State U's recruiting Intl Students who get free rides

Parents Forum
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<p>This is a practice which we have noticed is happening with greater frequency in non-revenue sports among state colleges and universities. International athletes come to US universities and get the full-ride scholarships, while American students, even in-state, are permitted to "try out" for sports but have very VERY little chance of scholarship money.</p>

<p>This has been particularly true in fencing. Penn State, OSU, Notre Dame, all the big schools with elite teams have numerous foreign students attending on huge athletic grants, while US students in this fast growing sport are shuffled off to smaller Div 3 schools, or are denied access to scholarships at Flagship Us.</p>

<p>This drives us crazy! Notre Dame is not a state funded institution but PSU and OSU are, and while I am thrilled they have elite programs, I would prefer they brought in US kids on their scholarship programs, and let the program suffer a bit.</p>

<p>Thank you for the vent.</p>

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<p>I've seen the same in squash.</p>

<p>** edit ** sorry, I misread. I've seen the same in squash -- but in private schools. OTOH, not that many publics have squash teams west of the hudson so it's a bit of a moot point. But are there really that many state u's with competitive FENCING teams?</p>

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<p>State universities who want a winning team recruit and offer scholarships wherever they can. Thanks for bringing this up--I have a local friend whose son is looking for fencing teams for his college years.</p>

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<p>also true in D1 sports such as soccer and basketball and, and, and. But, how is that any different that offering an athletic scholarship to a kid from out-of-state? I assume JoePa has plenty of kids from neighboring states.</p>

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<p>In fencing, PSU currently has 26 men on their team of which four are international. On the women's side, there are 22 members with two being international. According to the NCAA, there od a maximum of 4.5 scholarships for men's fencing and 5 for women's. That being said, there is very little money for fencing, in general. This is true for most Olympic sports where a nominal number of scholarships have to be divided up between all team members. Unless an athlete is ranked at the national level, the amount of scholarship money is minimal. Even if an althlete is ranked at the national level, the scholarship money is usually modest.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I would prefer they brought in US kids on their scholarship programs, and let the program suffer a bit.

[/quote]

Given that PSU is a state school, supported by its residents' taxes, would it be reasonable for a PA resident to prefer they brought in only PA kids on their scholarship programs, and let the program suffer?</p>

<p>cross-posted with BB</p>

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<p>My friends' kid is a competitive swimmer. They'd love the kid to get a free ride at UW when the time comes, however, they know that UW does not have a good pool (it was built in the 40-ies, I believe), their swimming program has been on the chopping block a few times, and there have been multiple significant changes in the coaching staff over the past years. Why would a superstar swimmer sign up with a team that does not have good facilities and coaching staff? In Pac-10, any CA team can offer much more, and Auburn is always on the lookout for potential Olympians! There was an article in the local paper about UW swimcoach salivating about local recruits, but they all went elswehere. Guess what, he had to settle for some international ones. That was some years ago. UW still has the same crappy pool. Out of sheer curiosity, I checked UW swim roster today - they have kids from Chroatia and Israel on their team!</p>

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<p>fencersmother: Maybe the international kids are better fencers? I see no issue with awarding a scholarship that is based on athletic prowess to the better athlete.</p>

<p>katliamom: Absolutely. The thing is, though, in squash, only 2 schools are currently really offering lots of scholarships - Trinity and Rochester. And they get mostly internationals with these scholarships because a) internationals are far more likely to go somewhere with a full ride than with just need-based aid (and the Ivies, the other traditional squash powerhouses, obviously only have need-based) and b) because the top domestic players generally prefer to go to the top Ivies with squash programs (HYP are the traditional choices, as well as Penn and increasingly Cornell - though Cornell is increasingly forging its own recruiting relationship with the squash association in my home province in Canada).</p>

<p>I'm a Princeton squash player, and can tell you that the phenomenon of international students going to Trinity on scholarship is not a new one; it has been this way for a long time, and probably always will.</p>

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<p>At OSU, of the 40 fencers on the roster only 5 are foreign students and all have been named to the All-American teams. In addition less than half the team members are from Ohio. So exactly what is the problem?</p>

<p>If any hs student wants to compete on the elite level, he/she must devote years of practice and competition to reach that top level in the sport and be recruited by the top colleges in that sport. And while most hs's do not have elite coaching, all the best fencers train with clubs which do. The hs team is almost like a fencing ec, a place to dabble in the sport.</p>

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<p>My daughters college has fencing competitions and scholarships- for students with need-
For example they have a tournament every year and the top 3 finishers split $10,000 ( that qualify for aid)</p>

<p>The</a> Search for College Fencing Scholarships</p>

<p>Bunsen- my daughters swim team won state this year- even though she didn't make it to state except as part of the team- think she could milk that in some way ? <jk> ;)</jk></p>

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<p>Having been involved in swimming for many long years, a good majority of parents believe that their child can get a 'full ride' to college. The truth is, just like all Olympic sports, there are limited amount of scholarships available for the most competitive athletes.</p>

<p>For swimming, there are a maximum of 9.9 scholarships available for men and 14 scholarships available for women at the Division 1 level. According to the NCAA website there are 136 Division 1 schools that offer men’s swimming and 192 that offer women’s swimming. </p>

<p>At Division 2 schools, there are a maximum of 8.1 scholarships for men and 8.1 for women with 57 schools offering men’s swimming and 73 offering women’s swimming.</p>

<p>Division 3 schools do not offer any scholarships.</p>

<p>Many schools do not even have the max. to offer. The Ivies as well as some other Division 1 and 2 programs have none. So the scholarships they do have (if they have any at all) are usually divided up amongst the swim team members and dive team members (all of whom would love to have a full ride). So on average, men might get about 30% and women around 50% based on a team size of thirty members (thirty men and thirty women.) </p>

<p>According to one recruiting site (I don’t think I can post the link to the site and I believe the data is a couple of years old), there are about 104,000 male high school swimmers and about 148,000 female high school swimmers. In the NCAA there are about 7400 male college swimmers and about 10,500 female college swimmers (includes all divisions?). These numbers indicate about 7 to 8 percent of high school swimmers compete in college.</p>

<p>There are individuals who do get full rides, but they are not very common. Those who do receive free rides, generally have Olympic Trials Qualifying times going into recruitment (which begins in July prior to senior year.) This is particularly true for men, where it is difficult to achieve Olympic Trial qualifying times while still in high school. At major programs, even Olympic Trial qualifiers may not get that 'full ride' because most of the team falls into that category.</p>

<p>So, you can see that it is very difficult to get that ‘full ride’. I am not saying that it is not possible for even less than elite swimmers, just very difficult. </p>

<p>As a sideline, athletic scholarships are offered on a year to year basis. This means a relatively good scholarship offer may disappear after the first year. So even that ‘full ride’ might only be a ‘full ride’ for the first year.</p>

<p>I refer to 'full ride' rather than 'free ride' because any athletic scholarship an athlete gets, he/she is working for it with a lot of hours of practice and dedication.</p>

<p>I am sorry if I have gotten too off topic.</p>

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<p>drb has it. I don't care if internationals fence and win at PSU or anywhere else. I just want my kid to get the scholarship monies.</p>

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<p>Oh I wasn't looking for a swimming scholarship for D, although if she had won her event at state, I expect that would have been enough to get her a grant based package from a school that met 100% of need, rather than mostly loans and work study.</p>

<p>Even if a school doesn't give athletic scholarships per se, it still can give a student a significant tip to admission, as with the many Ivies who recruit students from my Ds high school. Even if they don't qualify for need based aid, an admission tip is always helpful, and if they do qualify for need based aid, its nice to get your package weighted with grants.
( the nice thing is- even if you don't have need- if you get an admission tip from your sport- and attend the Ivy, they aren't going to kick you out because of injury- although if you get injured at your state school and can't compete, they might not give you your free ride)</p>

<p>Personally, if I had a top athlete who was going to college, I would be more concerned about the quality of education rather than playing time.
I see top athletes from Ds school, who otherwise couldn't even go to college, attending lesser known out of state universities, because they are getting a free ride.
However, in sports like basketball and football, where a college injury can really not only wreck your studies, but your chance for post college play, Id rather see them go to as strong of an academic school as they can, rather than go for the free ride.</p>

<p>There isn't as much risk for injury in swimming ( except diving) and fencing, and I realize I am getting a little off topic here- but it is really frustrating to see kids that were best in the state in their sport- but their sport was the main reason why they even made it through high school, let alone got into college, because college wasn't really a value for their parents, and they didn't have a lot of support for academics outside of their teammates and coach ( and teachers) in high school.</p>

<p>I think it is great they are getting scholarships to attend- but I also worry about these schools who aren't really concerned about their athletes graduating, they just are looking to boost their sports teams to attract more alumni donations</p>

<p>Im not familiar with the situation at the state schools but if the scholarships are funded through alumni donations, they may be more interested in a winning team rather than sponsoring local kids.</p>

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<p>There is a lot of negative feeling on CC towards internationals. Another group taking another space from other kids.</p>

<p>That said, State schools probably should give preference to in state kids if they are close in skill.</p>

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<p>Most schools are seeking diversity in their student population - and many state schools do limit the OOS applicants to a certain % of total - which does give in-state students priority.</p>

<p>International students add to the diversity of the student population - and to the athletic population as well. Because of limited scholarhsips by D1 schools for each sport - they are rarely given to just 1 student/athlete - but spread across the masses in that sport - including the international student/athletes - and rarely will an international get a 'free ride' from the athletic department - so some of the $$ may come from grants/scholarships/merit etc..... or if the sport is a money making one - sometimes booster clubs fill in some gaps - usually football.</p>

<p>Unless an athlete is a top recruit/elite - there is little a coach can really do to butter the toast for admissions - some coaches have clout and some don't have any. Lower rung athletes may get a boost from a coach - but that is usually reserved for the top recruits.</p>

<p>Schools are going to try to pull in the best athletes that they can - and know they are competing with many schools for the same pool of applicants - so there has to be some incentive.</p>

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<p>top women crew teams are recruiting heavily internationally. also, in my day, the basketball and track teams recruited heavily outside the US. </p>

<p>Sports have always been a merit driven enterprise (that is, once African-Americans were allowed to be on teams).</p>

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<p>How about facing reality?</p>

<p>If your kid can't perform up to expectations, then too bad. Life isn't fair. Do you expect colleges to sacrifice talent and winning? Are you kidding me? </p>

<p>Yes, they are public institutions with a duty to serve students of their own state/country, but if you look at statistics, first of all, there are very few internationals with scholarships. These institutions have a right to spend money on what they believe is fair and just, and giving only a few scholarships out is unfair? </p>

<p>I'm sorry, but it's called competition. It's also called affording others a college education because they deserve it due to athletic merit. Also not to mention giving intl's a start to a better life... But I sense some negativity towards intls so I won't even go there.</p>

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<p>Hate to say it, but I agree with ibtelling. I find this whole conversation a bit self-minded, fencersmother. If you didn't have kids who fence and who may get left out of the scholarship money, you wouldn't care. Sorry, but if your kids are better than the internationals, they will get the scholarships. Since when has college sports been some kind of welfare program for American athletes? If the college wants them on the team badly enough, it will give them a scholarship. If not, tough luck. US national sporting organizations and the government are the ones whose subsidies should support athletes.</p>

<p>And by the way, while I recognize the argument about public state schools possibly having a higher priority to support Americans, you should remember that at many of the type of schools you've mentioned, smaller sports and their scholarships are partly supported by the revenue sports. And that is not based on taxpayer revenue, so even then you really don't have a leg to stand on.</p>

<p>I think I'll take my leave of this blatant "my kid has it so unfair" thread.</p>