<p>OMG- How many tribal and aggressive cross country runners have you seen? (and I think you meant "questioning" of authority- not UNquestioning)
Mammall- you are hilarious. Your kids must be a thrill a minute if they are home with their parents Friday and Saturday nights. Talk about lack of social development! Also, if you can only be passionate about technical ideas and things that will help society, there goes romance!<br>
I am "saddened" by your very words. Please take note of the colleges mentioned on this thread and make sure your kids steer clear!</p>
<p>Yesterday's Wall Street Journal has a fascinating article about the economics of the Ohio State University varsity sports program, which OSU says supports itself with sports revenues...</p>
<p>and spends $110,000 per year per athlete!</p>
<p>While that includes scholarships, it also includes the use of a private plane for the basketball coach for recruiting, and other such luxuries (idiocies).</p>
<p>My question is: wouldn't it make more sense to spend a little of that money on academics? Apparently OSU spends a third of that on academics/student...</p>
<p>mammall - One word came to mind when reading about your view of the world: BOOOORING!</p>
<p>"All that marching around blowing horns on a football field and clashing helmets appeals to a certain warlike mentality"</p>
<p>"The students I observe who are big in sports are rather tribal, aggressive, unquestioning of authority"</p>
<p>"I really find it ludicrous to refer to a student's enjoyment of a sport as a "passion." I think we need to get our kids passionate about ideas, technical innovation, intellectual inquiry, the stuff that will truly help society"</p>
<p>"little voice in my head keeps asking how children can truly savor their intellectual exploration in the midst of such extraordinarily busy schedules"</p>
<p>"looking for the best summer sports camp, the top travel team, the best conditioning clinic -- all in the hopes that they can be "varsity athletes" and thus part of the club that schools and society seem to hold in such esteem"</p>
<p>"they seem to define themselves by their membership on the team. I guess some kids need that sort of social validation. Mine don't."</p>
<p>I see where you're coming from. You just don't particularly like sports, especially football. You have a definite picture of the type of kids who play sports and their parents, and it's not a good one. Anyone having this sort of attitude toward a group of people- whether they're football players, basketweavers, or nose-pickers- is going to resent their receiving attention or appreciation; it's just natural. Some day, someone you know and love dearly (maybe a grandchild, a favorite nephew, etc.) is going to <em>gasp</em> play football and your mind will be changed. You'll be out there with a cowbell, buying the programs, taking pictures when he gets his first pads.</p>
<p>You also overlook that most high school kids are not driven or destined to go to Ivies and other super-selective colleges. More than half go on to CC or public university, where they do fine and become our community business leaders, attorneys, politicians, and health care providers. Even the ones that played football in high school.</p>
<p>It seems to me that there is alot of prejudice and stereotyping going on with regard to student athletes on this board. It makes me sad. There is room enough in this world for all sorts of kids--those that like sports, those that like the arts--gee whiz, I have a jock son that is also a great musician/actor.
He does play a "helmet" sport, lifts weights every day, practices his sport off season 4 days a week 2 hours away from our home--he is a straight A student. I certainly hope some of this athletic passion helps the college process, just as I would hope your child's musical prowess will.</p>
<p>Perhaps we should not be so judgemental about what is good and right about what drives our kids-----</p>
<p>First, I did mean "unquestioning" of authority and find it rather telling that the poster didn't grasp my meaning. </p>
<p>Doubleplay and Momof2 - you're both right, of course. I'm prejudiced against the sports crowd, but not really because I find the sports intrinsically unappealing. I'm annoyed by the mania, the resources squandered on pursuits that I just don't think really help the students very much, or society. </p>
<p>Midmo was certainly right -- it is not for the feint of heart to take on this issue. There is nothing quite like the wrath of the sports contingent when they think they've being dissed.</p>
<p>Finally, the really mean comments about my childrens' social life just confirm all the negative stereotypes out there about jock mentality. For the record, my senior holds four elected leaderhip positions, has many friends and simply passes on most weekend parties that involve driving and a good chance of the presence of alcohol and drugs. Oh, yea. And she really likes to be with her family at the end of a long arduous school week. In fact, this seems more important to her lately. She says she knows she'll be heading off soon and wants to enjoy us while she can. This makes me hugely proud of her and us as a family. I guess I'll live with the contempt of some on here.</p>
<p>"There is nothing quite like the wrath of the sports contingent when they think they've being dissed."</p>
<p>Anybody has a right to feel wrathful when they think they've been dissed. I'm sure you feel wrathful when your daughter is dissed. If someone started a thread dissing violin players, all the violin parents would be in an uproar, and well they should. These are just young adults/kids, who are trying hard to participate in whatever ECs their schools offer that they feel they can make the greatest contribution in, and they're staying out of trouble. They don't deserve to get dissed, no matter if they play football, play the violin, or are on the robotics team. Again, why the hate?</p>
<p>I hardly know what to say about your stereotyping and assumptions Mammall. </p>
<p>I'll take my D, the athlete (who is SO much more than an athlete) as my example of someone who doesn't fit any of your assumptions. </p>
<p>First, she did not attend summer sports camps. Here is how she spent the six summers leading up to senior year of HS, and what our kids wanted to do for the summer was entirely their choice and they asked to do these exact things and came to us and we supported their desires. For four summers she went to a performing arts camp that also offered other things. She went for six weeks each summer. She chose this camp because it fit her to a T as she is well rounded and likes many things. By going there, she was in two musicals each summer, dance classes (she did theater and dance at home), waterskiing (a sport she was dying to learn and we don't have a boat or access to it and she is a lifelong alpine skier) and tennis (one of her sports she plays). They did have a tennis team that played other camps and a socccer team (another sport she plays) that played other camps but this was not a sports camp and it is a performing arts camp that has these other interests. She spent one summer on a six week teen travel program visting the Western US, Western Canada, and Hawaii. She loves travel and asked to do this. The next summer she wanted to go on a travel program to Europe. She happened to research one that didn't just go to Europe but also was a tennis program and so she could combine improving tennis (she was the number one singles player on our HS team) and see many countries in Europe (an interest that carried over into college where she has studied abroad in Italy for a semester with a lot of travel to other countries by herself, and spending the last two summers working jobs, one in her intended career field, in France). </p>
<p>She did not specialize in one sport to get to the "top". Her three varsity sports were soccer, ski racing and tennis (and for 8 years she also had been on a softball team but switched her spring sport to tennis due to conflicts with her dance and music activities). To be tops in tennis, she'd have to play year round but she didn't. She was still able to compete on the state level. To be tops in ski racing, she would have had to give up public high school and attended a private ski academy, but she did not (she would not give up her academics, other sports, music, dance, or theater to go there, nor could we afford to send her as it costs as much as college). But she still competed on a state level. She was not on a soccer travel team but was still the starting goalie for the varsity team that went to the state quarterfinals. She didn't want to do a travel team as she would not want to give up her other interests. She also took piano lessons, clarinet lessons (made All States each year) was in band, jazz band, wind ensemble, jazz dance classes, tap dance classes, hip hop dance classes, a weekend ski program in additon to her school ski team, student government (which she lead two major initiatives to establish school policies), and so on. She is not "just an athlete" and she did this all the while becoming valedictorian (which was NEVER her goal). She went beyond the school curriculum to challenge herself in independent studies, more advanced math than was offered(did long distance math through Johns Hopkins), took French 6 as an indpendent study when she exhausted the French curriculum via acceleration, did an independent study course related to her budding interest in architecture, and did an internship with an architect. Her "identity" is not "athlete." </p>
<p>Does she not "savor her intellectual exploration"??? I don't know where to begin. My D is a STUDENT first and foremost. She has excelled tremendously in academics. I think she "savored" it considering she got a perfect 4.0 and spent 3-5 hours per night on homework after going to ECs before school, after school, and in the evenings every weekday and had ECs on the weekends (sometimes as many as 16 hours of EC on weekends) and did about 12 hours of homework each weekend. She went beyond the HS curriculum to challenge herself. That was a choice. She would never want to just "get by." She savors academic challenge and craves learning.</p>
<p>Now she goes to a very demanding college (it happens to be an Ivy but Ivy was NEVER her goal either.....she does crave academic challenge, however). As far as "savoring intellectual exploration," I think she'd just about die at your suggestion that those who do sports can't truly get into their academics in depth. My D chose to spend a summer at an intensive (very intensive!!) architecture program at Harvard Graduate School of Design when she was 18 to see if she wanted to pursue this field (she does....she is in the midst of graduate school applications). She has savored her studies by going abroad to a program in her intended field. She did an internship in Paris this past summer in her field. She is an undergraduate leader for her departmental major and just organized an event for that field at her school. While not academic, she is also a tour guide at her college and also is an advisor to freshmen, all positions are by selection and application. She is not just an athlete. </p>
<p>However, in college, her sport does require a lot of time. There is no way a person is going to put in this time unless their sport IS a PASSION. I don't understand how you can say a sport can't be a passion! Well, let me tell you, her sport has been a lifelong passion and ONE of her criteria in selecting schools was to find a school that had a team in her sport so she would not have to give that sport up. She also wanted a college with challenging academics that offered her possible field of study. In off season, which is now, she has 14 hours of practice to fit into her very busy academic schedule (and applications to graduate school, GREs, creating a portfolio for grad school, etc.......Oh, I forgot to say she is ALSO a TA for a course she is passionate about and so has to attend that class too, a TA weekly planning session, and leads two sections of the course and she is just an undergraduate but she wanted to do this extra thing which is not any small thing). She also takes a time consuming art course and her work is in a current art show. She used to be on the intercollegiate club soccer team but can't fit that in this year and have two sports going this particular fall. But back to her college varsity sport commitment. IN season, she has 14 hours practice midweek, requiring getting up before 6 AM. Every weekend in season, she must leave campus at 4 PM on Fridays and returns Sunday night and so is away all weekend for her sport out of state. The sport takes up most of the weekend.....they are up at 6:30 AM and the event involves 7:30 AM until about 4 PM each day. She LOVES it. It is very important in her life. </p>
<p>But she is VERY much an academic student. To achieve an A average at an Ivy League school DOES require savoring intellectual exploration, to use your words. She happens to attend a school with an open curriculum that emphasizes much choice in creating one's own intellectual exploration in fact. Is she UNIQUE?? NO WAY. Let me tell you that every kid I have met at her school is ALSO very engaged in passions beyond their intellectual passions. They are top academic students PLUS other interests (be it a sport or a myriad of other EC pursuits). By the way, several outstanding athletes on her team plan to become doctors.</p>
<p>This really is not about sports. If I told you my other kid's schedule which is all day and all night and all weekend, you'd see how insanely busy she is but she is in the arts. </p>
<p>These activities are definitely passions. However, each child ALSO has an intellectual passion......excels in academics (one is a chosen Scholar at her school and the other was actually a chosen scholar at an Ivy which she turned down)....loves academic challenges....goes beyond what is required academically....and has a chosen career interest. But their EC interests are a BIG passion and a BIG part of who they are as a PERSON.</p>
<p>As far as athletes being aggressive....like any group of people, you find all types. I would have to rollick in laughter at the suggestion that my D is aggressive. Rather she is extremely easygoing. I don't think she has argued with a soul. But she is also quite a confident person with self esteem who takes on leadership roles and is a great collaborator. Sports may have been a part of that, though I can't prove it. She has no "jock mentality" that you have mentioned. NONE. She loves her sports, period. But she loves other things such as the arts and academics (and in her case, architecture).</p>
<p>Mammall...I cross posted with you but don't you possibly see that all of these kids, whether they are doing sports, or music, or theater, or robotics, or dance, or student government, or debate team, or whatever EC passion....are doing worthwhile activiites in their "free time." My kids had no time to go to drinking parties in HS and they didn't. Your D doesn't either. Why diss those who are engaged in other worthwhile pursuits. I would not diss the activities your D does. My girls' activities used up all afternoon, the first part of each evening and in some cases (rehearsals) until much later at night, and most of their weekend, and then they had to fit in homework to get top grades, which they did, in the most challenging courses available (plus acceleration and going beyond the HS curriculum....one even graduated a year early at 16). They live this lifestyle now in college as well. They are great at time management. :D</p>
<p>I am glad they have done and are doing worthwhile activities and don't just hang out and get in trouble. The time commitments to certain activities like sports or theater are huge and more so than being the president of a club at school (which indeed is a great pursuit but often doesn't require the hours that certain other activities require for a commitment). They also have social lives and friends. I can't see what to knock, I really cannot. I believe colleges look favorably at students who are dedicated to endeavors that involve big committments. My D went to a graduate school presentation where she was told they look positively toward student athletes (and there are NO athletics in her professional graduate schools!) because they see the way the student can handle time management around big commitments, and actually, her intended professional school is architecture which is a HUGE time commitment if you know anything about architecture study.</p>
<p>Mamall writes:
[quote]
....pursuits that I just don't think really help the students very much, or society.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>To the contrary, I believe that my kids' EC pursuits, including sports, HAVE helped them become who they are today as people. They have developed a great deal through these endeavors that are part of building them as a whole person who is more than simply a smart girl (which they are too).</p>
<p>Don't worry mammall, when you come around and realize what a mistake you've made, we'll all forgive you!</p>
<p>I guess I must have been sleeping through alot of USS swim meets to have missed the tribal and aggressive behavior! Haha!</p>
<p>A lot of sports like swimming, track, ski racing, tennis, etc. have individual events and are hardly "tribal". I think if my kid got "tribal" on downhill skis, she'd be injured. However, when she personally attacks the course, she HAS to be aggressive as it may mean the difference between hundreths of a second that separates first and tenth place. :D</p>
<p>Actually, this reminds me about another great thing, particularly in an individual event sport because I know for my D, it is not about winning but about setting personal goals and so for the next race, she wants to be in a certain spot and reaches for her personal goal, not winning and trying to attain that goal. THIS carries over into life. Two days ago, she took the GREs for grad school. She set a personal goal, not "winning" or not the highest score possible. She was thrilled to find out she met the personal goal and it was good enough for her. It was kinda similar to her approach to ski races.</p>
<p>mammal,
As one who has created some threads about the role that sports can play as a differentiating factor in college selection, I am easily seen as a great supporter of sports as an important part of high school/college life. Here are some of the reasons why I believe that sports are important (both as a participant and as a fan):</p>
<p>As a participant
1. It opens doors that otherwise might not be available to you, eg, the ability to attend a top college or maybe even giving the opportunity to go to college at all;</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It teaches important life lessons like the value of hard work, commitment, persistence, overcoming adversity, etc. As an employer, these are personal traits that are very, very important in any candidate and which will likely have a far greater impact on deciding job performance than whether the student got an A or a B or even a C in a class.</p></li>
<li><p>The leadership and teamwork skills learned in sports are invaluable. This can’t be stressed enough for anyone considering a career in business that will involve working with others. I will quickly add that many of these lessons can also be learned in non-academic pursuits (eg, the robotics example). Other ECs can also show this. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I will also take issue with your description of students playing on teams as “tribal, aggressive, unquestioning of authority.” If you want an individualist, take up pole vaulting. But for success in team sports, not subscribing to the team goal is a recipe for disaster (and there are literally hundreds of stories to support this at the high school, college, and professional levels). </p>
<ol>
<li><p>It has already been mentioned, but the benefit to young women is HUGE. One of the big complaints about women in the workforce historically is that they aren’t good team players. While I think a lot of that is bunk, it is true that women have historically not had the same athletic experiences as men and that this creates an impression, rightly or wrongly, that women don’t understand how to function on teams. Playing on teams and communicating this in an interview or in the workplace itself can be very helpful. </p></li>
<li><p>It’s fun for a lot of students. Maybe not for your kids, but there is obviously a pretty enormous contingent that likes sports. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>As a fan,</p>
<ol>
<li><p>As it relates to the college experience, this is actually as important to me personally as the participant issue. Sports at many colleges are an EVENT. I have posted extensively about the athletic scenes at various colleges and how this affects the vibe and social life of a college. Having fun at a school’s athletic event is not anti-intellectual. It is part of the undergraduate experience. </p></li>
<li><p>The social scene at a college is often heavily impacted by the school’s athletic teams and serves as a source of local pride, eg, USC and its football team, Georgetown and its basketball team, Rice and its baseball team, Stanford and its many, many successful and popular athletic teams, etc. You’d have to be living under a rock not to see the (mostly positive) impact that such events have on a college campus. And if you’re living under that rock, then I feel sorry for you because you are possibly missing out on a whole lot of fun.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I don’t know how much you follow college sports, but take the time to look at your TV this afternoon/evening and look at a few college football games (UCB at UCLA or U Virginia at U Maryland or Vanderbilt at U South Carolina or USC at Notre Dame or U Michigan at U Illinois or Stanford at U Arizona). Don’t get too hung on what is going on on the field-look at what is happening in the stands. It’s a party and kids having a good time, acting silly, cheering their team, enjoying the marching bands/cheerleaders, etc. For many, many students, it’s a very good time and often one of the most enjoyable aspects of an undergraduate’s life. </p>
<ol>
<li> Sports provide a lifelong connection to your alma mater. This is pretty obvious, but college sports provides students and graduates the opportunity to connect over time and across generations with each other and with other members of their community. And, depending on the college you attend, this benefit happens for the rest of your life after college.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>Sports are a part of our national landscape that may get taken too far from time to time, but overall they are a lot of fun for players and fans and provide many happy, lifelong memories. I hope you will modify your view to see the lifelong personal benefits that sports can provide to participants and fans alike.</p>
<p>OP you seem overly focused on the "ends": fitness, high gpa, getting into an "elite" school. You apparently see see an activity's value in terms of how they help the participant meet those ends. </p>
<p>That's why you dont get sports. They are an end unto themselves. The vast majority of HS athletes are there because they love it. Their parents support their kids because they love them. By the time they reach high school, neither group holds onto unwarrented illusions about it being their ticket to their future. I won't repeat the excellent comments made by previous posters but I wanted to point out an inconsistency and ask a question. </p>
<p>You first post seems to clearly indicate that you believe student activites are valuable only if they are going to help a child achieve admission into a prestigious school. I don't get that. You seem to want it both ways. On one hand your posts are kid centered; you bemoan the loss of the family dinner and say you are saddended by how rushed our athletes are, yet. On the other hand your post lacks an appreciation for the intrinsic value of activities that are pursued just for fun. Most "play" doesn't help a child gain admission into prestigeous colleges therefore I wonder if you find it valuless?</p>
<p>Don't underestimate the power of play. Regardless of how you feel about competition, play is powerful and valuable for its own sake.</p>
<p>BTW, OP I think you should know that football pays the bills for all of the other sports at my hs. In addition, the money raised in the concession stand at the fb games is used for everything from new theatrical lighting, to classroom libraries, to sending kids to drama camp. </p>
<p>I know it varies from community to commuity and state to state, but I am willing to bet that if you understood your district's budget constraints you would see why certain money can't be spent on whatever. If you want to make a change in the way your school spends I would suggest getting on the district's budget committee so that you can get an insider's view of how money is earmarked at the federal and state level and can only be spent on things which meet certain criteria.</p>
<p>I like what doubleplay said about the grandchild who may play sports and then out comes the cowbell.....lol.</p>
<p>OP, you can see that you've touched a very sensitive nerve. As I've said, I think sports gets more than its share of the pie and the attention in h.s., but I certainly understand the vehemence of the defense of athletic kids. I never really understood or cared for football until my youngest played Pop Warner for one year, at 11). He didn't care to re-enlist the following year, but I am more of a football fan now than I used to be. At least I understand what's happening on the field most of the time. </p>
<p>However, eliminating the unfortunate stereotyping, I also agree with mammall that emphasis on sports, on being athletic, on trying to be uber-athletic if possible is very powerful in our culture as we're raising our children and it's not entirely a positive thing. When I look back, I think it's true that we spent way more time and effort encouraging a six-year-old's budding soccer skills (for a kid who stopped soccer at 12) or trying to help a nine-year-old batter not strike out so much so he could be one of the "winners" on his little league team (for a kid who dropped baseball at 11 ) than we should have. But in southern CA, that's what little kids do and you want them to have something in common with the other kids in the neighborhood and at school. </p>
<p>Isn't it possible that there's a connection between our culture's worship of athletics --- the time and attention lavished on it down to the age of four --- and the evidence that as a nation we are not producing enough scientists and mathematicians?</p>
<p>"My senior holds four elected leaderhip positions, has many friends and simply passes on most weekend parties that involve driving and a good chance of the presence of alcohol and drugs."</p>
<p>Damn! A freaking saint (or so it would appear).</p>
<p>Historymom, I agree with all that you wrote.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's why you dont get sports. They are an end unto themselves. The vast majority of HS athletes are there because they love it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's the whole point. My kid didn't do sports to get INTO college. She did them and still does them now IN college (where it doesn't help for any future athletic or educational goal) out of shear enjoyment. </p>
<p>The OP talks about the value of these activities in terms of college admissions. Never once did my kid or myself ever think of college admissions when she did sports. She started her sports at a very young age. She loved them and never wanted to give them up all the way through HS and now in college. She does these activities due to passion for them and no other reason. I can bet a million bucks that if she had NEVER attended college, she'd still have done her sports in HS.</p>
<p>I also agree that the work force looks kindly on those who have had such experiences. I know that my D's resume for grad school or jobs, has on her college varsity team and being an Academic All American and being in the National Championships even though her aim is NOT to be an athlete. Her aim is architecture. But she has been told (and would think this herself anyway) that these experiences reflect certain traits an employer or grad school might see as positive such as collaboration, leadership, commitment, goal setting, time management, communication skills, etc. </p>
<p>Jazzymom, I realize in some areas that sports are an obsession. I personally think ANY EC endeavor our kids do is the issue and is worthwhile and it need not be sports. I don't personally care what activities my kids CHOOSE to do. However, as very young children, they were exposed to a variety of enrichment activities including several sports and areas of the arts. They both did all of these for many years growing up....quite a well rounded type experience. If one of them didn't want to do an activity they surely didn't have to, and they took the lead in choosing. They wanted to do these ECs. But they both did do sports from tots through middle school (as well as several areas of performing arts). What happens is that the commitment to each activity becomes greater as they get older. Sometimes they have to choose. Or as they get older, after exposure to a variety of activities, they may develop a more singular passion they wish to focus on. One of my kids did give up sports in middle school as her passion in performing arts took over and so did the greater commitments that conflicted. Pointe classes required Saturdays and so she had to give up ski racing, for example at that point. My other D didn't want to give up anything and so did some of everything all the way through senior year. But I am glad both were exposed at a young age to the possibilities and then picked and chose what they wanted to do. </p>
<p>I don't regret that my theater kid spent years also doing sports, even though she hasn't done any since age 13. It's funny as she is known as a performer and she has this enormous framed collage I made for her for high school graduation depicting her life from birth through graduation and it has about 200 photos in it. I realize that when college pals who obviously didn't know her growiing up but know her now as a musical theater actress, see this collage, they see many photos of soccer team, ski races, horseback riding ribbons, figure skating, and so on and would have no clue that was in my D's background. But I still think it was part of growing up and discovering her own niche once she had tried all these various activities. She was good at them too. But her passion lies in the arts. It is not like she didn't like the sports at the time, however. She chose to do them. But her passions evolved and she chose to specialize as a young teen and the rest is history as her life is the stage. :D</p>
<p>My DDs go tribal on the soccer field. In fact thurdsay night they played a game in the rain and during half time the girls were all rolling in and painting each other with mud. (I was pretty sure that would keep them out of elite schools except that today the girls are **at an elite university attending a Biology forum with their science tribe so they will at least get a glimpse). S and his fb tribe were sitting in my living room last night, drinking hot chocolate and bragging about their **grades.</p>