<p>
[quote]
I guess I have never really heard of an "innocent" kid getting kicked out of a school for the first infraction.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>weenie, I am not basing my posts on the kid being innocent. A guilty werewolf deserves representation , also. ;)</p>
<p>CGM, drinking is not celebrated at frats at my kids' school. The frats are watched more closely and busted more often than anyone. Just over the past few months, a fraternity was searched by the campus police who found, gasp, something like 5 grams of weed and some pipes/bongs. This fraternity has been expelled from campus. How many private homes/apartments are randomly searched by university officials?</p>
<p>by celebrated, look at the Penn video, that was a HUGE group of kids and you have to know that most were probably underage, yet, those kids seem to have no fear of getting caught, they were out in public with beer everywhere, but gee, no school checking it out, and we all know that happens alot more than the few that get publically reprimanded</p>
<p>Quote:
"She just lost it for the semester. She got it back for the next year (subject to grades....) It is a ROTC scholarship."</p>
<p>Whoa up and reel back a bit on this one, about the student at Miami of Ohio who lost a scholarship for a semester due to coming home drunk; the poster later clarified that it was an ROTC scholarship - a huge and critical distinction.</p>
<p>ROTC scholarships are offered and administered by the service branches with the Department of Defense - Army, Air Force, and Navy (which includes both Navy and Marine Corps). This a very different beast than a scholarship offered by the college. Usually these scholarships cover some or all of the tuition, textbooks, pay a monthly stipend, but do not cover the room and board. $13k a semester for Miami of Ohio sounds like about the Out of State tuition.</p>
<p>Guessing a bit here, but it sounds as if the student came home drunk, was reported to university by the RA, went through whatever university discipline process is in place - and that process then became a formal notification of drunkenness was made to the military unit staff. </p>
<p>The military officers of the unit staff might have been convened in a fairly formal hearing, and elected to place the cadet / midshipman on suspended leave for a semester, with reinstatement possible for good behavior. Mids / cadets in ROTC programs are not subject to the UCMJ, but my understanding is that the unit officers are fully empowered by the DOD and their service branch to make decisions about awarding or continuing ROTC scholarships. And since their mission focuses on the development of future officers, they tend to have a very low tolerance for any violation of the law. (and yes, I am no fan of the 21-year old drinking age). Sustained violations could result in loss of not just the scholarship, but also the opportunity to be commissioned as an officer on graduation.</p>
<p>There are some cases where it can make sense for the parent to intervene with a college administration, but <em>not</em> with a military staff. The parent will encounter an Army or Air Force Colonel / Lt. Colonel, or a Navy Captain, with 20++ years of service and experience running a ship or a regiment. Their focus is only on the candidate and their performance, and they are used to making very tough decisions and standing behind them. There is no gain for student or parent if the parent butts in.</p>
<p>Now, that said, there is some interesting thought by some in senior service ranks about the negative impacts of the age 21 drinking restriction. The population of the military services is peopled with as much a mix of 18 to 20 year olds as any college - and they deal with many of the same issues. The recently retired Sgt. Major of the Marine Corps has made some very strong remarks about the deadly impact of the drinking age rules - forcing young Marines to drive far off base to get beered-up, then getting killed driving back to base on twisty back country roads. It would be interesting to see him on the same podium with the recently retired president of Middlebury College, who is now making many similar points. The itony is that these men - experienced teachers and instructors of young people - can only speak to truth when they retire. <off soapbox="">.</off></p>
<p>Weenie, I would not rush into the school's disciplinary process with guns blazing and all lawyered up if it is a reasonable process, and I took that to be what Curm meant as well. Child guilty of first infraction (wouldn't matter to me if they were an innocent bystander or not, part of the lesson is what happens by association, watch who and how you socialize, etc), gets a reprimand, alcohol education, community service, loses dorm privileges, etc., whatever, that I would consider reasonable, and would not interfere, other than what i said - talk the child through the process, try to model what to consider, how to handle the situation.</p>
<p>If the college's disciplinary process results in irrevocable consequences - like expulsion or complete loss of a scholarship, it then moves into the realm of an "arrest", and just as I would want my child to have representation, if they were arrested, I would want them to have some type of advocacy beyond their own in this situation with such grave consequences.</p>
<p>I would consider the situation of losing a scholarship for one semester as an "in between" situation, perhaps not needing an attorney, but maybe requiring junior to come up with some of the money to cover the cost.</p>
<p>Yes, the loss of the scholarship was due to the military officer ruling, but there was university punishment as well. </p>
<p>As for peeing in the bushes, I've learned that gets you a $50 fine at Penn.</p>
<p>I've heard of this occurring one too many times, and of course, each school handles the situation in its own way. Some are more lenient than others - the Catholic schools seem to be pretty strict - H was given permission to quickly use the men's restroom but was reprimanded on account of it. They tend to charge/fine people at the drop of a hat. We got that situation straightened out real fast.</p>
<p>Many schools now have Judicial Boards run by elected students as well as a faculty advisor. They expect their peers to be aware of the alcohol policies, and seems to me most students are. I would think it would be very rare for more than a stern warning to be issued to a first offender. As long as no property was damaged, or any other harm, this is more than likely the case. A warning, an alcohol education class, etc. I don't think parents are even notified in most cases until a second offense occurs, because it is probably at this point where the kid's at risk for expulsion, loss of scholarship, etc. should there be ONE more offense. Then I would think it is also up to the parent to quickly intervene with the CHILD'S behavior to remedy the situation before it is indeed, too late. Any school with a one strike policy obviously means business, but this seems ridiculous to me given the age and circumstances of the 'customers.'
Here's a scary one - I know a boy who was on a full ride for ROTC. Senior year he was caught twice, the parents were notified and spoke sternly with their son about all of the repurcussions he would face with another offense, such as being expelled and/or kicked out of ROTC. Well, DS didn't listen. He indeed had a third offense, was not expelled from school, but was from ROTC. Big shock wave hit with that - he had to repay the military the $160k they had spent educating him. He is now an employed engineer, with most of his paycheck going to pay off that massive debt. But he was warned!</p>
<p>For all you who are certain your kid would NEVER, now you have something to consider when making a college choice.Because maybe they'll never, but IF they do, and get caught, what happens? Better be up on that when you make your choices. </p>
<p>Kids schools did the three strikes and your gone route. Different levels of counseling, classes and restrictions based on which number violation your at. </p>
<p>Everyone should have a conversation with their kids about if they choose to drink (legal or not) at school.</p>
<p>First, be descrete about it. Turning the stereo up, running up and down the halls begs the RA to get involved. Don't act like it's your first beer, even if it is. RA are attracted to noise in the same way a bug is to light. Don't advertise the fact your drinking.</p>
<p>Second, never keep booze bottles with booze in them in the room. Change em out. And honestly, saving emptys isn't a sign of coolness.. you can't make a table out of them (actual conversation) and it invites attiention.</p>
<p>third, don't drink till ya puke..you're gonna get in trouble, they have to use hazmat methods nowdays to clean vomit ($$$) and you risk getting hauled off to hospital. </p>
<p>Some of you may be amazed I have these kind of conversations with my kids, but no booze violations either.:)</p>
<p>That sounds like good common sense to me. Even cooking with wine can be risky.</p>
<p>Who'da thunkit? Son informs me that he got written up for a skateboard violation. I told him to look at the bright side- he didn't get tazed.</p>
<p>" he didn't get tazed."</p>
<p>:) That's dam funny....;)</p>
<p>I'm surprised by how draconian some alcohol policies are. Here, you're not violating the alcohol policies unless you are (1) playing drinking games, (2) serving to under-21s (as someone who is of legal age to serve), (3) drinking in public areas, or (4) caught possessing alcohol in public areas. I think I like it that way. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
As for peeing in the bushes, I've learned that gets you a $50 fine at Penn.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Makes those pay-to-use public toilets in Europe look cheap, even with the weak dollar. LOL</p>
<p>As i said earlier, 1of42, there is definitely a class system at work here. The students where I work are definitely treated differently from the students at the schools where my kids have gone. I am not sure why, but I can't think of any good reason.</p>
<p>I'll bet the security guy that busted the 5 guys who planned to drink the one beer wished he had stayed undercover long enough to watch that! How could he not cut those guys some slack? </p>
<p>I don't even know what to think about how strict the rules are these days. At good old William & Mary - never known to be the party school - the fraternities wheeled the kegs right into the stadium for football games and we just passed the cups up and they came down full. At least no one had to be sneaky. Are we just teaching the kids to be better sneaks? </p>
<p>I agree that you have to know what has happened in the past with these infractions and what could happen. Also find out if the parents of the other kids are getting involved - you may not want your kid to be the only ones whose parents aren't "supporting" their kids. Seems to me it would look good to the administration if the parents did get involved - maybe a public whipping or offering to provide the scarlet A - for alcohol- to be worn at all times.</p>
<p>Someone made a comment about the Penn State video and how the kids didn't see concerned about getting caught. Well, I will tell you that our son has a number of friends that have received underage drinking citations. Penn State and the State College police hand out TONS of them every year - more than most schools, even considering the large population. The thing that catches kids off guard is that it means an AUTOMATIC suspension of drivers license for 3 months. Second offense means an automatic suspension for 1 year! Not all of these kids are falling down drunk...some were caught in dorms where alcohol was being served, others walking home after drinking one or two beers. My son reports that most kids think the cops are "out to get them". Lovely.<br>
I agree that kids and parents should be fully aware of the policies and enforcement before selecting a school. Some schools look the other way (Penn) - others can be very strict (Penn State). We've heard that the judges in State College aren't very forgiving - so there's no hope for getting charges dropped or reduced.
Back to the OPs question, I would evaluate the consequences and if they're serious I WOULD get involved. The law is not perfect - busting a kid for being around other kids who are drinking seems a bit severe to me. Especially if the consequences are as serious as losing ones drivers license. They're kids as far as the law is concerned (on this narrow issue)- so why not help them figure it out?</p>
<p>the arrests while walking home stuff bugs me. At S school the local police would hide in the bushes and jump out and stop kids walking back from breakfast to campus early in the morning. They would demand breathalyzers and refusal had consquences(license suspended, fines) ..</p>
<p>When I got wind of that was going on.. I did what every parent should do, I dropped a letter to the editor of that town paper asking why in this community did the police force feel the need to spend taxpayer dollars hiding hoping to catch kids walking home? Meanwhile at the other end of town, homes were being robbed? Real crimes were being committed, real drunk drivers were on the road..yet with the limited manpower the police force has, 3 or 4 officers felt it was good policy to hide in the bushes and ambush the Denny's crowd? It appeared that if was safer to drunk drive than drunk walk home.. </p>
<p>Kinda funny but when someone is going through you car at one end of town you aren't too happy to learn of the police stake out on the college campus looking for students walking home... The practice soon stopped as some "sting" operations just aren't a good use of taxpayer dollars...:) </p>
<p>To me, kids walking home as long as they aren't vandalizing properties should basically be left to walk... I am far more concerned about somebody pushing a couple tons of metal at high speeds down a street, than a walker....</p>
<p>note: didn't happen to my kid, he just shared the story with me...</p>
<p>The hypocrisy and stupidity of this kind of thing amazes me. Protect your own as best you can. Dish out your own punishment, if you feel it necessary. Do whatever you can to keep the school from doing anything. Lawyering up and going in guns blazing may be counterproductive, but the idea that the (presumably adult) student deserves punishment for having a drink is faux puritanical and absurd.</p>
<p>"The hypocrisy and stupidity of this kind of thing amazes me. Protect your own as best you can. Dish out your own punishment, if you feel it necessary. Do whatever you can to keep the school from doing anything. Lawyering up and going in guns blazing may be counterproductive, but the idea that the (presumably adult) student deserves punishment for having a drink is faux puritanical and absurd."</p>
<p>Ouch!, I think you left a mark....</p>
<p>"hypocrisy and stupidity "</p>
<p>Later on with a few years under your belt, you know that better as Tuesday..</p>
<p>Boy, I always love these kind of comments like this, the young berating the old. Which is really funny as it's been that way for 50 years minimum.</p>