Stanford, Georgetown (SFS), Oxford or Madison for International Relations

College Search & Selection
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<p>Our son has been accepted into the University of Oxford (to read Russian and German), Stanford University, Georgetown University (School of Foreign Service) and University of Wisconsin-Madison (Russian Flagship Program). All four are in the running, but I think he is leaning toward SFS or Stanford. He plans to study International Relations at Stanford, with either a double major in Russian or a minor in Russian and another minor in Modern Foreign Languages (German and Spanish). At SFS, he would major in Comparative Studies (Russia, Eurasia and Eastern Europe and either the Middle East or Western Europe). He wants to study abroad during his junior year in St. Petersburg, and can do that at SFS and Stanford with CIEE. (It appears a little easier to do at SFS because Georgetown has preapproved the CIEE program and he would have to get approval for it at Stanford.) He is overseas on an exchange program scholarship this year so he is unfortunately unable to attend the admitted students' weekend, which would probably make the decision much easier. We know he can't go wrong with any of the schools--they are all great schools--but if any current students or alum have any insights into being an IR and foreign languages major at Stanford, studying abroad with Stanford or a BSFS student at SFS, we would welcome your comments. Also, would we gain anything if we as parents attended the admitted students' weekend? We've been to Georgetown with our son (last April) and to Stanford before he was born (so, yes, our son has never been to Stanford--we didn't really expect him to get in). Finally, our advice might be something like go to Oxford if you want to be a professor, go to SFS if you want to join the foreign service or work in DC, go to Madison to save money or go to Stanford if you want to go to Stanford (an all around great university where he would enjoy the campus and the more informal (than Oxford) and more liberal (than SFS) atmosphere and would join the triathlon team to swim, bike and run). The problem with our advice is that he hasn't decided on his future career. He may be interested in international law, foreign service, peace corps, journalism, translating, teaching, etc. Thanks for your input!</p>

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<p>Whereas Stanford and Oxford are in the same league, can’t say the same about the others. A thing to consider (from a financial point): he will finish in 3 years at Oxford, but it will take 4 years at Stanford. I would save Stanford for graduate studies, as that’s the field where it excels, while the focus of Oxford is undergraduate teaching, and the college and tutorial system is unparalleled (save Cambridge). Oxford clearly have the edge in East European studies (and humanities in overall), partially because it’s in Europe. For foreign service, I would choose Princeton anyway :D</p>

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<p>Oxford or sfs for truly special undergraduate experiences and courses. Dc has the internship advantages with the world bank, imf, state dept. Usaid, etc.<br>
Stanford for graduate studies, unless of course the california lifestyle is a factor and your son wants a US college atmosphere with football Saturday’s etc. Then Stanford all the way. You should be proud this is quite an impressive selection.</p>

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<p>Stanford for the undecided. Oxford for grad school.</p>

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<p>Why on earth did he apply to Oxford if he’s interested in IR, politics and area studies? Modern languages at Oxford (at undergrad level) is mostly the study of literature - if lit isn’t his cup of tea then go somewhere else.</p>

<p>Sounds like he should have applied to Cambridge, their languages degrees are much less lit heavy; or UCL which is the best place in the world to study Russian/Eastern and Central Europe.</p>

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<p>I would run, not walk, to Georgetown SFS.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your input. This is a hard decision, but one where luckily there isn’t a bad choice. GeraldM: I agree that Stanford and Oxford are in the same league. His program at Oxford is actually a 4 year program (with one year in Russia), but surprisingly it is still less expensive than Stanford and SFS. 1789: I agree that Oxford and SFS would be a special undergrad experience, but the California lifestyle (liberal, good weather, lots of opportunities to run and swim) with football Saturdays is attractive. Thank you 1789 for your kind words. Dionysus58: Thank you for getting us back to his original goal. He was excited to apply to Oxford because he loves foreign languages and even likes literature. He originally loved the idea of only studying languages/literature. But his whole exchange year, he has faced a lot of opposition to going to Oxford. He’s been told repeatedly from his host mother that “people don’t go to school to study foreign languages.” I think he added International Relations to his majors/minors at Stanford in response to this pressure. But now his host mother wants him to turn down Oxford and Stanford and go to SFS because she thinks that is the only one that will lead to a job. That’s why bluebayou is right that Stanford is perfect for the undecided. Then he can figure out what he wants! Pizzagirl: I love your enthusiasm! SFS is a very special program.</p>

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<p>I second Pizzagirl. I too would run, not walk, to Georgetown SFS. Just like Stanford is in the heart of Silicon Valley and thus has huge influence in technology, Georgetown is located in the heart of America’s political hub and the center of international protocol.</p>

<p>Even being undecided, all the things he is interested in such as international law (good job, good pay and can lead to careers in business and leadership), foreign service (not bad for government work), peace corps (a nice adventure before your real career), journalism ($30K a year with no benefits - no thanks), translating (Mmmmm
 your kid is better than that. Let him hire translators while he becomes a decision maker), teaching (If he has the calling), etc. are mainstays at Georgetown.</p>

<p>Go to Georgetown!!</p>

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<p>Stanford and Georgetown, and Duke for that matter, are pretty similar in that they are elite academic schools which also have competitive specator sports programs where students can unwind. Stanford is obviously the best at turning athletes into pros, but Georgetown’s basketball games are quite fun, especially during March Madness, if your son is into that sort of thing.</p>

<p>As for outdoor activities DC’s climate is quite nice during the school year and it is a great runner’s city. There are a number of races throughout the year including the Marine Corp Marathon, the Cherry Blossom, etc. There are plenty of places to run too. Running along the Potomac, with the monuments as a back drop is special, plus there is a National Park (Rock Creek) steps from Georgetown’s campus. Georgetown attracts a lot of runners, in fact the women’s cross country team recently won the 2011 NCAA national championship. Not too shabby for an “urban” school.</p>

<p>Moreover, Georgetown is known for languages too. Until recently, they had an entire college (school of languages and linguistics) entirely dedicated to studying foreign languages, until it was absorbed by the College of Arts and Sciences during a restructuring.</p>

<p>In the end I don’t think he’d be sacrificing much in terms of lifestyle if he chooses SFS over Stanford. It may come down to what type of architecture he prefers.</p>

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<p>International relations is the [third</a> most popular](<a href=“http://facts.stanford.edu/undergraduate.html]third”>http://facts.stanford.edu/undergraduate.html) major at Stanford, after biology and economics. </p>

<p>Stanford has a program called [Stanford</a> in Government<a href=“SIG”>/url</a> that gives fellowships to work in Washington DC and runs different programs/events in DC and on campus. IIRC there’s also a Sophomore College class for it that spends time in DC (SoCo is a three-week program before sophomore year where you intensively study a topic with a professor). Half the students at Stanford choose to study abroad, and many do it multiple times. International studies at Stanford occurs across a wide variety of units, including the poli sci department (ranked #1 in both US News and NRC) and the [url=&lt;a href=“http://fsi.stanford.edu%5DFreeman”&gt;http://fsi.stanford.edu]Freeman</a> Spogli Institute for International Studies (FSI Stanford)<a href=“also%20very%20prestigious”>/url</a>. Stanford is also reputed to be one of the best for Russian/Soviet studies. Several years ago, Stanford had a choice to focus on the Soviet Union or the Middle East, and it decided on the former, bringing in top scholars on the subject, including Condoleezza Rice (who got her position as Secretary of State largely because of her career focusing on the Soviet Union). Of course, then the Soviet Union fell and Stanford has had to play catch-up in Middle Eastern studies, but it’s still one of the best schools for Russian and East European studies today.</p>

<p>[url=&lt;a href=“http://creees.stanford.edu/]Center”&gt;http://creees.stanford.edu/]Center</a> for Russian, East European & Eurasian Studies](<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/group/SIG/cgi-bin/wordpress/]Stanford”>http://www.stanford.edu/group/SIG/cgi-bin/wordpress/)</p>

<p>Foreign languages at Stanford are great, esp. the [Special</a> Language Program](<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/dept/SLP/]Special”>http://www.stanford.edu/dept/SLP/), which will actually recruit and hire instructors and/or language partners for you if you want to study a language not regularly offered. Past offerings include Ukrainian and Kazakh, among myriad others.</p>

<p>The Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace, which focuses on domestic policy and international affairs, has a huge [roster</a> of distinguished scholars](<a href=“http://www.hoover.org/taskforces/members/by-name]roster”>http://www.hoover.org/taskforces/members/by-name) in economics (including several Nobels), political science, international affairs, public policy, etc. Along with the institution comes the Hoover Library & Archives, which has tons of interesting material, e.g. the Iraq Baath Party documents that were uncovered after Hussein was removed. One Hoover program of possible interest is the [Russian</a> Economy project](<a href=“http://www.hoover.org/research/projects-and-programs/russian-economy]Russian”>http://www.hoover.org/research/projects-and-programs/russian-economy).</p>

<p>While Georgetown is reputed to be the best for FS, Stanford does quite well between FSI and Hoover, in addition to all the smaller units/centers. Of course, if your son is undecided, then Stanford is definitely the better choice, as it’s ranked in the top 5 across all its disciplines in US News, and similarly in the NRC. It’s also the only school in the world to make the top 5 in all broad disciplines in the THE [rankings[/url</a>] (humanities/arts, social sciences, engineering, physical sciences, life sciences, clinical sciences), so your son has the comfort of knowing that no matter what he majors in, he’ll be in a top department with the best professors, peers, programs, facilities, and curricula. He should take a look at these links:</p>

<p>[url=&lt;a href=“http://internationalrelations.stanford.edu/academics/summer_research]Summer”&gt;http://internationalrelations.stanford.edu/academics/summer_research]Summer</a> Research 2012 | Program in International Relations](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/social-sciences.html]rankings[/url”>Subject Ranking 2011-12: Social Sciences | Times Higher Education (THE))
<a href=“http://explorecourses.stanford.edu/[/url]”>http://explorecourses.stanford.edu/&lt;/a&gt; (esp. for International Policy Studies (IPS), International Relations, Institute for International Studies, Slavic Languages, Slavic Literature, Slavic General, among others)
[Overseas</a> Courses](<a href=“http://internationalrelations.stanford.edu/courses/overseas_2011_2012]Overseas”>http://internationalrelations.stanford.edu/courses/overseas_2011_2012)</p>

<p>He should also contact the Peer Advisors for IR - I’m sure they’d be happy to talk about Stanford’s offerings in IR:</p>

<p><a href=“http://internationalrelations.stanford.edu/people/peer_advisors[/url]”>http://internationalrelations.stanford.edu/people/peer_advisors&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Forgot to add: Stanford just finished the most successful fundraising campaign in collegiate history ($6.2 billion), a key part of which is the International Initiative.</p>

<p>[The</a> Stanford Challenge | Final Report | Highlights in the International Initiative](<a href=“http://thestanfordchallenge.stanford.edu/highlights-by-initiative/international/]The”>http://thestanfordchallenge.stanford.edu/highlights-by-initiative/international/)</p>

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<p>sorry, but I don’t see the big advantage of GU over S. International work --there is no such thing as international law, btw – is first and foremost prestige-driven. Credentials matter a lot more outside of the US borders. So, in my mind that narrows it down to just two.</p>

<p>For a US citizen to have any shot to break into international policy, they need international work experience and likely a grad degree. The Peace Corps fits the bill, for example, but one doesn’t need GU ‘connections’ to join the PC. One also does not need GU connections to snag an internship at State. (My son did the Moscow-thing, but did even consider GU.)</p>

<p>SFS is perfect for the grad degree, as is Hopkins-SAIS, as well as few others (any degree from H gives instant prestige overseas).</p>

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<p>While I can not comment on the language programs at either Georgetown or Stanford, I can tell you about our observations during GAAP weekend as parents. Our son was accepted into SFS as well and we attended the weekend in March. We were all very impressed by the weekend and came away with a feeling that Georgetown was the perfect place to explore lots of different interests that would lead to many different career paths. One of the most impressive factors was sitting in on a lecture by a SFS professor. Our class was on Al Qaeda counter terrorism and it was amazing. It was a interactive lecture and we all left a little more educated. When we left that class, my son was pretty sure this was the place for him. During the weekend there were 7-8 classes to choose from and I’m pretty sure languages were one choice available. We also found hearing from the Dean of the school and a student panel of current SFS students very informative. In my opinion, as parents, you could have a better idea of the school and maybe even, with permission, tape some of the speakers to share with your son later. Also, FWIW, a friend of mine has 2 sons. One at Georgetown and one at Stanford. Both are amazing schools, but very different vibes that may speak more to one student than another. Good luck with your decision!</p>

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<p>I meant to link to this:</p>

<p>[Fellows</a> by name | Hoover Institution](<a href=“http://www.hoover.org/fellows/by-name]Fellows”>http://www.hoover.org/fellows/by-name)</p>

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<p>I really appreciate all this helpful information–I can’t wait to skype with my son tomorrow! One question about culture, or as laserp mentioned, the different vibes–does anyone care to comment on the cultures–which one is more of a “party school” and would it be fair to say that Stanford is more liberal in general (or maybe not with the Hoover Institution)?</p>

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<p>I can’t speak to Georgetown’s party culture, but Stanford has a reputation for work-hard-play-hard (the whole laid-back attitude, etc.). While parties are abundant in the Row houses (less so in the dorms), one can easily avoid the party scene as well. Many prefer more laid-back fun with friends. If you have a party, you have to register it with Stanford’s student activities office, and they’re rated on a scale of 1-5: 1’s are small-group parties with your friends and don’t need to register, but 2’s and above do. 2 = invite-only party (tons of these), 3 = all-campus party (lots of these every weekend, usually on Thursday/Friday/Saturday). Can’t remember the difference between 4 and 5, but one of them is open to off-campus people as well.</p>

<p>Stanford is very liberal, which is unsurprising given that it’s in the most liberal place in the US (the SF Bay Area). You’re right that the exception is Hoover, which is known for conservative and libertarian ideologies. I’m not sure about Georgetown, but my gut tells me that it’s a little more conservative because it’s a Jesuit school (but still probably liberal on the whole).</p>

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<p>Here’s a ranking of undergraduate IR programs from Foreign Policy magazine, based on surveys of faculty and policy makers - Stanford is #3, Georgetown #5:</p>

<p>[The</a> Top Ten International Relations Undergraduate Programs | Foreign Policy](<a href=“http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/03/top_ten_international_relations_undergraduate_programs?page=0,2]The”>http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/03/top_ten_international_relations_undergraduate_programs?page=0,2)</p>

<p>More detailed explanation of the methodology:</p>

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<p>Regarding Georgetown student life I am copying a post from medman on the Georgetown forum which compares duke to georgetown. I think this is relevant because it accurately describes Georgetown and compares it to another well known work hard play hard school. It would not be inappropriate to replace duke/ Durham with Stanford/ palo alto and get a proxy comparison of Stanford and Georgetown’s party scene.</p>

<p>Congratulations on two great options!!! I know Duke and Georgetown very well–I transferred from Duke to Georgetown, and my sister graduated from the business school at Georgetown. Even though the schools are similar in many ways–talented student body, great school spirit–they are remarkably different as well in terms of the undergraduate experience. Duke has a beautiful campus–the “Gothic Wonderland”–with a “bubble-like” experience–that is, there is little that occurs off campus that has any relevance to the Duke experience, mostly because Durham doesn’t offer much. Social life is dominated by Greek-life (don’t let them tell you otherwise–they’ll state that only 50% of the students pledge Greek life, but 25% can’t as freshman, and there are “selective houses” that aren’t Greek but might as well be–the Greek-social life of heavy alcohol parties in frats/dorms is the major social experience) and basketball, and there is a work hard-play hard mentality that creates a divide between academic life and social life. Georgetown has the best of all worlds in that it has a wonderful campus located in a phenomenal college-town atmosphere that is part of one of the best cities in the world. Washington, DC provides tremendous opportunities socially, culturally, academically, and professionally, so the life of a Georgetown undergraduate generally is more integrated (socially and academically), and you will find that Georgetown faculty and students utilize the resources of the city in a very compelling way. The social life is far more diverse–yes, you will find dorm/apartment/house parties just like the Duke frat party scence, but there are so many additional options (bars, clubs, restaurants, Smithsonian, Kennedy Center, Georgetown the town, downtown DC–all within walking distance or a short metro ride away). School spirit at Georgetown is incredibly strong, but you won’t find students “camping out” days in advance for basketball games like at Duke simply because there are far more options and opportunities that exist. </p>

<p>Additionally, the undergraduate experience at Georgetown focuses on real-life applications of knowledge as well, using DC resources. A big difference between the educational experience is that Georgetown is much, MUCH more undergraduate-focused whereas Duke faculty are generally more focused on graduate students. The relationships with the faculty and administration that you will develop at Georgetown are definitely stronger–it is not uncommon to have faculty meet you at The Tomb’s (great student-hangout on campus) or have class at their home. Resources for international business are incredible with The World Bank and International Monetary Fund in walking distance. Business students generally will not have Friday classes and will use that time for internship and work experiences like at The Bank or IMF. Georgetown undergraduate business students are highly recrutied on Wall Street–my sister received multiple offers and is at JP Morgan-Chase in their young leadership program; the Georgetown network in business is incredible, with Georgetown’s Wall Street Alliance–alumni who assist Georgetown students and graduates to obtain positions on Wall Street as well as in business generally, including internationally. My sister also worked for The Corp, which is the largest student run business in the world that provides multiple services for students on campus (“Students Serving Students” is their motto–they run grocery stores, travel, storage, coffe shops, textbook resales, a credit union, etc.–completely operated and managed by students). With all of these experiences and the location, along with one of the best and most comprehensive study abroad program in the country, I cannot imagine a better place to be for international business than Georgetown.</p>

<p>Lastly, there is a commitment to serving others that is intrinsic to the Georgetown experience–a desire to use knowledge to make the community and the world a better place. This is part of the Jesuit tradition that makes the Georgetown experience unique as well. I am not Catholic, but I found the Jesuit tradition to be one of the most compelling parts of my undergraduate experience. This tradition, along with a cosmopolitan, diverse student body in an international city would seem to make your decision a no-brainer.</p>

<p>Transferring from Duke to Georgetown was the best decision I ever made!!! Best of luck with your decision! Hoya Saxa!!!</p>

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<p>^ the main difference from that description is that Stanford’s social scene is not Greek-dominated at all. I’d also say Stanford has more undergraduate focus than this description would lead you to believe (5:1 student:faculty ratio at Stanford vs. 11:1 at Georgetown)</p>

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<p>[Pipeline</a> to the Beltway? | Foreign Policy](<a href=“http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/03/pipeline_to_the_beltway]Pipeline”>http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/03/pipeline_to_the_beltway)</p>

<p>Foreign Policy also rated which universities are the best pipeline to high level jobs in the Washington policy community. Georgetown ranked second.</p>

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