<p>Its not muslims that can't handle sarcasm, its any and all religious extremists. The vast majority of all religious people are open to all types of comedy and its a shame that small minorities can give a whole culture a bad name.</p>
<p>Oh, please stop confusing all muslims with islamic funadamentalists. Thanks Gentleman for clearing that up for the brilliant OP.</p>
<p>I explicitly said Muslims "on the whole."</p>
<p>... which is exactly where you're wrong. You're talking about a small group of people who would not appreciate sarcasm, not associated with "Muslims on the whole." Are you saying that because Christian fundamentalists exist, that Christians "on the whole" do not appreciate sarcasm?</p>
<p>That was really hilarious...</p>
<p>Depends on the geographical region which we're talking about. US and European "Christians" are far less fanatic than say, their Latin American counterparts and while a drawing that defiles Jesus or the Pope might not get a lot of attention in France, you can bet that it will in throughout Latin America. (I use quotation marks around "Christians" because we all know that the Christian religion in the US and Europe has largely securalized itself in order to unsuccessfully accomodate a secularizing public.)</p>
<p>I like the way this website puts it: "Sometimes one may find displays of pious devotion that may seem extreme to many foreigners, such as approaching the altar on knees or scenes of flagellation. It's important to know the importance of Catholicism for many Mexicans and to respect their customs as a part of their culture and heritage." (<a href="http://www.solutionsabroad.com/a_religionmexico.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.solutionsabroad.com/a_religionmexico.asp</a>) Would Mexicans of all generations and individual states fight for Catholicism? Yes, they would. Would their relatives in the US? Probably not, especially the younger ones who have been throughly securalized by schools, peers, and American adolescent culture. </p>
<p>But I stand by what I said, Islam is a religion whose practitioners have, on the whole, never had an experience with freedom of expression and instintively oppose it whenever they see it. There are some exceptions, of course, like European Muslims who though might be upset that they are treated like scum, did not, on the whole, rise up against the Mohammed cartoons. That's because they've been getting used to freedom of expression, however sacriligious it might be, and learn to live with it either out of fear, apathy, or haplessness. The same can not be said of Muslims in underdeveloped Africa, South Asia, and the Middle East-the ones whose mostly fundamentalist leaders will read this article and use it to further indoctrinate their determined followers into believing that destroying the West would be pleasing not only to Allah, but to an infidel spokesman.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Islam is a religion whose practitioners have, on the whole, never had an experience with freedom of expression and instintively oppose it whenever they see it.
[/quote]
I simply don't agree with this. The problem with what you're saying is that you are confusing Islam as a religion with the political regimes in place in such regions. You are also confusing political leaders with the masses: not because a leader may be fundamentalist means that the citizens of an Islamic country would not understand or want freedom of expression.
[quote]
fundamentalist leaders will read this article and use it to further indoctrinate their determined followers into believing that destroying the West would be pleasing not only to Allah, but to an infidel spokesman.
[/quote]
This is also not true. Just as not all people in the US agree with Bush's policies, not all citizens of countries with an Islamic fundamentalist leader. Since Islam does not condone "destroying the west" and never says once that any kind of destruction would please Allah, I stand by what I said, that many citizens are not followers. Again, you have confused two very different groups of people. Let me repeat: the vast majority of muslims are NOT fundamentalist. Also, you are wrong about Middle Eastern countries: Egypt, for example, is a country far more intellectually developed than many would think. A man cannot marry more than one women there, the realization of divorce by a women has become possible etc. Do not try to sound intellectual about concepts and facts of which you know nothing.</p>
<p>What you are saying is utter rubbish. Of course the majority of Muslims are fundamentalist. There are over one billion of them and they live in areas which naturally foster fundamentalism. If we can take the West as an example, fundamentalism of any kind (political, religious, etc.) arises whenever a group or individual see themselves as an oppresed minority and convince the masses that they too are oppresed and should rally to The Cause. (Protestant Reformation, American independence and expansionism, women's movement, Nazi Germany, etc.) This is what is happening across the Islamic World as we type. </p>
<p>Personally, I think you are guilty of Westercentricism. In the West, yes, religious fundamentalist do not necessarily reflect popular opinion. But the same is just not true in Islamic countries. Muslims, as a whole, feel oppressed by the West and readily flock to leaders who promise "something better." The Islamic World, unlike Europe and to some extent the US, has just not reached the stage of political development at which religion ceases to be a MAJOR issue. Religious identity is, together with gender identity, the most important personality factor in most predominatly Muslim countries for the majority of the population. This means that fundamentalist leaders have an easier time at radicalizing the population.</p>
<p>Since you use the example of Egypt, I'll use it too. Are you aware that fundamentalist representation in parliamentary politics is increasing there due to popular consent just as it is in Palestine? This is evidence that, just like the German masses in 1933, the Egyptians masses are gradually being convinced that new and considerably more fundamentalist leadership is needed. (<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/02/AR2006020202368.html?nav=rss_world%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/02/AR2006020202368.html?nav=rss_world</a>)</p>
<p>As a sidenote, since you seem to think that I'm just some idiot talking out of my ass, I'll have you know that I am quite well acquainted with Muslim fundamentalism, having studied in North Africa and now seriously considering pursuing the issue in graduate school, to which I'll soon be going.</p>
<p>Wow. Just wow. </p>
<p>Anybody think this one's a troll?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of course the majority of Muslims are fundamentalist. There are over one billion of them and they live in areas which naturally foster fundamentalism.
[/quote]
You are ridiculous. I will not even waste my time responding except to say that fundamentalism is gradually becoming more predominant in ALL countries, especially with young people because they want to see a change. Jean-Marie Le Pen got a substantial amount of votes in France during the last election and he is considered fundamentalist. Reason doesn't work on people so ignorant. I hope you pursue this in graduate school and learn a little something about reality--and I also hope you learn about ignorance and what it can do to people and you apply it to yourself. You cannot start reasoning by knowing what you desire to see out of a certain situation and the deduce from there--the flaws in your logic all come from this personal flaw of yours.</p>
<p>Oh please, your wannabe rebuttal makes no sense whatsoever. </p>
<p>First you say: </p>
<p>Let me repeat: the vast majority of muslims are NOT fundamentalist.</p>
<p>Then you say: </p>
<p>fundamentalism is gradually becoming more predominant in ALL countries</p>
<p>The last time I checked, the vast majority of Muslims live in countries. Thus, your second statement confirms my viewpoint that Muslim fundamentalism is on the rise. </p>
<p>Whoever you are, you seriously need to stop behaving like a child. I don't agree with what your saying, but that doesn't mean that I resort to cheap tactics like saying you have a pre-conceived bias. </p>
<p>Of course I have a bias, so does everyone. However, unlike yours, my bias in readily observable by anyone who reads Arab newspapers, keeps up Middle Eastern domestic policy, or has a basic understanding of historic Muslim attitudes towars the West. You also claim that I somehow "wanted" to find what I have "found" among Muslim populations. That is total rubbish. My viewpoint has been arrived at through years of study leading to published articles on Muslim populations in serious academic journals. Muslims, as a whole, just don't like the West. It's not a joke, it's a threat.</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, unlike yours, my bias in readily observable by anyone who reads Arab newspapers, keeps up Middle Eastern domestic policy, or has a basic understanding of historic Muslim attitudes towars the West.
[/quote]
And this makes you better how? And this makes your viewpoint more valid how? I actually consider you worse for this--for believing everything you hear. You actually think that news acurately reflets anything about a given population's mentality? I am American, but I think Fox News is pure crap and I don't agree with the way they present information. And it's not a "cheap tactic," it's something I clearly see everyday in the US. Muslims are under a microscope--anytime one of them does anything wrong, the US media makes a huge deal about it (it's worse than for any other group at the moment).
[quote]
Muslims, as a whole, just don't like the West. It's not a joke, it's a threat.
[/quote]
My experience begs to differ. Every SINGLE person I have ever met in the Middle East or who was Muslims loves the US. </p>
<p>
[quote]
First you say: </p>
<p>Let me repeat: the vast majority of muslims are NOT fundamentalist.</p>
<p>Then you say: </p>
<p>fundamentalism is gradually becoming more predominant in ALL countries</p>
<p>The last time I checked, the vast majority of Muslims live in countries. Thus, your second statement confirms my viewpoint that Muslim fundamentalism is on the rise.
[/quote]
Your logic is, once again severely flawed. And for so many reasons:
1) Saying that something is gradually gaining popularity within a certain population does not contradict with the idea that a majority of said population does not partake in that something. The two are not incompatible and your deduction is completely absurd.
2) My point was also that although fundamentalist ideology may seem more predominant in Muslim countries, you must know that fundamentalism, and yes to the same extent, exists everywhere. You must know that the media, and particularly the US media, greatly emphasizes Islamic fundamentalism over any other and takes a huge role in spreading ridiculous ideas and assumptions (like the ones you have) throughout the population.
3) Assuming that your deduction of what I have said is true (and it's just not--I hope you're not majoring in logic), then why are you focusing on Islamic fundamentalism? Have you not been a little brainwashed by the US media? Have you forgotten that stopping fundamentalism elsewhere is just as important? I seriously want an answer.
4) Would you say that the following is true: "Everything that is rare is expensive. A one-legged horse is rare. Therefore, a one-legged horse is expensive."? Please, think before you make assumptions.</p>
<p>Lastly, I want to say the following, knowing that none of it will sink in: Do you not see that the attitude people have towards Muslims now is like the attitude that people had toward Jews leading up to and during the Holocaust? You and people who think like are you are dangerous. Unfortunetly, there are so many more ignorant people like you than there are enlightened people. You have already contributed to something horrible--to the spreading of an unjust and unreal assumption that Muslims all have fundamentalist views. If something tragic such as a genocide occurs, you will have no one to blame but yourself.</p>
<p>greatestyen, I would truly love to know which "newspapers" from the Middle East you have been reading. Even if you have been reading various journals from the Middle East (which I seriously doubt), you have no idea WHO exactly funds and writes the articles. For instance, did you know that in Iran, many popular, privately owned newspapers were closed by the government and those that represent the skewed view of the oppressive regime replaced them? So even if you have been reading papers and journals from the Middle East, let me tell you that your source of information is so biased that using them as part of your argument that all Muslims are fundamentalists is just ridiculous.</p>
<p>I would also like to say that as an individual who lived in a Middle Eastern country for twelve years, I absolutely disagree with what you are stating. The Islamic people as a whole DO NOT hate the West. You studied in North Africa, heck, I think actually living in a country would enlighten one about the truth more effectively. I sincerely hope you do some more research on this subject before making such outrageous claims.</p>
<p>To be perfectly honest, yes. I do think Fox News reflects the average American viewpoint. You, as an "enlightened" American, must realize that though you may not like it, tens of millions of your adult AND COLLEGE EDUCATED population cannot follow simple directions or read a map. (Google it.) Americans, as a whole, are not like you. They buy what they hear, simple as that. The same bloody thing goes for Muslims. If you honestly doubt my capacity to understand from news sources, statistical data, and my own field research, then there's nothing I can do. </p>
<p>How many people have you met? In my travels to the Middle East, I have never met a single person who thought that America was a "good" country. Most say they favor Russia. </p>
<ol>
<li>I think the real issue here is that while fundamentalism is in fact increasing in MOST places (not all...definetely) it is increasing fastER in Muslim nations because they are the backwaters of the world and have been for about 300 years now. The trend has strenghened since WWII, reached a critical point, and will soon explode. </li>
<li>It is simply not a lie. The majority of Muslims despise Europe and the United States. Not only did the West control their histories for hundreds of years, but it invaded, imposed foreign born democracy, raped their women and childen, poked fun at their Prophet, opposed nuclear energy for "civilan purposes," etc. Pre-modern societies can only cope with so much before they explode. </li>
<li>Uh. What can I say. Brainwashed by the US media? I've always hated that phrase. It makes the media look so...singularized. The fact is I listen/read media from all around the world and I know just how biased the media can be. But that does not change the fact that most of the time they, the media, do in fact reflect their respective populations. (Example...WWI/WWII media...ignored defeats, glorified triumps-however small they might be.) The obvious counterexample would be China...but they're a peripheral concern to this argument. Why am I studying Muslim fundamentalism, you ask? Why are you on this board, I ask? I don't know. It's just what I do. </li>
<li>Won't bother. </li>
</ol>
<p>Very passionate I must say. Agree, I do not. What Westerncentrics like you fail to grasp is, once again, the vast majority of the Muslim population of the world HATES Europe + the US for supporting the terrorist state of Israel and all those other things thing I mentioned. </p>
<p>You also make it sound like I'm some sort of anti-Muslim hater. The reality is that I am a fierce multicultural advocate; but the harsh reality is that many people, Muslims in Muslim nations particular, do not like the West in any way, shape, or form and would never actually WANT to live in a multicultural society. Since you accuse me of Nazism, I accuse you of Munichism. The next genocide, I am sure, will once again be against Israel, and it will be partly YOUR fault for rejecting MY understanding of Muslim sentiments, whose hatred for the Jews is equally strong, if not stronger than Hitler's.</p>
<p>I don't think muslims hate jews, they hate that jews took over palestine etc.. etc...</p>
<p>The way you present it sounds unfair. Jews "took over" Judea, commonly called Israel. Strange, those words, "Jew" and "Judea." They sound connected, perhaps because they are. Also, what about the history of the "Palistinean" people? Why were they kicked out of various other muslim countries? Also, how many Muslim countries exist in the world? How many Jewish countries?</p>
<p>I need to send you a PM</p>
<p>well you know what i mean... from the muslims perspective the jews took over their land... they had been living there for hella long so they felt it was their land now... I know technically the jews came there first but that was hella long ago, the palestinians were living in palestine for like hundreds of years
just like americans live on america we weren't always here but we've lived here so long we assume that its pretty much our land... now if the native americans somehow came back to life and wanted it back then we'd probably be ****ed</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's obvious that Muslims, as a whole, can't handle sarcasm. It's a totally alien concept for them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree that greatestyen is an idiot and a troll. I hope he doesnt join politics, because he would be a joke on a bigger scale then.</p>
<p>SalikSyed, I completely agree. The same could be said of young Mexican-American college students who incite violence and get their less educated peers excited about "la Raza" and the need to fight the "estupid gringos" who stole "La Tierra de la Raza."</p>
<p>JamesN, no, I am not a "troll." I am not out to make you mad for the sake of it, I'm out to use whatever free time I have to utilize a public internet forum and talk about a public issue that interests me. Nobody is making you come back to this thread whenever I post a new response. Everyone who knows what it is about is perfectly free to let it die and hope nobody resurrects it. </p>
<p>I'm sorry I offended you, bashir7. In the PM you sent me, you claim that I hate Muslims. Well that's just not it. I have great Muslims friends and they too agree with me that Muslims, as a whole, hate the West. You of course are very open and rational (and Westernized,) but you still fail to understand that you (like my Muslim friends) are a member of the intellectual elite which tends to be very progressive, regardless of religion. The same cannot be said of the masses. For example, most of us on this forum, being "liberal" and "intellectual," I would guess are not opposed to gay marriage. But yet we KNOW that most Americans are. The same is true of Muslim populations. The old parliamentary elites that are currently being outsted might be symphatetic to the West, but it simply is not true of the general population which has now taken a more active interest in fundamenalist politics and radicalizing youth. </p>
<p>You also claimed that I have been brainwashed by FoxNews. Well, I have no way to prove it. But let me assure you that I almost never watch FoxNews. (I don't have a T.V.) So stop assuming everything about me. You are free to take down what I say with counterfacts with links attached to them but it's just unproductive for you to go on and on about how I'm clearly "biased" and "wrong" just because your experience says so. </p>
<p>I mean, snap out of it people. You have all been brainwashed by the multicultural propaganda I help to create. Multiculturalism is nice and good but you miss the fact that it is a post-Hitler Western creation chiefly accepted by Western intellectual audiences. It's as alien a concept to the Muslim population, on a whole, as gay marriage and polygamy are to the American population, on a whole.</p>