<p>I hate that graduating in 5 years is being made out to be such a terrible thing. I’m starting at Madison next year well aware that I’m entering into a 5-year program and I couldn’t be happier! Madison is an amazing place and I know that I will leave there very well prepared and at the top of my field, more so than at a university where I am rushed and pressured into graduating in 4 years. I realize that it’s another year that I will have to pay for, but I think it’s worth the opportunity to get a strong education and be the best that I can be.</p>
<p>It’s hardly surprising that your son, who was sufficiently motivated and did well enough in high school to get accepted at U-Va, will graduate from UW in four years. This says more about your son than UW.</p>
<p>My point with respect to Tulane and Case Western is that I suspect that posters like Barrons consider UW to be a better school than both. So do I, in fact.</p>
<p>Look, I’m not saying that UW is a bad school. I think it’s a great school. But its low four year graduation rate IS a problem, detracts from its reputation, and keeps it out of the top tier of American universities. UW itself has recognized this, and as I’ve previously shown it’s something that concerns at least some UW students as well. UW loses the battle with U-Va, Michigan, UNC, etc., for top out of state applicants at least in part because out of state parents and students look at the price tag and relative lack of financial aid and get very nervous when they see that on top of that almost half of all undergraduates need more than four years to graduate.</p>
<p>Yet it takes 4.2 years, on average, to graduate from UVA, U Mich, etc… the same as UW Madison. Some kids take longer. But why?</p>
<p><a href=“http://apa.wisc.edu/degrees/TTD_byMajor_Peer%20Comparison.pdf[/url]”>http://apa.wisc.edu/degrees/TTD_byMajor_Peer%20Comparison.pdf</a></p>
<p>Is it advising?
Is it money?
Is it desire to complete additional degree work?
How long is longer than 4 years? 3 credits or 30 credits? If 3 credits does that really matter???<br>
Are some dropping out?
What’s the average age of the undergrad? Does this impact the numbers (more older, working students).</p>
<p>It seems there are too many questions for informed parents to look at this metric and decide - "gee, I’ll pay even more for Univ X becuase one measure says they graduate 12% more people within 4 years (like Cal Berk.). </p>
<p>Kind of like people who decide on a school because the students score 90 points higher on the SAT.</p>
<p>At over $10,000 less than Michigan, UW is getting many that can’t afford UM which also has little aid for OOS students or just feel UW is a better bargain. Why should it offer huge aid if it keeps the price down to begin with? UNC takes so few OOS students it really does not matter (and also explains much of the so-called prestige). The overall test score for UNC and UW are about even and UW is much larger. I don’t know how many cross applicants there are with UVa and UW but I’d guess it’s a bit more than UNC and not as many as UM.</p>
<p>The 4 year OOS grad rate at UW is around 60% and the 5 year rate is 80%. Most of the remainder were eventual transfers who did not stay at UW to graduate.</p>
<p><a href=“http://apa.wisc.edu/RetGrad/Students_RetnGrad_NonResidents.pdf[/url]”>http://apa.wisc.edu/RetGrad/Students_RetnGrad_NonResidents.pdf</a></p>
<p>Late to this thread. A couple comments.</p>
<p>First, cool your jets a little, barrons. You react to every slight criticism about UW as though you have been personally insulted. It’s fine to be a cheerleader but a little more grace in response would go a long way.</p>
<p>Now as to what appears to be the most significant point of contention here, whether UW has a lower “out in four” rate and whether that undercuts its standing in the first tier of American Universities. It seems first of all that the data presented above do not confirm that UW is significantly out of the mainstream in this metric. That said, I very much sympathize with any out of state parent or student being concerned with this issue. My son has been accepted to a number of top private universities and colleges, and to Wisconsin. As I weigh the substantial cost of those options, I definitely pay attention to time-to-graduation statistics. Although out-of-state tuition at Wisconsin remains not just a relative bargain as compared to top privates but in fact a significant bargain, it is certainly very fair for an out-of-state family to want to vet this statistic carefully.</p>
<p>On the other hand, as an in-state parent I can honestly say that my reaction to the idea that it might take an extra semester or even an extra year is “whatever.” The in-state cost is so reasonable (comparatively) that it is not a big issue, at least for me. This honestly makes me wonder whether you would find, statistically, that fewer in-state students graduate in four years than do out-of-state students. I suspect you would. Economics are a powerful motivator. And frankly I don’t think it’s that hard for a conscientious, self-directed student to navigate through in four years. Particularly those who bring some AP credits along to begin with, which I suspect would be the case for most out-of-state students good enough to be admitted.</p>
<p>There will, however, be a little less hand-holding at UW than at some other schools – as a faculty level undergrad advisor in our son’s probable major told us yesterday when we visited. But that’s not such a bad thing for a kid to learn. There’s no hand-holding once you leave, either. </p>
<p>Last thought, fresh in my mind after visiting yesterday. UW is a vast tangle in every respect. It requires forethought, planning and execution for a student to navigate the academics, the campus, the housing, the social issues, everything. But my God, what a University. The things they are doing out there are spectacular. The choices and options that students have are remarkable. The physical setting, even yesterday on a bizarrely, bitterly cold spring day (of course it will be 70 by Saturday) is breathtaking. </p>
<p>We have been around the country with our son visiting some of the very best Universities in the world. UW takes a back seat to none of them.</p>
<p>I see that barrons posted out-of-state statistics while I was posting. Thanks. If the statistic cited earlier of about 55% graduation in four overall is correct, this demonstrates it is higher for out of state students, although 60% is lower than I’m sure a lot of out-of-state parents would want to hear. </p>
<p>I wonder how UW’s transfer rate for OOS students compares to peer public flagships.</p>
<p>MilwDad,</p>
<p>Thank you for your thoughtful and gracious response. Obviously I struck a nerve with my use of the word “cachet” when explaining to to original poster that, no, it is not nearly as difficult to get into UW from out of state than it is to get into U-Va, UNC or Michigan. Ever since then I’ve been subjected to a irrelevant onslaught of attacks from barrons on the quality of U-Va’s GRADUATE programs in the sciences (an attack which, by the way, he makes time and again on other pages whenever anyone dares to ask whether U-Va is a good school for undergraduates). </p>
<p>Your points are very well taken. I’m sure you’re right about AP credits, although it’s a shame to suggest that students might need to get credits behind them before even enrolling in UW in order to graduate on time. </p>
<p>Sixty percent of out of staters graduating in four years is a disturbingly low number no matter how you slice it. If it’s because many such students are transferring, as barron suggests, that’s not a good thing either.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, the numbers for U-Va are 86 percent in four years and well over 90 in five and six – the highest by a considerable margin of any public university in the country. U-Va’s graduation rate for African American undergraduates is even more impressive, somewhere along the lines of three times UW. </p>
<p>Good luck to you and your son, and thanks again for your reasoned response.</p>
<p>I may have touched on this topic in another UW-Madison thread, but MilwDad is right on target with a UW student needing to think ahead, and that attribute being part of the learning process. Funny, I JUST got off the phone with D, who called & is meeting shortly with her 2nd advisor of the day, this one for a proposed second major. The introductory class for this major, the only prerequisite for every other class going forward, is about to close out on her because she doesn’t register until next Thursday. I told her to ‘work the problem’, and to seek finite answers, as in “if I can’t do X, can I do Y, and when I can I do it?”</p>
<p>There is a certain part of me that says, geez, for the 35K a year I’m shelling out, it should be a little easier for her to get what she wants. But another part of me is proud as hell of her for thinking on her feet and figuring out that there’s a lot of zigging & zagging in school, and in life.</p>
<p>As I said upthread, she had gotten substantial merit money at other Midwestern privates, where there are one-tenth of the students and probably a set path with a lot of hand-holding, to a 4-year graduation. I’d like to think she’s learning more in the life skills department this way. This won’t convince Nova in her defense of UVA, but to each his/her own.</p>
<p>Here’s the thing – it’s not an either/or proposition. You can be proud of your daughter without bashing “hand-holding” at small liberal arts colleges. Remember, too, that the comparisons I’ve been drawing aren’t between UW and small liberal arts colleges, but between UW and other large public universities.</p>
<p>The fact that you cannot comprehend that the quality of the faculty might be of some importance in choosing a school continues to amaze me. The ONLY way this is currently measured is by departmental faculty rankings which, yes, are intended to help graduate students select schools but certainly can and are applied to judging the overall academic quality of the institution (note: not the quality of the students). After all a big part of what you are buying is the quality of the faculty and facilities. Now these might not entail the same oohs and awes at a cocktail party when discussing the achievements of your issue but buyer beware too. If you are paying big money to have your child taught by some second-raters you should feel a little cheated. ( Like finding a Made In China label in your new Gucci bag)Smart rich kids will always do fine whether they go to UVa or some other school. It’s just getting the ticket punched. The good news is they are having more buses to Foxfield this year. Lead Editorial in the CD today . So yes, UVa is very different from UW.</p>
<p>[The</a> Cavalier Daily | Off to the races](<a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2010/04/09/off-to-the-races/]The”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2010/04/09/off-to-the-races/)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/article/24000_plus_descend_on_foxfield_for_annual_steeplechase_social_gathering/20967/[/url]”>http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/article/24000_plus_descend_on_foxfield_for_annual_steeplechase_social_gathering/20967/</a></p>
<p>Note to the uninitiated Foxfield is sort of the Kentucky Derby for wealthy prepsters and FFVs.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/article/24000_plus_descend_on_foxfield_for_annual_steeplechase_social_gathering/20967/[/url]”>http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/article/24000_plus_descend_on_foxfield_for_annual_steeplechase_social_gathering/20967/</a></p>
<p>[Foxfield</a> Races 2008: The Preview to End all Previews | cVillain](<a href=“http://cvillain.com/2008/04/16/foxfield-races-2008-the-preview-to-end-all-previews/]Foxfield”>http://cvillain.com/2008/04/16/foxfield-races-2008-the-preview-to-end-all-previews/)</p>
<p>Real mature response, barrons. You really helped the UW cause with this one. Guess he’ll never learn, Milwdad.</p>
<p>This has pointlessly devolved into a UW vs UVA argument. Both are excellent public universities, although there is truth that they are very different. UVA is smaller, more LAC like, and has a more pre-professional bent to it. UW is the quintessential sprawling land grant research university. Although it holds its own in the liberal arts and turns out many a pre-professional itself, it is a titan in the sciences and social sciences. I have nothing against LACs – my older son attends one and my younger son is still considering one. But they (and LAC-like Universities) are different from research Universities. In general (there will always be some crossover) I can’t see that UW and UVA compete for the same students any more than Berkeley and Emory do or Illinois and William and Mary do. And in addition to the institutional differences there are true cultural differences as well. Wisconsin is not just a hairy gaggle of t-shirted partiers who chug by night and study by day just as UVa is not just a clubby set of well-coiffed prepsters who sip their cocktails delicately and speak of Mr. Jefferson reverently. But there is some truth to both stereotypes.</p>
<p>Nova, where is the lack of maturity of which you speak? I thought the Foxfield stuff was gold. It sums up the difference in the functions and styles of the two schools perfectly. You keep ducking that the UVa faculty on the whole are not very accomplished academics. It’s just a fact like the average SAT scores. You are all about inputs (student SATs, etc) while I’m looking at the entire enterprise and the outputs. But you don’t want to talk about that.</p>
<p>MilwDad, outside Wisconsin many students might apply to UCB, Emory, UVa and UW. Kids in the Chicago and NY/NJ suburbs apply to these in droves. (Chicago>UVa not so much but lots in NY/NJ/DC)</p>
<p>I agree that UW is a titan in the sciences - at the graduate level. At the undergraduate level it’s not a titan of anything. It’s just another very solid school.</p>
<p>Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I’m a student in the sociology department (randomly selected out of one of our many #1 departments in the country) and all of the faculty educating me and whom I’m doing research with as an undergraduate are a part of that department which is ranked #1, does it not make the undergraduate students also a part of a that same “titan” department?</p>
<p>Nova, you’re becoming tiresome. Why are you still here?</p>
<p>MNbadger, you’re right, I was being flip, sociology is a singularly distinguished department. You should be proud.</p>
<p>The undergrads get opportunities to be with grad students doing coursework. A chance to do some work in a stellar grad lab as part of an undergrad lab course in chemistry. Taking grad level courses in math senior year (that extra, 4th year). Exploring linguistics in a 300 level course as a freshman year elective. There are many diverse depts with high rankings. UW is one of the truly great universities- despite nov…'s attitude. Frustration is a strange driving force causing people to waste too much time searching for justification. Statistics can be manipulated many ways to prove points. We are lucky this state values education so much, at all levels. Professors give students ways to get into classes. Too many choices for electives…</p>
<p>Sociology is one of Many distinguished UW depts. The Education School is ranked 12th (UVA 31), Engineer8ing is 12th (UVA 37), Business is 13 (UVA 6th!!), Art is 21 (UVa unranked), biosciencs UW 15th (Uva 42, Chemistry UW 7th (Uva unranked>50) , Biochemistry UW 6th (Uva unr), Comp Sci UW 11th (uva 29th)(Bill Gates has come to UW to recruit students calling it one of his core schools), Earth Sciences (geology etc) UW 14th (UVa unr), Math UW 14th (Uva 40th), Physics UW 16th (Uva 36th), Econ, UW 11th, (Uva unr), English UW 16th (Uva 12th!!), History UW 11th (Uva 19th), Poli Sci UW 16th (UVa unr), Psychology UW 9th, (Uva 28th), and Sociology UW 1 (Uva unr). Add in doznes of other areas not covered in US News including many areas of life sciences, meteorology, journalism, communications most of which UW has Top 10 depts in and you have more than just another good state school. You have a faculty that measure just below the overall Top 10 universities in the US with over 70 National Academy members vs around 20 at UVa, 19 Nobel Prizes vs 1 at UVa, 35 Pulitzer Prizes won by UW faculty and alums vs 10 or so. An average of 40+ major faculty awards won per year (Guggenheim, etc) vs around 19-20 at UVa, and one of the top 10 universities for producing new patented scientific discoveries (6th)</p>
<p>[IPToday.com</a> - Intellectual Property Today - The Universities Patent Scorecard 2009 University Leaders in Innovation](<a href=“http://www.iptoday.com/articles/2009-9-oldach.asp]IPToday.com”>http://www.iptoday.com/articles/2009-9-oldach.asp)</p>
<p>And the ever popular colleges producing most CEOs.</p>
<p>Table 2. Dominant Undergraduate Colleges & Universities, S&P 500 CEOs, 2004
Institution Number of CEOs
University of Wisconsin 17
Harvard University* 15
Princeton University* 10
Stanford University* 10
University of Texas 10
City University of New York 8
University of North Carolina 8
University of Washington 8
Yale University* 8
U.S. Naval Academy 7
University of Pennsylvania* 7
University of Missouri 6
Dartmouth College* 5
Duke University 5
Michigan State University 5
Northwestern University 5
University of Notre Dame 5
Ohio State University 5</p>
<p>Note: * Denotes Ivy League institution</p>
<p>pwned. Thank you, barrons. I’m hoping that’s enough to remove the one we may soon only be able to be classify as a ■■■■■.</p>
<p>I enjoyed that.</p>
<p>Now that we’ve established UW>UVA, let’s move on to UNC and UMich, the other two schools listed by the OP. </p>
<p>:)</p>