<p>I am studying for the LSAT, and I think that would be more useful than higher math for many kids.</p>
<p>You can teach thinking in many different ways.</p>
<p>Yesterday, I was listening to a debate on black holes and was hawkin correct. I didn't need calculus to enjoy the conversation, understand it and get my head to spin.</p>
<p>As for disciplines, comparing calculas to biology or history makes no sense. I have never read a magazine article where I needed my college math, but history, logic or lit came in handy as did my HS stats class. Even physics has is uses, but calc, never ever.</p>
<p>And I have asked people about this, really, and not one adult, besides the ones who used it at the work, found calc useful in any way. They did however, say the philosophy, and reasoning and ethics classes were much more useful and caused them to really think in meaningful ways.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone said that Calc is the culmination of HS math. BUT, a lot of math teachers (and admission persons) on cc recommend taking it in HS over college bcos of smaller class size, pace, and competition.</p>
<p>Wow, definitely lots to think about here. Thanks to all who suggested statistics. Son's HS does not offer AP Stats, but perhaps taking the regular stats class would be a compromise (some math--not the highest level but perhaps better than nothing). I probably also should emphasize that my question was not about AP Calc but just the regular Calc class. I'm not sure if all high schools are the same, but to take AP Calc my son would first have to take regular Calc. That (regular and then AP Calc) just is not going to happen. </p>
<p>I have to say that I sympathize with all sides of this issue. If it were up to me, I would have him take Calc, for many of the reasons posted here (exposure to a different way of thinking; mastery of challenging material; a foundation if he ever decides he wants to pursue a subject that requires it). But I am not going to compel him to take it, because he has decent reasons for wanting to take other classes (and while those other classes might not be as objectively difficult, I do believe he will get more out of them than he will Calc--he has a good short-term memory and can by studying enough before tests do well, but it does not stick with him). I actually feel quite fortunate that son loves school, and loves learning, and is looking forward to taking courses about things that are important to him. </p>
<p>Right now son is interested in languages and international affairs, so he does not see calculus as especially relevant. Which is not to say he should only study things that are relevant, but the benefits of the experience should outweigh the pain (and did I say son hates math?). I have to admit that I did not realize that calculus would be important for studying economics. I will present this to son, who would be most interested in the policy side of Econ rather than the technical side, but who might just see the Econ connection as a reason to rethink his decision about calculus. </p>
<p>As for the effect on college admissions of not taking calculus, my concern was not so much that he would be lacking a specific prerequisite but that he would not have taken the highest level math offered by his school. He is planning to apply to a wide range of liberal arts colleges, including some that are highly selective.</p>
<p>An introductory economics course (usually) does not require calculus. I took both AP Economics courses in high school and calculus was not necessary for either, and introductory economics courses at my college also do not use calculus. After that, though, calculus comes into play, at least at my school (thankfully--once you know how to do a problem with calculus, it can be frustrating to do it in a more roundabout, less elegant way without calculus!). I think if your son hates math, than there is no point in forcing calculus before it is necessary, although he might want to give consideration to the idea that it will likely be much less stressful to take calculus in high school than in college. Still, hate is a strong word--I hated biology, and if I had had to choose between taking AP Biology and not taking an AP science at all, I think I would have abstained from taking biology. I think that if a student takes the toughest class in each subject with one exception, that is most likely still good enough. Especially if the reason the student forgoes that subject is to pursue two classes in areas that do interest him, as is the case with your son. </p>
<p>Someone made a good suggestion upthread, which is that if he is especially concerned, he could take calculus at a community college so as to not sacrifice those other, more desirable classes. That may be too much work/pressure though--I'm not advocating that your son overload himself!</p>
<p>Rocketman: "I think it looks quite bad if you don't finish math (calculus generally being considered the conclusion of the high school math curriculum)."</p>
<p>I stand on my opinion. There is no "one size fits all" and if you have a child who does not like math, dreds Calculus, ground his/her teeth through Trig, probably isn't going into Engineering....etc...the decision isn't very difficult.</p>
<p>I didn't know schools offered "reg. Calc". Our school only offers AP Calc. Is "reg. calc. just a slower paced version of AP? If one took reg. calc when AP calc is offered, would it still be considered the "capstone or conclusion" to h.s math or is it more like an intro. class? </p>
<p>At our school, those who complete pre-calc. but don't have the stomach/aptitude or general inclination to take AP Calc. choose AP Stats or Honors Discrete Math. Our system requires four math credits to graduate.</p>
<p>Take the government course. We already have too many people in this country who think that doing math is more important than understanding government.</p>
<p>Coming to this party late, I have no new insights to add - just one more data point: D had great grades in math until she had a horrible precalc teacher. She refused to take AP Calc her senior year despite my begging and whining. As a compromise, she took AP Stats and loved it. (An added benefit: the class restored her math confidence, which had been annihilated by that horrible Pre-Calc class.) Another added bonus was the 5 she received on the AP test..... </p>
<p>She didn't apply to any big-time reachy schools, so we'll never know if the absence of Calculus really hurt her. However, there's something to be said for less stress your senior year, which is already stressful enough.</p>
<p>I was strongly encouraged to take AP Calc (AB) senior year of high school. I absolutely hated it, and didn't do very well (C+ in the class; somehow managed a 4 on the exam). The teacher wasn't bad--it's just that I was planning to be a government major in college and I had other priorities and stresses in my life so I didn't put in the time required for the class--and it would have required a LOT of time for me to do well in calc.</p>
<p>I think the bad grade on my transcript probably harmed me slightly in the admissions process, and it definitely decreased my interest in taking math in college. But as it happened, I took a stats course and fell in love with it. I minored in a math-related discipline (social science methodology) and ended up graduating with a national award for empirical research and as a member of a national statistics honor society.</p>
<p>Counterpoint story: my first-year college roommate didn't do that well at math in high school and never took calc. She signed up for it in college, worked hard, got a great professor, and ended up majoring in math and econ. She always said she just needed to mature enough to have the capacity to do calc--she wasn't ready at 17, but 18 was enough. She's an actuary now, so she basically does math for a living. </p>
<p>So--long story short--there are lots of kinds of math, and if you know your kid's the type who can't/won't/doesn't want to put in the time and effort to do well in calc, there's no need to force him to take it in high school. If he decides he wants or needs to take it in college, he can.</p>
<p>Have any of you or your kids ever had detailed psychological/intelligence testing? When my son was in 4th grade, we took him to a child study center for an all day work up (where his Asperger's was diagonosed). The results of his testing made me really understand that intelligence has so many compenents. Son was in the second semester of 4th grade. In some compenents, he tested at 3rd grade level. On others, he tested at above 12th grade level. He tested high at understanding of mathematical concepts, but low on computational skills (I had never known there was a difference.)</p>
<p>I'm bringing this up because not all of us have the aptitude for higher math. We aren't all above average in everything. My husband and I passed along terrible math genes. My husband (with a masters degree) can't add in his head....at all. My sister - who is brilliant on verbal matters - had to take Alegbra I three times in college before she passed it. I am a successful professional and the only math I do is a simple arithmetic. Not everyone is cut out for calculus. It is not essential for success in life.</p>
<p>My daughter hated math from kindergarten. She struggled with every math course she took, and, although she could have taken calculus senior year, it was clear that forcing her to do so was going to be cruel. She took AP Stats in senior year instead. </p>
<p>She has done just fine in college (still hasn't taken Calculus), and I'm sure she'll do just fine in life. </p>
<p>Admittedly, she will never be an engineer, and she may not be able to get a doctorate in science either. But, given her dislike for math, and the direction where her true talents and interests lay, both paths would be disasterous choices for her anyhow.</p>
<p>By the way, neither my husband nor I took calculus. We both ended up with Master's degrees and have had varied and successful lives. My son LOVES math, and AP Calculus BC was his absolute favorite college in high school. I'm sure he'll be taking lots and lots of math in college and beyond, but doing so doesn't make him any smarter or any more of a better person than the rest of the family. (Of course, he might beg to differ :) )</p>
<p>To the original poster: Much depends on where your son sees himself going for college. If he has a strong preference for colleges that do not have a math requirement, there are many that don't. If he's looking at colleges where some math is required, check to see whether a different math class senior year is available. If he is dead set on a "highly selective" university that admits fewer than 20% of applicants, however, he may have to bite the bullet. Ultimately, it's his choice because he's the one who has to actually sit down with his calculator and do the work or live with any consequences to not taking math senior year.</p>
<p>But, really, if he doesn't take calculus in senior year he will not end up homeless on the street. :)</p>
<p>At my sons' school, there are a number of kids who get into top (including HPY) colleges who do not take calculus. There are also kids who do not take the recommended sciences or 4 years of foreign language. This is something that needs to be discussed with a very good GC, and it depends on the school and the kid.<br>
There are schools where kids are so much into the most difficult curriculum that if someone does not take the calc, it could be a flag if the kid does not have something to offset that situation. Everyone else is going through that gauntlet and taking his chances, and if your son is doing so, taking a schloff course instead, it does paint a picture that may not be as complimentary. If there is a demonstrated passion and activity in something else that takes up the time that the AP calc course would take, it's one thing, especially if the kid is not interested in an area where calc is going to be needed.</p>
<p>
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Right now son is interested in languages and international affairs, so he does not see calculus as especially relevant. .... He is planning to apply to a wide range of liberal arts colleges, including some that are highly selective.
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In order to get into a highly selective college, the application should tell a consistent story and demonstrate that the applicant has a strong passion for learning. The high school transcript should show that the student seeks challenge and it should fit the story told in the essays and recs. A student who opts for econ and AP Government, as well as continued study of foreign languages -- has a record that fits the story. As I noted before, my d. has similar interests, a much weaker math record, and demonstrated success in college admissions. </p>
<p>I wouldn't worry about AP Stats. It sounds like your son has a full schedule, and as far as I know, and there seems to be a general preference among college ad comes to see stats taken in college rather than high school. </p>
<p>There is a flip side risk: if your son does not take classes like econ & government, then it weakens his profile within his intended major. That is -- an ad com might wonder why his transcript seems light in his areas of interest. So in a sense, when you try to cover all bases, you risk diluting the story -- it is harder for the ad com to get a sense of what differentiates a particular student when all the transcripts look the same. I know that my daughter had an extremely lopsided transcript, and I honestly think it worked in her favor, because I think it gave a much better sense of her personality and interests..</p>
<p>I have to say . . . I've seen the lopsided thing work and not work. It may well have worked to calmom's daughter's advantage, but I've seen kids who are legitimately passionate about one or two areas and whose transcripts (and everything else) clearly reflected that, and who had disappointing -- not terrible by any means, but somewhat disappointing -- results with highly selective colleges for which they were well in range statistically. </p>
<p>On average, I suspect applicants are better off being passionate, somewhat lopsided, and still getting As in AP Calculus BC even if they are not math types. (As to why that should be true: Who the hell knows? Not I.)</p>
<p>To tell the truth, it's hard to assemble a valid sample. The culture of taking calculus if it is available is so ingrained that there simply aren't that many really ambitious students who risk not taking it. Even my daughter, a completely humanities-oriented kid who had one of those math careers that Reviving Ophelia described -- hitting a wall at 14, although she stayed in accelerated math for two more years -- and who was frozen out of AP Calculus when she changed schools, thought she had to take Honors Calculus at least. I really only know a couple of kids who applied to tippy-top schools and who passed on calculus. The fact that neither of them was accepted means about as much as other people's anecdotes of similar kids who were accepted.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of the input. Son is still thinking it over, and had added statistics as a third possibility (its not AP Stats, which his school does not offer, but at least it is a math class). And he hasn't ruled out calculus, although he would really like not to take it, if the consequences for college admissions won't be too dire. He is going to talk to the counselor next week, but unfortunately she is unlikely to know much about admissions to highly selective schools (most kids from son's school who go to college go to the local state university). </p>
<p>I have found responses to this question have revealed a lot of differences in the way that different high schools operate, and the importance of not making assumptions that everyone's high school works the same. For example, son's school is on the block system, which means he takes four or five classes each semester rather than seven or so over the course of the school year. So those who suggested that taking calculus in high school would be a better experience than taking it in college because in high school the class would be spread out over a whole school year were helpful but in an odd way (suggesting that for my son, taking calculus in high school might not be better than taking it in college). And someone asked why can't he take all three (calculus, econ and AP gov). Another poster essentially answered this--it's because there is only one calculus class and one AP gov class and while they do not directly conflict, his other classes are scheduled at times that would make it impossible for him to take both. As for regular calculus and AP calculus being two separate classes, all I know is what it says in the course descriptions, which is that Ap calculs is a continuation of the regular calculus course. </p>
<p>In a way it's frustrating not to have a definite answer to how not taking calculus will factor into admissions, but I guess at these schools a lot is unpredictable.</p>
<p>
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In a way it's frustrating not to have a definite answer to how not taking calculus will factor into admissions, but I guess at these schools a lot is unpredictable.
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</p>
<p>That sums it up nicely. :)</p>
<p>Last year, a admissions rep on cc (AdOfficer, if I remember correctly), posted that s/he gave plus factors to kids who took Calc, but another admissions rep at the same college gave tips to kids who were involved in theater. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw on who reads the app.</p>
<p>But, to your last point....suggest you check on how Stats (college prep?) will be viewed by your GC relative to strength of schedule. (AP Stats in itself is not a difficult course, so I would assume that the college prep version would be even easier.)</p>
<p>I'm very late to this thread, but my D has been struggling with this very issue and I remember posting about it on another thread a long time ago. </p>
<p>D's a rising HS junior and is pretty lopsided in favor of Writing/Reading as opposed to Math skills, and so far her PSAT and early SAT scores(taken in 8th grade for a summer program) show this. She tries hard in Math but is generally a B+/A- student in that particular subject and it's increasingly becoming a struggle for her. So far, in high school she's taken Geometry, Algebra II and will be taking Pre-Calculus this coming year. She's also took a computer programming class during her freshman year which is, in our school district, anyway, classified as a Math class, so her transcript will show, by the end of her junior year, that she will have completed 4 units(years) worth of math classes. </p>
<p>With that in mind, like the OP's son, D would hoping to not have to take Calculus(or Statistics) during her senior year. It's not like she'll be slacking off by any means; she's planning to take at least 4 AP level classes Senior year. (And she'll be taking 4 AP classes during her junior year.) Furthermore, my D intends to study English/Creative Writing with perhaps a minor in journalism, in college. At first I was concerned about her skipping Calculus, fearing that most colleges would expect to see Calculus, or at least some other Math class on her transcript for senior year, but then I decided to not to force her to take a class that she would hate just to please some colleges. However, we recently discovered that one of the colleges that she's particularly interested in, does explicitly mention on their website that they <em>recommend</em> that prospective students take Math classes throughout high school all the way up to Calculus, regardless of their intended major, also mentioning that Calculus is preferred over Statistics. So now she's back to wondering if she should just bite the bullet and take Calculus after all. At least she's got several months until she has to pick her senior year classes.</p>
<p>^^Mom: think about the gazillion of english lit majors...and then think about those (much fewer) that complete calc. IMO, it's one way for an english lit kids to stand out, assuming a B is possible.</p>
<p>Ah, bluebayoo, you said it: "assuming a B is possible." There are the kids who have the aptitude for Calc but don't necessarily like the idea; then there are the kids with no aptitude for whom it will be a stuggle to even pass. </p>
<p>My son has taken two Classes He Never Should Have Taken: pre-AP Chem (instead of regular) and AP Bio. Those classes made the school year SO STRESSFUL, as he stuggled to pass. Texas has "no pass no play" so had he brought home anything below a 70 on his report card, it would have meant no ECs. That is no way to spend your senior year, so I agree-if you don't think you can get at least a B in Calc, don't take it!!!</p>
<p>Yes, that's definitely the issue. Much of the decision will ride upon how she does in Pre-Calc during the first two marking periods. I really appreciate the input.</p>