<p>Basically, at St John's College I am paying nearly full price, basically 50k</p>
<p>but</p>
<p>At UMD I am paying only room and board.</p>
<p>The end result is a 120K difference, and my parents said they would keep the difference in an account to pay for grad school. I was also accepted into the College Park Scholars Program there for Science, Technology, and Society (research).</p>
<p>I feel that St. John's College's program and student body are a better fit for me, and I really do think that they learn more in a week than the average student does in a year. I am not too worried about internships and the like, I currently work at Apple and in high school I've interned for three law firms one being the State Attorney's office. I've always been able to find a job or internship. But I'm very weary of the small campus (500 kids) and, of course, the HUGE cost in comparison to Maryland. Honestly I don't know if the better education I would get at SJC is worth the debt I may accrue at grad school after, or if it will really change me in a way that would help my future job prospects.</p>
<p>I am definitely going to grad school after under grad unless I start my own business while I'm in college.</p>
<p>The two are as different as night and day. I loved St. John’s, but ultimately decided not to apply there because I thought it was just too hardcore for me (and I applied to UChicago and Reed).</p>
<p>It sounds like you’d thrive at St. John’s, and normally I would advise you to go there… but that’s an awful lot of money. I don’t think a stranger on the internet can give you any useful advice on this. You and your parents need to decide if you’re willing to pay that much.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I think St. John’s would change you in ways Maryland wouldn’t. It’s the only genuine liberal arts college I can think of, in the sense of making its students into true Renaissance men (and women).</p>
<p>My parents and everyone else I’ve asked have pretty much given me the “there is no wrong choice” speech. I won’t act solely on the advice of someone online, but any insight could help me make a decision.</p>
<p>This is very very difficult.</p>
<p>But thank you very much…Can you elaborate on why you felt SJC was too hardcore?</p>
<p>Obviously if your school needs to be in Maryland, then Shimer won’t do the job, but if not, you (and anyone else in a similar quandary) really might want to consider it. </p>
<p>And if you have any doubts about Shimer’s academics, location, or community, a visit could be very much worth your time. </p>
<p>Anyway, just putting it out there…</p>
<p>(… just another Shimer alum wandering the CC boards …)</p>
<p>I’d heard of Shimer but for some reason I never took a very hard look. What are the differences between Shimer and SJC?</p>
<p>it seems that Shimer is less “intense” though. Unlike SJC which is all books all the time. I like that, but I also am weary of their more lax approach to science and math.</p>
<p>SJC is wonderful in theory. For some students, I’m sure it is wonderful in practice, too. The Great Books model, the approach to grading, and the role of the faculty as “Dons” and fellow learners, all deserve respect and emulation.</p>
<p>I’d have several concerns. First, they seem to have trouble attracting (and keeping) the high caliber of student needed to keep Great Books discussions at a high level; so, I recommend you visit classes and otherwise investigate this. Second, it is really really tiny, with <500 students, which could be very limiting. Third, they don’t seem to have great financial aid, which might further limit the diversity of students you encounter. I’ve heard that SJC has become a magnet for rich conservatives with an ideological ax to grind. If this is true, and maybe it is not, then regardless of your own politics you might want to consider the impact on discussion and other aspects of the college atmosphere.</p>
<p>For all these reasons, I would recommend that any top student interested in SJC also consider Chicago or Reed College. These are larger, better-resourced schools that do not take a purist approach to the Great Books concept, but which have been fellow-travelers on the same (or similar) educational path.</p>
<p>Do you have other options besides UMCP or SJC? SJC offers a “summer classics” program, which you might be able to integrate into your program at another college, in case you decide you aren’t ready to commit 4 years, 100% to the SJC plan but still want significant exposure to that kind of learning.</p>
<p>but as far as the colleges I’m considering yes, those are the two.</p>
<p>I’m a senior in highschool, so I am not going to be able to look at other colleges. Also, I have looked at other colleges so its really just these two.</p>
<p>O.K., then you have a hard choice. I live in your area and am not crazy about UMCP (though I am not familiar with the ST&S program). A relative attended the SJC summer classics programs, which he described as one of the best experiences in his life. My own emotional preference would be for St. John’s despite all the reservations I expressed above (assuming you can do it without incurring big debts). Graduate student costs in the arts & sciences typically are funded by the school (in case you’re concerned about how to pay for that after SJC). </p>
<p>If SJC does not work out for you, you can transfer. They do have a relatively low 4 year graduation rate (~60%) but a year or two there could stand on its own as excellent preparation for continued studies elsewhere.</p>
<p>I would expect that if you go for a PhD in psych or anthro, most of your costs will be covered by the program. Look into this before trusting advice from sketchy people like me over the Internet. Maybe contact department chairs at a couple of schools with strong PhD programs (Harvard, Chicago, Michigan, Berkeley etc.) Or ask SJC about how their recent graduates have fared not only in graduate admissions but in securing fellowships.</p>
<p>^ Most top academic PhD programs are fully funded. Generally speaking, it makes no sense to self pay to prepare for academic career because the training takes a long time (6-8 years on average) and the career is not high paying.</p>
<p>On the other hand, you generally have to pay for professional graduate programs ( law medicine business, etc) so you need to factor this in.</p>
<p>You will get a better liberal arts education at SJC–but that is a big difference in cost.</p>
<p>Shimer accepts applications year-round, and as I understand it, there is generally no problem getting considered for fall admission if your application is in by some time in June. The best person to talk to about the differences between Shimer and St. John’s is probably [Cassie</a> Sherman](<a href=“http://shimer.edu/admissions/admissionsoffice.cfm]Cassie”>http://shimer.edu/admissions/admissionsoffice.cfm), a Johnnie (and all-around awesome human being) who is currently running the Admissions Office at Shimer. </p>
<p>From a look at the St. John’s curriculum, their math and science requirements do seem a bit steeper than Shimer’s. But I should note that since Shimer has a coarticulation agreement with the Illinois Institute of Technology, the option of taking very challenging – though non-Great-Books-oriented – science and math courses is readily available. </p>
<p>Some general differences: Shimer does offer a bit more flexibility than St. John’s in terms of electives &c. The readings for the Shimer Core include more recent and contemporary texts than are read at St. John’s. Culturally, Shimer’s smaller size leads to a somewhat closer-knit community, and its tradition of self-governance leads to a somewhat greater sense of ownership and participation. The early entrance and [weekend</a> college programs](<a href=“http://www.shimer.edu/academicprograms/undergraduate/weekendprogram.cfm]weekend”>http://www.shimer.edu/academicprograms/undergraduate/weekendprogram.cfm) lead to a student body somewhat more diverse in age and outlook than SJC’s.</p>
<p>If you have GREAT intellectual curiosity, go to STJ Annapolis, or else go to UMCP and attend lectures for Frosh year, settle in and get good grades.</p>
<p>Hi Dinozzo! When I check my thread, I find your very patient answer. Surprised! Very patient and detailed! I think if you do have such an interest in SJC, you should go. I was told that always follow your heart but make sure that it is in a sensible mood. It seems that u pretty fit into the program. Go and try because you have many more advantages than I have since I am an international student. </p>
<p>Btw, actually I know your ID because before I posted my dilemma, I’ve searched in the forum and found yours. What an interesting thing!</p>
<p>I admire the program at St John, quite interesting, I’d want to talk to current and former students before going in such an esoteric direction. You really ended up without many choices. I like the first post by TK21769.</p>
<p>Can I please tell you that ’ weary’ means tired, and I don’t think you mean you are tired of these programs. Perhaps you are ‘leery’ and if you are you shouldn’t attend without doing your homework with regard to visiting, talking to current students and finding some alum to talk to.</p>
<p>If you got into an honors program at UMCP, then you will have a strong peer group to interact with. That’s important. And opportunities for research as an undergrad isn’t to be overlooked for anyone aspiring to grad school. The undergrad doesn’t need to be related but the experience is valuable.</p>
<p>The massive cost difference makes it a nobrainer to me. Do you buy a luxury product just cause you can, with no regard to other use for those funds? Those funds will be very useful later if you find that you want to get a Master’s degree or a professional degree. Even if you did get into a funded PhD program, you will have to live very poorly for many years and extra cash will help a lot. Remember, that you should expect your experiences and interests to mature and change your outlook over the next 3 years, so you might have differing aspirations come Sr year. Good luck.</p>
<p>@TK21769<br>
Hi, I am facing similar dilemma as Dinozzo does, except SJC offers me 41K per year and the other is Lafayette, also offering 40k. Hence I don’t have much financial problems between these two. However, after I read about your post, I’ve not caught the point of this sentence:" I’ve heard that SJC has become a magnet for rich conservatives with an ideological ax to grind. " Would you explain about bit more? Thank you very much!</p>
<p>It seems then that you are suggesting UMCP would be a better choice, because of the research opportunities and cost benefit? (Oh, your right leery is the word I was looking for, thank you).</p>
<p>But having visited I can tell you the student body isn’t the same</p>
<p>^ ^ My S, who has a friend who attends SJC in Santa Fe, has suggested to me that the school tends to attract more than its share of right-wing reactionaries. I don’t know if this is really true or not. Even if it is, the trends probably change from year to year. What I really want to emphasize is that, to make a Great Books program work well, the quality of the student body is especially important (because discussion is such an important part of the program). </p>
<p>Ideology is not the only thing that could derail a Great Books discussion. Conversation can suffer if too many students are shy, lazy and unprepared, struggling too much with the language, egotistical, or distracted. The admission process is the first step in managing the discussion quality, but it can work well only if they get a critical mass of strong applicants. Then the tutors (“Dons”) have to do their work. If good mentors are working well with good, motivated students, you should see significant improvement in the quality of discussion by the second year of the program. This is something I recommend applicants try to observe in visits to first year and more advanced classes. Ask students about the quality of discussion in and out of class. Ask them how they’ve changed after a year or more at SJC.</p>
<p>I’m not saying you should avoid this school if every seminar doesn’t flow like one of Plato’s dialogs. However, I do think there is some extra work and risk involved in making a Great Books program work well. Maybe this is one reason it has not been more widely adopted. On the other hand, if the alternative is 200-student lecture classes, I’d accept the risk.</p>
Go and try because you have many more advantages than I have since I am an international student. </p>