthy way to look at being full-pay is to feel blessed that one is fortunate enough to BE full-pay, not to be a resentful person.</p>

<p>Think how blessed you will be when they raise the full pay tuition to fund sherpa positions to open students email for them. </p>

<p>Whee!</p>

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<p>Of course. Most people couldn’t conceive of the level of PC or the “leftier than thou” ****ing matches that were prevalent among undergrad classmates during my time there or older alums. </p>

<p>I just regarded it as a good way to amp up my debating chops, free entertainment from such classmates, and a bit of begrudged admiration at how much more politically/socially engaged they are compared with most mainstream undergrads at other respectable/elite colleges. Back then, if you were Green or further right, you were “too right wing”. </p>

<p>Nowadays, I hear it’s more of a live and let live place where most students tend to be relatively center-left and are more obsessed with dressing/acting “hipster”. </p>

<p>Reasons which prompt grumbings from older alums on the alum mag/forums on how the college has been mainstreaming too much for the sake of USNWR ratings and attracting more “conventional students” who usually target higher ranked NE LACs.</p>

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<p>I believe this used to be true…not so much now. Some of the comments on this and other threads–not to mention everywhere else in the blogosphere–are really disheartening.</p>

<p>The full pay students in a sense do help subsidize those on financial aid, but not directly, but rather, that if a student doesn’t need aid, then another student who does will get more money. Almost any private school will tell you that the tuition doesn’t represent the full cost of tuition, and they are correct (this is true of private secondary and grade schools I will add), the operating costs of a university depend on interest from endowments to help make up the difference, or from current donations and such. </p>

<p>Aid in a school generally comes from the interest on endowments, they have pools of money (both need based and some merit based, though these days most aid is need based) that they can give out, and that can vary, depending on how their endowments are doing as well. </p>

<p>As far as the whole argument for legacy admissions, that this in turn generates donations to the schools, that has been blown out of the water, every study out there indicates that whether or not schools give legacy preferences, the amount of giving does not change, that the alumni of those schools well off enough to give that kind of money, do so without the implied strings that legacy admissions advocates claimed. Still, a kid who can pay full freight can get access to a school that a kid not needing aid might, the days of truly need blind admissions went out the door a long time ago, if for the basic fact that the cost of college has gone up so much, that interest on endowments can’t always keep up.</p>

<p>Malcolm Gladwell in “outliers” talked about the differences of opportunities in various groups and how it affects even gifted students. For example, for kids coming from middle/upper middle income families, where the parents are college educated, the parents actively encourage their kids to do things, they search out opportunities for them, have them try new things, whereas with kids from working class or poorer backgrounds, besides the financial limitations, because they themselves never experienced that kind of help, they can’t make the effort because they don’t know to (again, these are generalities, and they aren’t meant as a knock on anyone, far from it). It is funny, I grew up with college educated parents, my mom was not working class (her father worked for the controller of Union Carbide), my dad was (my grandfather was a stone mason from Italy) but got his degree, yet neither of them understood that you don’t sit back and let kids tell you what they want, that you need to encourage them, have them try new things. Kids don’t understand, and often, for example, they feel badly asking for things that take time and money commitment from the parents…and having parents who understand that is huge, Gladwell profiled two students, both gifted, one from an upper middle income family, one from a working class family, and the contrast was glaring.</p>

<p>Likewise, poor kids get screwed with schooling, not just because of bad schools but also the summer break. Well off kids have their school work re-inforced over the summer break, they have educated parents who are talking to them or in front of them about things, they have access to books in the house, computers, and as a result don’t lose what they have learned, whereas with poorer kids the minute those doors close in June, they start losing it, and even if they had caught up to better socieconomic level kids by the end of school, by fall they were behind. </p>

<p>Part of the problem quite honestly is this is often cached in racial terms, and that is a big problem, because while race/ethnic group plays a role on what level someone is at, it also has left the perception that somehow that all people who are white, for example (or Asian), no matter their economic situation don’t need help, that it is ‘automatic’ for them, and that is ridiculous. There are a lot of kids growing up to white and Asian families where their story isn’t that much different from a black or hispanic inner city kid, parents not particularly educated, low family incomes (especially true in rural areas), not great schools and so forth.
The big mistake has been IMO making it racial, it rather should be socioeconomic. The black kid whose father is a doctor shouldn’t be getting the preferences over a poor white kid living in rural Alabama, because socioeconomically the black kid probably has had a lot more resources and shouldn’t need them. A lot of working class white families, struggling to survive, see this and resent it, because they aren’t exactly floating in wealth, and very few people go out of their way to help them, either, the emphasis is on poor black and hispanic (or other ethnic minorities) not on working class/poor/rural whites. I think as a country we need to look at socioeconomics a lot more closely when looking at what to do and put less emphasis on race. I don’t think that is going to happen, because I think for one thing it is join to make some of the Ayn Rand type conservatives a little nervous, when it shows what kind of privilege having money really does, that claiming all it takes is ‘hard work’ and ‘pulling yourself up by your bootstraps’ is a load of malarkey. It is funny, not long ago I read a superb biography of Andrew Carnegie, not exactly the most socially enlightened person, and yet even he, the epitome of the 19th century capitalist, said that the idea that people got ahead strictly through hard work and perseverance were mistaken, that without opportunity to enlarge their minds, without opportunity to improve their situation, all the hard work in the world won’t help. People in the higher socioeconomic groups, upper middle income and above (I would say middle, but that is fraught, for a number of reasons) simply have opportunities that are so common to them, they don’t realize it, it reminds me a lot of when straight couples will talk about how they get no benefit from being legally married and how they don’t make a big deal about ‘their sexual orientation’, which is hogwash, but because it is so part of the backdrop of their lives, they cannot even see the benefits or how pervasive their ‘orientation’ is manifested. I have heard the arguments, that the kid who goes to Andover or Phillip’s exeter or Choate have to work hard to get good grades, etc, and what that leaves out is a)not as hard as someone not going there and b)that going there they know, thanks to the old boy network, what they have to work hard at to get into an ivy league school or whatever, they already have learned the social networks and whatnot from mums and dads and family and friends, something a poor white kid from the Alabama backcountry wouldn’t even dream of knowing.</p>

<p>Pro Tip- There is no level of humbug that Gladwell wont fall for. He is not a reliable indicator of anything.</p>

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<p>I.e. need-blindness in admissions does not really help a student from a poor family if the financial aid office does not come up with a suitable financial aid offer to go with the admissions letter. NYU is well known for this type of thing.</p>

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<p>Resentful? No. What I am saying is that some people are given a great opportunity to attend college at a greatly reduced price. These people must take it upon themselves to pay attention to the things they need to do to be successful in college. If they don’t do what they need to do I don’t feel sorry for them.</p>

<p>I would not trade places with a poor person for all the tea in China.</p>

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<p>All of the tea in China is worth quite a bit, so a poor person who has that much tea probably won’t be poor for very long.</p>

<p>Proudpatriot: But you were also saying (or SEEMED to be…not trying to put words into your mouth:)) that you didn’t want your tuition dollars going to provide support services to poor students who needed them. You seemed to suggest that they should be just left hung out to dry and if they couldn’t cut it, tough luck. </p>

<p>Back to the point of the article, what I took from it was that there is a lot more than ability to afford tuition that determines whether a student from a low SES background can succeed in college. To focus solely on the financial aspects is to miss the bigger picture, in my opnion.</p>

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<p>Yes, that’s fair. I didn’t have huge sympathy when the one young woman hadn’t checked her email, or made the decision to major in a subject where she had gotten a D. (Not because the subject was psychology – unlike the STEM-uber-alles people on here, I certainly see people with psych majors having good careers – but because it was a weak subject for her.)</p>

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<p>I enjoyed your post, musicp. This part though gave me pause…I agree the black kid of a doctor has many advantages over a rural Alabama kid, but do you think there’s any difference in opportunity between a rural Alabama kid who is black vs one who is white?</p>

<p>(and not to pick on the south…sub rural Ohio kid, black vs. white if you prefer…same issues, IMO, with only the somewhat longer legacy of slavery, segregation and Jim Crow in the south, perhaps).</p>

<p>“comprehension-challenged” ? How 'bout some kids without family college experience, who have no frame of reference (yet) for what college decisions entail? No “me” or most of the rest of us here to have that conversation, help them through the first new challenges, which they have never encountered before- and no one close can walk them through. A backboard, someplace to get some mentoring- not, for heaven’s sake, taking away their responsbility or encouraging dependence. </p>

<p>That said, yes, she should have checked her email. I personally don’t think we’re talking about kids who don’t know email and social media exist. But the point isn’t to minimize and focus on that, then diss academic and personal support for what good it can do.</p>

<p>Btw, D2 was a mess during her first two years at a highly selective, despite our ability to support and advise. She picked a major based on her deep interest, despite not getting a good initial grade. The difference is my D2 has two savvy parents who could provide some emotional net. She’s thriving now, but it was touch and go. I say, it’s worth the expense to have a few counselors there for kids who may be on their own, trailblazing. There may be losses, but I prefer to focus on the potential wins.</p>