Sports

Parents Forum
41

<p>dmd...we don't have football here. </p>

<p>hopsscout....well, in my view, it is refreshing to hear that the band and chorus stuff got recognition at your school. Actually, there are some schools where sports get all the press, and the arts do not. (I'm NOT knocking sports because indeed my kids did them.) </p>

<p>I'd like to see public recognition for all the great things kids are accomplishing and doing. Sometimes academic accomplishments are not recognized enough. Sometimes a certain team gets no publicity. Sometimes the arts got short shrift. I love reading about all the great things kids are doing because we always hear about bad things teens do when in fact, there are tons of teens engaged in worthwhile pursuits and accomplishments both in and outside the classroom. Let's celebrate them all.</p>

42

<p>hops scout, it is hard to believe you are from the midwest, if the band got more attention than the football team. It sounds like the administration at your school might have been trying to even the score. Around here, the newspapers have a whole daily section devoted largely to high school sports.</p>

<p>You don't find a lot of coverage of the many other activities kids are engaged in, although I do have to say it is starting to improve over the last couple of years. High time, IMO.</p>

43

<p>midmo, I doubt it was our administration "evening the score" because the principal's son was on the football team and not involved in any kind of band stuff. It's just that he allowed the band and chorus teachers (along with many others) to do whatever they wanted basically.</p>

<p>Our newspaper around here is more likely to put something in about fine arts than it is about sports. And if sports are in there it isn't our school unless our school lost that week. If we won, it was likely that it would not be included in the newspaper. If we lost, all the sudden it was a full-page story. And we average in most sports.</p>

44

<p>"When I think of all the sports camps, travel team costs, private coaching, etc. --" </p>

<p>I'm another sports fan, with children who will likely participate in varsity sports in college. That said, this sentence from the OP makes a good point. I've managed a number of club soccer teams over many years. I've watched a large number of parents, who couldn't afford it, spend thousands of dollars trying to help their child get to the next level of competition, hoping for a college scholarship or a boost into a selective school. The club coaches, who are privately paid, inflate the potential and the opportunities some of these kids have, because their paychecks depend on lots of kids staying in the system as long as possible. </p>

<p>Parents' role in all this should be to be as objective as possible about where their child's true talent lies. Those dollars and hours could be so much better spent on a child's real talents and interests (if they're not sports!), if only they were allowed to pursue them. I've seen so many kids drop music, theater, and academic clubs because of a pipe dream of athletic success. For some kids, of course their talent IS on a field or court, but for many, that dream belongs to the parent, fed by a coach with a narrow view of the world and an ignoble motivation.</p>

45

<p>"What do you know about Knowledge Master team competitions? How about Science Knowledge Bowl? These are just some of the TEAM activities and competitions my son was involved in, in many cases as team leader/organizer. In every single case, the fate of each and every participant depended on the performance of the other team members. Sometimes they lost, sometimes they won, it was always fun, it was always educational and the experiences definitely taught my kid and all the other kids a whole lot about teamwork, responsibility and friendship."</p>

<p>Mine won state in knowledge bowl and played state premier soccer at the same time. You can be a part of both worlds if you choose.</p>

<p>"than I like getting dust and horse manure blown in my face while watching my daughter jump and ride. Although I do love watching her ride."</p>

<p>ditto....</p>

<p>As I read these posts there is a common thread that I hope many of you stop and apprieciate your kids are successful because you take the time to support them in whatever they do. Be it science bowl, football, watching a 3 HOUR swim meet for 35 seconds of your kid swimming and so on...</p>

<p>It really isn't that one EC is truly better than another. It really is do you support you kid in whatever they do? While I may disagree with midmo and her feelings about sports, I do appreicate and have been in many of the same places she has for the other EC's. I must say as some others here, you would be sitting on the sidelines watching your kid play.... if that's what floated their boat. </p>

<p>I sat with a client yesterday and talked about problems with she was having with her daughter. We talked about my kids and how they are turning out so well, like I had some special parenting skill. I honestly answered the only real parenting skill I had was "being there". If it was worthwhile to my kids, I was there, even if it meant 14 hours at the fairground barns for 15 minutes of riding. It was being there as a shoulder to cry on, or for a pat on the back. M</p>

<p>Before this post degrades into who's activity is better than the other, everybody should be appreicative of who's there for their kids. Those kids are better off than many others whether their "science kids", "soccer kids" or both.</p>

46

<p>There was a time when I might have agreed with the OP - maybe before Title IX, and before my daughter became involved in High School Soccer and Track. The great boost in self-esteem and the social outlet with other players are great benefits – not to mention the incredible physical fitness that she has attained. I can’t remember girls running track or playing soccer when I was in HS. </p>

<p>I’m not a big football fan, but I recently began attending our HS football games. I have been amazed at the level of student participation. Not just the players – certainly they get a lot of glory – but the huge marching band, the cheerleaders, the flag-bearers, twirlers, mascot and the student medical crew. Also – here was a new one on me - the “run-thru” crew that spends all week creating a huge painted banner (usually with a cartoon ribbing the opposing team) which they deploy at the end of halftime for the team to burst through. Hundreds of kids. It is like some kind of beehive – everyone takes pride in their job, and each has a chance to exercise teamwork or leadership. The stands are packed with cheering kids and parents, and their excitement is just infectious!</p>

<p>What would all these kids be doing otherwise on a Friday night between 6pm and 10pm? Doobies in a van down by the river?</p>

47

<p>Well, I like sports, but I do agree with the OP's observation (rephrased) that for the vast majority of hs athletes, sports are no more valuable than any other activity in getting into school. </p>

<p>Here is the gospel for the "value" of an activity as it relates to college admissions--- if you aren't good enough to play the sport or do the activity at the school you want to go to, then its no more valuable than being in the Young Rotarians club. </p>

<p>One thing I'll say for sports: there is a score, and a ranking. You can't just show up at practice and pronounce yourself one of the best programs of your kind in your area, the way that most high acheving school administrators sometimes do. You have to "prove" it. Frankly, although there might be some unpleasant side effects, there would be higher levels of excellence in a lot of endeavors if the organizers were held to the same standard as football coaches are.</p>

<p>One of the great lessons of life is that there are a lot of really talented and really motivated people out there in any field. Sports give you a taste of that and an arena to learn the connection between sustained effort and improvement and achievement.</p>

48

<p>RIVERRUNNER...I just cannot imagine having one's kid put in these kinds of efforts and time with the hopes of some scholarship or some such to college. The only thing I am familiar with is a kid DYING to do the activity and pushing us to let them do it. Never thought about college or scholarships. I can't imagine making a kid give up what they love doing either. One of my kids loved so many things that she went all the way through 12th grade not wanting to give up a part of herself and rather than specialize in one thing to get to the top echelon of that activity, she did them all. I must say she exceled at them all on a regional or state level but will never be at the epitome or top of any of them because she did so many out of CHOICE. She knew others who gave up things to strive in one area. But that wasn't her. She even wrote a college essay on her many sides. She had a foot in all these sports and a foot in several of the arts among other things. I can't imagine making a kid give something up or I can't imagine making them stick with an area that their heart isn't into. The commitments are huge and I can't imagine doing it unless you love it. I have another kid who also did many sports and many arts. But she CHOSE to give up her sports in middle school as the committments to her arts grew bigger and her passion got more focused on that area. I missed seeing her do sports but sports did not end up to be her calling even though she had done them from K-8. So, I had one kid who specialized and one who didn't. But in each case, it was her choice. I think the key is to follow your kids and support their choices. I can't imagine pushing kids to do any of these activities.</p>

<p>Opie....agree about watching your kids' activities. One of my kids was allergic to horses but road for several years when young. She could not hang out in a barn and so I (a totally UN horsewoman) had to do the tedious braiding of the mane for the horseshows. I also stand out in windchills of 20 below watching a ski race. :D Once I flew across the country to see my D in the National Collegiate Ski Championships. She was in one event, the Giant Slalom (we're talking about 60 seconds). At the top of the course, her ski released and that was it. Out of the race. My D came down the hill and I could tell that she wasn't just disappointed for herself (though she is not hard on herself and takes things in a very easygoing manner), but she looked so sorry that I had flown across the country for this and she was on the course for about five seconds and a speck for me at the top where this happened. But for me, I was happy to be there and share it all with her team who did great overall. I must admit that I do enjoy music concerts and theater that my kids do and the sports that they have played. I'd watch anything they were in but feel a bit lucky that they do things I enjoy watching whereas there are some activities that would take me a long time to come to enjoy such as wrestling, heavy metal music, etc.</p>

49

<p>giddey up...I agree....these kids are doing worthwhile activities and it is so great to see. The alternatives are not so great.</p>

50

<p>dadx, I agree with you that sports are just another activity. Not necessarily going to be helpful getting into school. And that's just fine by me!:)</p>

51

<p>There's another factor that I don't think anyone has mentioned. We all know about the unmotivated teenage boy when academics are involved. </p>

<p>Thinking of a specific one here ... when a his dream college team was dangled in front of him as a possibility early in his high school career if he could just nail down a 3.5 and 1200/1600 -- academics suddendly took on a new importance. And it worked!</p>

52

<p>
[quote]
While I may disagree with midmo and her feelings about sports,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why Opie, I guess you missed this entry on the Is Baseball Dead? thread:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=392999&page=3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=392999&page=3&lt;/a>
see #43</p>

<p>I will admit to being disillusioned with pro sports now. However, last year I did not pass up the opportunity to spend an evening with Bob Gibson and several other Cardinal luminaries. (A benefit of knowing a wealthy Cardinal's fan with a private box.)</p>

<p>My distaste is for the assumption that nothing other than organized sports is a valuable way to learn teamwork, persistence and hard work, and that non-athletes are anti-social wimps.</p>

53

<p>My youngest son (#3) is a very strong soccer player, very strong student--and until recently, a vocal musician. He plays on a premier level travel soccer team that travels all over the country, and our high school team is ranked #3 in the state (the tournament is just heating up!). He is also on the school paper and attends an Orthodox Jewish kollel two nights a week even though we are reform Jewish.</p>

<p>Why is he a former vocal musician? He sang for two years with the top vocal ensemble at our high school, a group that is nationally recognized and has performed in Europe. The soccer coaches--both at school and in his club-- were always willing to compromise or adapt his schedule for his vocal group practices and performances. The diva who runs the vocal group at school would never, ever compromise on anything at any time. He got tired of the wisecracks about the dumb jocks. He got tired of being told by the diva that musicians could not be athletic and that athletes could not have any artistic talent. He quit when the soccer team was to be honored (during school hours) for a very successful community service project they had run, and she would not excuse him from class to receive the award as junior soccer captain.</p>

<p>I will miss his performaces with the ensemble but I am relieved that the stress of dealing with the diva is gone.</p>

<p>As an aside--of the 8 seniors on the soccer team, we have 2 NMSF and 2 NM commended. The team gpa is about a 3.4 unweighted. If a player drops under a 3.0 he had better have a good explanation for the coach...</p>

54

<p>"Why Opie, I guess you missed this entry on the Is Baseball Dead? thread"</p>

<p>I was asked not to post on that thread because I said "yes, I think baseball's dead." ;) I touted soccer and rugby. It wasn't appreicated. </p>

<p>That baseball thread was one of those "do these jeans make me look fat?" questions.. no one wanted the truth. :)</p>

<p>"My distaste is for the assumption that nothing other than organized sports is a valuable way to learn teamwork, persistence and hard work, and that non-athletes are anti-social wimps."</p>

<p>Yes, but declaring sports unnecessary doesn't make you better than those who said what I just quoted from you. It just puts you on the same footing. </p>

<p>I learned long ago a philosophy of "what ever floats your boat." We let em try anything they were really interested in. The end results have been good sofar. Kids are able to pop in and out of the different "worlds" with relative ease. </p>

<p>Trying to prove one EC is far better than an other to me, means the person really has doubt and needs to talk themselves into it. Bottom line should be do the kids enjoy it enough to work at it?</p>

55

<p>I don't question the value of h.s. sports to those who participate in them. I do question the overemphasis and overvaluation they get compared to other ECs at our h.s. If the full costs of supporting all athletics at our h.s. were added up, I think people would be shocked. This is CA, post Prop-13, so some of the expense for some sports is partially paid by parents through booster clubs, but a big chunk still comes from school discretionary funds, especially for King Football. </p>

<p>During a budget meeting, our Activities Director acknowledged that athletics now eats up the lion's share of the $80 activities fee students are asked to pay at registration. It goes to trainers, specialty equipment (helmets) the parents say the school should pay for, coaching overtime, CIF dues. It bugs me that the dues to pay for CIF administration, which oversees the sports competitions, is paid by the school, while the festival fees for vocal or instrumental competitions are not. Parents pay booster club fees to cover those expenses, as well as transportation costs to events. </p>

<p>Sports overshadows all other activities, with only vocal music and occasionally drum line or band managing to get a mention on the announcements. Of the five ASB-coordinated student assemblies, four are built around athletics. Homecoming assembly. Fall sports assembly. Winter sports assembly. Spring sports assembly. The fifth assembly is a catch all recognizing all other activities: music, dance, drama, clubs, academic notables AND nonCIF sport activities such as equestrian and roller hockey. </p>

<p>For years, there has been very little money for academic clubs. One year there might be a Mock Trial club, the next year not, depending on whether a volunteer parent comes forward to run it. Same with Aca-Deca (essentially dead at our school) and Science Olympiad, which has been dormant for the last two years. The school says it has no money to pay the teachers the stipend they're entitled to for running it and since these clubs have gotten so little support or school "glory" over the years, they are just allowed to die. </p>

<p>Athletics are a valuable thing for the athletes and their families, no question. I have lots of friends whose kids are in sports and for some, it is their lifeline to remaining in school and staying on task. But athletics gets far more than its fair share of the school budget, which shortchanges the activities that serve (or would serve) other students.</p>

56

<p>People who've played team sports seem to be much more coachable in an office setting. They understand not everybody gets to score the "touchdowns." They can find joy in being part of a successful team even if they aren't getting the glory. Women seem to be at quite a disadvantage in my business, because they don't seem to understand this. My workforce is about 50% female, but about 99% of the whining and backstabbing is done by females.</p>

57

<h2>mammal: "Classes are becoming a nuissance to be handled as efficiently as possible. They miss so much with that attitude, even if they are managing A's."</h2>

<p>Couldn't agree more. I don't know if sports in particular are the culprit, I do think being a varsity athlete is a healthy thing even for a hardcore scholar. However, I agree that many elite colleges seem to encourage only shallow engagement in classes and intellectual activities.</p>

<p>I think the lesson is that you have to teach your kids that they may take a short-term hit with admissions at super-elite colleges, but it's better for their careers in the long term if they push themselves intellectually. Also, it's better for them in general to be true to themselves.</p>

58

<p>
[quote]
I have a female goalie. About the only sport that comes to mind that is more expensive than hockey goaltending is equestrian.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My college sport was sailing... once defined as "standing fully clothed in a cold shower tearing up $100 bills."</p>

59

<p>I guess it's just me, and maybe I'm alone out there in this sea of CCers...but.</p>

<p>I HONESTLY, TRULY BELIEVE THAT THE STUDENT "MAKES" IT HAPPEN FOR THEMSELVES NO MATTER WHERE THEY END UP. SELF CONFIDENCE IN BEING ABLE TO THE JOB ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, ANYPLACE.</p>

<p>I start to see red after a bit with some folks here. WILL your child be a failure if they don't go to an "it" school? Honestly, I don't understand the lack of confidence some of you have in your children. Who gives a rat's sass where somebody else's kid gets into or what they do for ECs? </p>

<p>So your kid doesn't ivy? Should he quit? or go out and kick some butt someplace else? They don't like your son or daughter, well shrew them! That's their loss. </p>

<p>I believe in my kids, if some school admitence officer doesn't so what? They don't like his EC's so what? Their loss. For God's sake folks believe in your kids first, second and third. They'll make it on their own merits, whatever they are, however they can and they will be successful on their terms. What more do you want?</p>

60

<p>Opie of May - If you're referring to me then you are very much misreading my attitudes toward the college application game. It's wonderful that you believe in your kids. I've never suspected anyone posting here did NOT believe in their kids. I show my own belief in my kids by not trying to talk them into taking sports seriously, despite an absolutely overwhelming mania in the society to do exactly that. If I didn't believe in their abilities I would beat the bushes as I see so many parents doing, looking for the best summer sports camp, the top travel team, the best conditioning clinic -- all in the hopes that they can be "varsity athletes" and thus part of the club that schools and society seem to hold in such esteem. I don't do any of that and believe me, it's often quite difficult to take this stance in the midst of the national sports obsession. </p>

<p>And for what it's worth, my daughters aren't bad athletes. They've dabbled in sports for years. They're both slim, both fit, both can move quite well. Several coaches have been annoyed with them and me for not being more serious about sports. I've been told they could "make varsity" if they'd play their sport year round, attend conditioning clinics, get in the swing of the sports mindset. They didn't want to live that sort of life. I think they didn't find it very meaningful.</p>

<p>I am duly impressed with the portraits of scholar/athlete superstars some of you have posted here. It's a bit exhausting to read some of the accounts, and a stubborn little voice in my head keeps asking how children can truly savor their intellectual exploration in the midst of such extraordinarily busy schedules. And finally, I'll say this and no doubt offend some here, but I really find it ludicrous to refer to a student's enjoyment of a sport as a "passion." I think we need to get our kids passionate about ideas, technical innovation, intellectual inquiry, the stuff that will truly help society. All that marching around blowing horns on a football field and clashing helmets appeals to a certain warlike mentality, I suppose. But it is not going to help us navigate a global and fiercely competitive world economy. It will be the thinkers, visionaries, nerds, who do that. Bill Gates anyone? </p>

<p>Finally, the mantra that participation in sports builds character just doesn't hold water for me. The students I observe who are big in sports are rather tribal, aggressive, unquestioning of authority. I'm always a little saddened by the degree to which they seem to define themselves by their membership on the team. I guess some kids need that sort of social validation. Mine don't. And on Friday and Saturday nights mine are usually with their parents, watching a movie or reading a book -- secure, content, at home.</p>