<p>I think people who are insecure in their own pursuits (or lack thereof), like Mammall, are the ones who attack others who actually HAVE a passion.
I am VERY glad her family is not a sports family.</p>
<p>On the credit thing, I don't think the comparison is fair. </p>
<p>Since band, orchestra etc are electives, any student can choose to take them and get credit as long as it fits into their schedule. Many students cannot "choose" to participate in a sport because of the tough competition to make the team. At our big h.s., I don't think there are any more teams that operate on a no-cut basis. Track and cross country used to be no cut, but I understand that's not the case this year. </p>
<p>Anyway, athletics are an EC so why would you expect academic credit? The academic teams at our school all operate as clubs (MUN, Science Olympiad, Quiz Team, Mock Trial) so there's no credit there either. And by the way, you do get credit --- the required PE credit --- for being on a team for the first two years of h.s. at ours. </p>
<p>And I'm well aware that categorical funds have to be spent a certain way and that the Facilities Operations budget pays for the lights in the performing arts center as well as the lights on the football field. I was grousing about discretionary funds, which even our principal and activities director acknowledged are disproportionately spent on athletics. Because the school lost money from selling soft drinks on campus, nearly all the activities fees go into the athletic budget at our school. Why fight it? Who's got the energy to buck decades of tradition and entitlement and the feelings deeply embedded in American culture? Not me.</p>
<p>Awww, mammall, I thought for sure we had converted you! :)</p>
<p>"the posts speak for themselves" </p>
<p>Why do I feel like someone dug a big pit and put little sharp sticks poking up and then said "hey, come over here, I want to show you something really interesting...." Ouch. This was never going to be a discussion, just weekend entertainment for someone who doesn't WATCH SPORTS!</p>
<p>"the posts speak for themselves"</p>
<p>as do yours mammall. How confusing it must be to run into children who are as bright as your child, yet still find time to play a sport or enjoy an activity. What then? Are they still inferior families? ;) </p>
<p>Maybe you're just stuck being defensive now, because there is no where else to go. Good luck to you and your child, may you go through these years and not look back at what could have been. I wouldn't trade my kids choices with anybody here. It was alot of fun to watch my Son's team win the state knowledge bowl championship and still just as fun to watch his soccer team make the state semi finals on his game winning goal. Ahh balance.. it is true what they say. I guess I'm doubly blessed.</p>
<p>I find it ironic that "sports parents" are on the board explaining their point of view related to their child's passion for sports and yet I do not recall any of them flaming or saying anything meanspirited about kids who do not participate in sports or have passion for music etc yet we have some non sports folks who degrade and minimize the accomplishments/passions of athletes.</p>
<p>We should celebrate whatever lights a fire in our kid's hearts...there is room enough in this world for all and what a boring world this would be if all were simply violinists or simply runners....kids are multidimensional </p>
<p>Mammall you have my pity at your limited world view</p>
<p>Hi Jazzzymom--</p>
<p>I wish our kids could do athletic teams for pe credit, but at our school it'snot allowed--4 years of pe is required even if you are on varsity. </p>
<p>And at our relatively small high school, music and art are competitive too. Everyone can be in general orchestra, for example, but it is very competitive to move up to honors orchestra or sinfornia, or the jazz group, etc. It's the same for the choral groups--very competitive. </p>
<p>My son who is a soccer player auditioned for and performed with the top vocal ensemble/show choir--it was harder to get in that group than to get on the varsity soccer team, I think. Or at least he worried more about it! He dropped that group this semester, however, when the scheduling conflicts became too great, and the choral teacher would not compromise on his schedule even though the soccer coach would. </p>
<p>At our high school, each of the vocal/drama/music electives earns academic credit--and the higher the competitve level of the group, even honors credit! I know how hard the performers work and how many hours they put it, and it's great that their work is recognized. But the athletes work hard and put in lots of hours too--and still take gym!</p>
<p>But the athletes have never complained about favoritism, etc--they just go out there and play! Although my son would love to have a study hall instead of gym--the team bus has not gotten back until 10:30 or so three nights in the last two weeks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's interesting that the parents of athletes don't obsess over the fact that their students don't get academic credit for the hours spent at practice and performing in games, whereas the students who do are in band, orchestra, choral groups, drama, the school paper (at least at our high school) get academic credit for their endeavors.
[/quote]
This is a really interesting point. One I had never even considered. Looking around at schools in our area, and comparing them to D's Catholic school, I see a wide range of approaches.</p>
<p>I think every varsity athlete should be excused from gym. I remember some of those late night bus returns past 11PM, followed by a 45 minute ride home, very well. Yes, a study hall would have been much appreciated. </p>
<p>Our town vocal proagrams are outstanding -- they tour Europe, win every award, perform at Carnegie Hall. The artistic types complained (rightly so, I think) that participating in the arts classes was killing their GPAs, as no courses were weighted. It was resolved, with concert choir & chamber singers being elevated to honors level. A zero period performing arts/audition & portfolio coaching program was also instituted. Part of the great reception that the arts has in our town is due to the dedication of the parents. They don't whine about funding -- they go out & fundraise. They've taken the examples of the sports booster clubs & run with them, in very creative & lucrative wasy. With dedicated teachers partnering with enthusiastic parents, the program is soaring. Two new concert grand Steinways, tours, great costumes. The madrigal singers are even hired out to sing at corporate parties. The music director was given a $$ stipend equal to that of the head football coach. </p>
<p>Another reason the program grew so well was the marketing savy of the director. He was hired into a very shabby program. As is common in the arts, very few boys came out to sing or act in plays. His solution really changed the face of the program dramatically: He refused auditions to any girl who didn't bring in two guys to audition as well. The stigma of singing as a "nancy boy" activity among high school guys was blasted away. Any guy who was chosen was able to say, "I just did it for Suzie!" Football, hockey, and basketball players, freaks, geeks, scholars -- the whole gamut of h.s. was suddenly represented, the performances were stadnding room only. It can be done. But the mutual respect of the sports types and the artsy types was critical for that to happen.</p>
<p>Like Boysx3, my D's school has a diva (but he's a guy) running the choir. It's not a course; it's after school two days weekly. Conflicts with everything! He begs her to join, but he's not willing to be flexible with sports & other EC conflicts. He also refuses to sponsor girls for All-state auditions, so D on principle, wouldn't want to work with anyone so stubborn. His loss, I say. The lacrosse coach & orchestra director bend over backwards to be reasonable with conflicts, providing the girls are putting in 100% effort.</p>
<p>Proud member of a "sports family", here! The vast majority of h.s. athletes are intrinsically motivated--even carries over into the college game, mostly D-II and III. A great book comes to mind--The Last Amateur by John Feinstein is an account of a basketball season in the Patriot League, a Div. 1 league known for academics, rather than its athletics...There are far more athletes who play for sheer love of the game than those who use sports to gain material reward. Most people who don't 'get it' either aren't trying to understand or can't get over the fact that they don't have any athletic ability. </p>
<p>Regarding h.s. credit for sports, I believe some states DO give phys ed credit for athletic participation. Not sure if those decisions come from the state or from the individual school. My cousin's kids played sports in Texas and began practice in their phys ed class during the last class of the day and ocntinued for a couple of hours after school. The coach was their phys ed teacher and was allowed to start practice before the close of the school day, allowing kids to get home to dinner and homework a bit earlier. If my memory serves me correctly, some sports had first period phys ed, so they came in early to practice and didn't have to stay after school. It took some creative scheduling, but it was helpful for their family. This was a few years ago, just wondering---this may have changed.</p>
<p>How bout this twist in the credit issue...</p>
<p>Marching band members are excused from PE!?!?! But athletes are still required to take it.</p>
<p>At our High school too---athletes are still required to take PE (even those who play a sport a season) as a graduation requirement. Many of these kids are practicing 10+ hours per week plus 1-2 games per week</p>
<p>Seems kinda silly to me but I wonder if it is a state requirement regarding having to take PE</p>
<p>OH, I remember those days of taking PE then playing a sport after school. Son was a pitcher, and he hated it during that time of year they were preparing for the physical fitness tests in PE. These PE teachers were pretty hard-core nazi's about the prez fitnes tests- they wanted all the students to do well so it was a feather in their cap (and the school's). The kids were put on a running program, and their grade was based on daily improvement. S would go out and bust his hump running the mile or sprints or out-and-backs, or whatever it is they run, day after day, then have to pitch. Pitching speed and control comes from the legs, so he'd get so frustrated to go into a games "sore" and "tired" from running. Even his baseball workouts weren't that tough!</p>
<p>PE is required of everyone in our sch. too. Up until 3 years ago two years of PE was required but has since been dropped down to one PE credit due to students/parents complaining about not being able to take all the AP classes they wanted (weighted 2 extra points) because of taking the unweighted PE.</p>
<p>My S2 is a 4 year football player who starts summer workouts in June and practices every day after school for 3 hours until mid November. He gets no credit for it and still had to do the mandatory PE also. Besides the mandatory regular PE, the football coaches strongly "encourage" taking strength and conditioning class which S2 did for two years. He was finally able to get out of that one this year due to leaving sch. early for a dual-enrollment class at the CC.</p>
<p>I think S#1 prep school got it right. All students are required to play a sport a season. There is no PE requirement (not subject to state ed laws). If they participate in a sport that is not offered at the school i.e. competitive figure skating, then they could get a waiver from playing a school sport during that season.
There are sports at all levels (varsity, JV, subvarsity, third team etc) so not only the elite athlete can compete but also the less athletic student.
There is also an arts requirement at the school</p>
<p>They see this as "educating" the whole child--mind, body and spirit</p>
<p>I like that philosophy</p>
<p>I think if the people complaining about dollars going to sports would go out and raise as much money as the sports kids/parents usually do, they would be able to fund their school's activities to their satisfaction as well. At our school, each athlete pays as he/she goes (anywhere from 75.00 to 650.00 per season), and our sports teams often give a percentage of their fundraisng revenues to the principal for his tutoring/mentoring program(s) in addition to helping fund athletes and tournaments, etc. I don't think our choir, band, or performing arts department has done this, but perhaps the OP could start a movement to involve non-sports groups in fundraising so the money issue woud be a moot point. Or, start a foundation, as we have in my area, to raise money for whatever activities the board of your foundation votes to support. Sports, like it or not, are popular in this country and tend to draw both community and financial support. Don't fight the system, just add to it so that your priorities can be funded as well. Athletes can be smart and well rounded and so can kids who choose not to participate in sports.</p>
<p>That's great advice bessie! Would you mind including female athletes to the list of people who could go out and fundraise more? I know that's a mean generalization, but if they were to go out and fundraise, in many cases, Title IX wouldn't even be an issue!</p>
<p>"Most people who don't 'get it' either aren't trying to understand or can't get over the fact that they don't have any athletic ability. "</p>
<p>Hey, guys! I'm the one who has been flamed beyond the grave for asking the obviously offensive that launched this post. I think it bears mentioning that I was not a bad athlete myself. Gymnastics. Scholarship at a mediocre school. Lots of injuries. Mom obsessed with my sports career and never interested in what I did academically. My H was also a high school athlete. A D1 swimmer who quit his sport after a year because he found it impossible to pursue his academic interests fully. He earned a doctorate, I got a Masters, we're fairly normal people, I think. Pretty fit. Run the occasional marathon. We just question how sports influences the academic achievement of our kids overall. I guess that's something of a crime in many of your views. Hmmm . . . . I'm reminded of the religious right by some of the posts. Any time asking a question makes you want to club someone, I think it's a good idea to take a deep breath and take stock of what's driving you.</p>
<p>mammall,</p>
<p>Why are you surprised that you are being "flamed beyond the grave"?</p>
<p>You start a topic by flaming student athletes with the following</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have rarely heard of students in my city attending a college with much in the way of name recognition on a sports scholarship.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i.e. athletes don't go to well known schools.</p>
<p>And then you continue on with
[quote]
Furthermore, the students in my daughters' high school who pursue sports really hard rarely seem to go to very selective schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i.e. athletes don't go to very good schools either.</p>
<p>And then continue to add insult with...
[quote]
They usually lack the gpa and scores.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i.e. They are dumb too. That is why they go to non-selective schools.</p>
<p>And continue to pile on with...
[quote]
A fair number seem to go to regional little known small private schools with, say, 1/2 tuition scholarships.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i.e. Insulting their choice of school because they went there with FA.</p>
<p>And continue the barrage even when not in school with...</p>
<p>
[quote]
When I think of all the sports camps, travel team costs, private coaching, etc. -- not to mention the opportunity costs in terms of building their intellectual side, I just really don't see the point.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i.e. kids are supposed to spend their weekends and summers home with their nose in a book instead of doing what they enjoy.</p>
<p>And then generalize about the athletes health and dietary habits and family life with...
[quote]
Fitness is very important to me, but even that seems to be lost these days as I see students getting injured, gulping down fast food on their way to meets, and having parent role models who are sadly out of shape themselves because they're always at a game or picking up from a practice instead of at home having a nutritious dinner as a family.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And you finish up your flame fest with a slap at the country as a whole and their choice of leisure activity...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know sports is practically the national religion right now but wonder if any parents on here share my views.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You got one thing right though...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I get lonely.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And you are surprised why you are lonely on this thread?</p>
<p>Uh, you might want to examine your own posts before complaining about the flaming...</p>
<p>Perhaps the USC football team should not expect kids to be lifting weights in their spare time and studying film. They shouldn't have all jocks. Maybe the first stringers should be athletic superstars, and then fill the bench with a bunch of guys with some athletic talent but who are well-rounded. </p>
<p>Better yet, they should then stop having games so no one can tell just how many of the second-stringers and third-stringers are unathletic. Just base the rankings on reputation. Send the few Reggie Bush types to the NFL and then people assume that the people backing him up were only slightly less athletic.</p>
<p>So maybe someone like Emmitt Smith has their heart set on being on the USC football team, but they've already got a running back recruit that year and it's Reggie Bush. And he can't be a second or third-stringer because we've got to fill that with people who play the tuba or had 1000 volunteer hours. Hey, they can run with the ball, so what's the difference. They can "do the work." </p>
<p>Imagine if Notre Dame didn't have to play any games and they were #1 year after year in the rankings just on reputation. Imagine what kind of upheaval there would be.</p>
<p>I just don't understand people's hypocrisy. People are brutal about whether certain sports stars deserve their position or the hype surrounding them. Yet they are overjoyed when someone gets into an ivy without good stats. </p>
<p>Now, people getting in off of athletic ability has never really bothered me. Unlike other non-academic things which give people a boost in college admissions (read: leadership and community activities), athleticism is a talent which can't be faked. However, I will add that I do think it's dumb that a guy who gets in everywhere automatically if he's smart enough to get into a magnet school and is drafted by major league baseball. The guys who were pretty good athletes but were smart enough to be professors didn't get that type of treatment, and their choices were more limited. If you're in the 99.9th percentile academically but only in the 90th percentile athletically, it's a crapshoot to get in. However, if you are in the 90th percentile academically and the 99.9th percentile, you are nearly automatic everywhere.</p>
<p>Nice analysis goaliedad. I felt my hackles rise at each of those jabs as well.</p>