Sticker Shock

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Our high school soph daughter has been advised to begin the process of looking at colleges by her school guidance counselor. A check with her private teacher yielded names like Rice, Oberlin, NEC, Peabody, etc.</p>

<p>The problem is its been a long time since I looked at college programs and the cost of 30-40K per year shocked me. Not likely we could afford upwards of 150K for a 4 year program and some of the dual major possibilities would be 5 years, nearing 200K.</p>

<p>My question is should I just dismiss these schools and ask her teacher for cheaper alternatives or is it realistic to expect significant grants, scholarships etc that would make the cost if not affordable, at least put us into realistic debt, not cost us our home.</p>

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<p>I would not necessarily dismiss these, but also ask for financial safeties as well. She may fall in love with one of the less expensive schools and then it is a win-win!</p>

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<p>Many of these schools will meet financial need, but you need to do a FAFSA calculation to see what that will mean for your situation. Many also provide merit based on the admissions audition. Merit money can be very significant for the best musicians. "Cheaper" alternatives usually means State schools, as conservatories are often less expensive than private LAC's.</p>

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<p>I agree with the others. It is possible to get good-sized grants, making those schools affordable. I have heard that Rice is particularly good in that area. However, it would also be good to have some less expensive schools in mind. Find out if there is a school in your state with a good music program, or some other less expensive school that may give good grants to out of state students. At this point, it is best to keep all options open, but be sure your daughter knows that cost will be a factor, so she doesn't get her heart set on a school that ends up to be unaffordable.</p>

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<p>Welcome to CC, FluteMomLiz.</p>

<p>Edad had very good advice about the FAFSA calculations but I will warn you that most people are very surprised at how high their EFC turns out to be.</p>

<p>Merit aid at conservatories is generally used in two ways. First, to attract instruments for which there is a shortage at the school and second, to increase their odds of getting a top prospect to attend. As I'm sure you know by now, the flute world is very competitive. The top schools never need another flute, rather they get twenty or more applicants for every spot they have. Getting into one of the schools you mentioned on flute is going to be very hard. Significant merit scholarship money will likely be reserved for a relative handful of the very best from around the world.</p>

<p>Of the schools you mention, Rice is about $7K or $8K less per year than the others. Unfortunately, they only take one or two undergrad flutes per year. The teacher there is Leone Buyse, who is very well known in the flute world, so the competition is fierce. They also require very strong academic credentials, which could either help or hurt your daughter's chances.</p>

<p>Oberlin offers merit aid to about a third of the entering class, usually in the amount of $8K to $12K. They have Michel Debost and Kathleen Chastain on faculty, and are among the hardest admits anywhere for a flute student.</p>

<p>NEC has Paula Robison, Jeanne Baxtresser, and five other flute teachers including most of the BSO flute section so they take a fair number of flute students each year. They are infamous for the tiny amount of merit-based aid that they offer. You also have to be careful on the issue of having enough large ensembles to support the number of flutes they take.</p>

<p>Peabody's flute teachers do not have quite the same international soloist name recognition factor as the others, but are still quite good. The odds of getting in there may be a little better than the others, but they are not exactly known as a school where the merit scholarship money flows freely.</p>

<p>Realize that some flute teachers know what they are talking about when they direct students to the top schools and some have no clue about the playing level required for admission these days. You might want to ask that teacher whether any of their recent students have been admitted to the schools you mention. Also, have a look at the suggested audition repertoire at the schools and ask her current teacher whether your daughter will be able to play that level of material to very high standards in a bit under two years.</p>

<p>Unless your daughter is among the best of the best, I would suggest looking for both financial safeties and for musical safeties. If she is truly in the elite class, have a look at Curtis Institute in Philadelphia (free tuition for all students but expect to pay $15K or so per year for living expenses in Philadelphia). On average, they take only one new flute student a year. Some years they take none at all when no flute student graduated the previous year.</p>

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<p>BassDad, great post. I agree with all of his advice and his opinions on schools for the flute. I have heard that Eastman is also a top school for the flute and one of the flute teachers at Michigan won a grammy this year.</p>

<p>One thing that I think that anyone who is even thinking of majoring in flute performance is to attend (audition) for a top summer music program. One reason is to assess the talent. Another is to find contacts. The flute world is very small. I hear the facility at Interlochen is very good. Ohio State has a dedicated flute camp.</p>

<p>If you have a student interested in flute performance I suggest that they join the National Flute Association <a href="http://www.nfaonline.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.nfaonline.org&lt;/a> Your student will receive mailings of flute festivals and camps that she might be interested in attending. </p>

<p>If she is interested in flute performance she might also try to audition for masterclasses that are held at flute festivals around the country. My D attended one and they did have a masterclass for HS students. She might also consider auditioning for flute contests. I really don't know a lot about flute contests but I do know that at the National Flute Association they have a young flutest contest.</p>

<p>OT, BassDad, I didn't know that about Curtis. My D is trying to change teachers and the person that we are contacting went to Curtis. I'm even more impressed.</p>

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<p>I would suspect our OP has had a second shock. All of us music parents have been through it. First we learn about costs, while we are wondering about future employment for our young musicians. Then we learn about the extreme competition for admission at conservatories and top music schools.</p>

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<p>I saw this on the Eastman web site, and since you're talking about flutes, thought I'd post it here:</p>

<p>The View from the Top: A Piccolo Workshop Weekend
July 29-30/Saturday, 1–4 p.m. and 6–9 p.m., Sunday, 10 a.m.–1 p.m.
Jan Angus, director
Every flutist needs to be able to play the piccolo and be familiar with its intricacies. Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra piccoloist Jan Angus will share her 20 years of experience on topics of breathing, air speed and support, embouchure, intonation, and alternate fingerings. Concepts will be related to NYSSMA piccolo repertory, as well as newly published works and standard orchestral piccolo solos. The sessions are performance-oriented, with all students participating in warm-up routines and vocalises, and general repertory and orchestral piccolo duets. The workshop will include a short piccolo recital by Jan Angus. Students are required to have some piccolo experience and bring their own instrument. Students will be invited to play in a studio class.
Tuition:
$150/$210 with housing and meals
$100/$160 with housing and meals for students also participating in Music Horizons
Additional Information:
Arrive (dorm): Saturday morning, July 29
Depart (dorm): Sunday afternoon, July 30</p>

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<p>Competition at all top music programs is stiff. But this is the way of a performance major's life so it's good to start early. When DS applied to music performance programs, we too were stunned at the sticker costs. He received really decent merit aid at all but 2 of the schools to which he applied. He is attending BU with a generous performance award. NEC didn't give him a dime. Peabody gave him $4000 per year (which we found out later was a generous award for their undergrad performance majors). Hartt and Duquesne were even more generous than BU, but he really wanted to be in Boston. We heard that NEC doesn't give much in aid to anyone except very top players who they really want to entice to attend. Their flute competition is very intense. At some conservatories, there is a preliminary flute screening (sometimes by CD) to determine who will be given auditions. This also happens with sopranos.</p>

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<p>Eastman gives merit aid to every admitted student and already has tuition that is a bit lower than the other programs at Rochester. I don't know what level of merit aid is offered. My son was also able to qualify for National Merit since Eastman is part of UR.</p>

<p>As an aside, the only flute player admitted to Curtis this year plays in our local youth orchestra :) We also had a violist admitted as well.</p>

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<p>Hi, I'm new. My son is a sophomore trumpet player who is really good. He's working hard at school and at music...sometimes I feel his chances at a great program would improve if he practiced more, but so far he's managing. Can anyone tell me about auditions at the colleges vs music schools? Are any parents out there as petrified as I am by the odds of making it in music?</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the great information.</p>

<p>To answer a few points. Teacher is Conservatory grad with several students at top schools. Should have some idea of what it takes and has discussed the professors at those programs with us. Already a member of NFA. She has won several audtions and gotten top grades at competitions for doing college audition level material from college professors, a couple Conservatory professors, and several conservatory grads now working professionally. She has done the all district, all state honors bands and Solo competitions, youth orchestra principal and attended quality summer programs.</p>

<p>My topic was on the financial aspect because we have a decent handle on the difficulties of the audition and her playing level. We have no illusions that getting into any of those schools is likely, just possible.</p>

<p>Curtis was not included because that one or two spots are almost impossible and usually goes to an international student. Manhattan and Julliard we dismissed early.</p>

<p>Our question was if we can not afford the 40K should we just eliminate those schools now and start looking at less expensive alternatives. </p>

<p>I especially thank those that spoke to the merit and needs funding available at various schools. It gives some hope that we can leave some on the long shot list. Now we need to start adding the more affordable yet still high quality programs for both failure to get funding and failure of audition possibilities.</p>

<p>But the possibility of getting the yes letter but no funds and having to turn down XYZ conservatory because of money is a concern.</p>

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<p>Music performance is a very challenging degree program. It takes a ton of discipline and commitment. Yes, we worry about DS "making it" in the professional music world, and so does he. But the reality is that his music degree will bode him well in grad schools even for non-music programs. This is his passion and we encouraged it for his undergrad studies. I would urge you to read these articles published by Peabody...they really are excellent.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/787%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/787&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Actually, not all the music schools will meet financial need... For example, from NEC I got $8000 in scholarship plus federal grants, loans, etc. to a total of about $22000, which is FAR from what I need. My EFC from FAFSA is $0. There is simply no way that I can afford that $45000-22000 difference. </p>

<p>So even if your EFC is low, the conservatories, especially those with limited fund (seems like NEC is one of them, and I believe Peabody also do not have much money to give out), won't really meet your financial need if EFC is too low.</p>

<p>The whole financing part for music schools is sad - I think Harvard is now tuition-free for family income under $60,000 - and the music schools just do not have that much alumni contribution....</p>

<p>(A side note: I'm shocked as I look back: if I did not apply to double degree programs, I may not afford to go to any of the music schools b/c of the small scholarships and poor financial aid.
I guess one way to work around the poor funding conservatories is to apply to double degree programs (of course it does not apply to everyone) since the academic colleges/universities have much better funding and usually offer much more generous scholarships)</p>

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<p>Thank you, Thumper1...it's good to hear other parents' opinions on all of this. I appreciated the article very much! We just know many professional trumpet players, even those in major symphonies, whose lives are just not at all easy...even if they are flawless, the conductor may decide he's looking for a different sound and not renew a contract. Even if they have tenure, one bad night may get them invited to a lower chair. The salary isn't great...and I think the kids don't realize that after fifteen years, Mahler's 5th is just less exciting (it may sound like heresy...but it's true...particularly with kids to support). And that's if one has the luck (it's really luck...many have the talent) to get an orchestra chair...the rest also have a tough time...recording gigs are going out of the country and teaching jobs are just as scarce as symphony jobs. Most of the professional musicians we know would not have done it again because being an engineer or MBA provides a much more comfortable living (and one can play music in a local symphony). So, as passionate as my son is, and as much as I want to support him...I find myself reciting the mantra "double major..."</p>

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<p>FluteMomLiz,</p>

<p>Glad to hear that you and your daughter know what you are in for. I have run into the occasional parent who thinks that Juilliard or Curtis is a match because their kid's high school band director (who plays tuba) said so. In your daughter's case, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Curtis. Half of the kids who get in are from this country. The one or two flute spots are indeed almost impossible to get, but someone is going to get them and the process of putting together the Curtis audition makes everything else seem like a breeze. I understand how the cost of a trip to Philadelphia and the combined nearly $300 in application and audition fees might be a concern, but it is the chance of a lifetime.</p>

<p>I would highly recommend having your daughter audition at Oberlin for their non-binding Early Review. If she is already doing a good job on college level audition pieces, she might be accepted there as early as mid-December of her senior year. That would take a lot of pressure off at later auditions and give her first crack at what merit money might be available at Oberlin. Debost is said to be one of the best teachers in the business.</p>

<p>Other possibilities you may wish to consider are
Carol Wincenc at SUNY Stony Brook (a real bargain at $20K per year out of state or $14K in state for tuition, room and board),
Mary Karen Clardy at University of North Texas (another amazing bargain at about $15K per year total out of state and $10K total in state),
Donald Peck at Roosevelt U. in Chicago ($30K per year),
Bart Feller at Rutgers ($26K out of state, $18K in state),
any of the faculty at Temple ($26K out of state, $18K in state),
William Montgomery at Maryland ($32K out of state, $20K in state and a beautiful new performing arts center),
Chris Krueger at UMass ($25K out of state, $16K in state),
Felix Skowronek at University of Washington ($31K out of state, $17K in state)</p>

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<p>FluteMomLiz - speaking as a parent of a Juilliard student, I'm curious why you crossed Juilliard and Manhattan off your list early. Don't like the teacher there? (I don't know anything about the flute program. I do know they took only one flute the year my son - horn student - auditioned.) If it is a money concern, my S receives a scholarship about equal to tuition, making it even with Curtis - except that Juilliard has housing! And the scholarship exceeds our EFC.</p>

<p>Your D sounds very much like my S - with the level of teaching, achievement, competitions, etc. Feel free to PM me if I can be of any help, or if you just want to bounce ideas.</p>

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<p>unless she's outstanding she wont get much in grant from those schools- they are clearly top 10 music schools in the country. try community college then transfer her junior year. you'll save almost half.</p>

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<p>My D has chosen the double degree route for many of the reasons discussed. She is very worried about trying to make a career in music performance and has no interest in teaching. She has a cousin who got a degree in performance, went on for additional graduate training and finally realized that she just did not have the ability to succeed. She is now a physician. </p>

<p>The double degree option is not necessarily a wise choice. Sometimes I see the double degree as a way of buying time before making a commitment. To succeed in music requires a serious commitment. It is all but impossible to maintain that commitment while also pursuing academics. For her program and others we researched only a very limited number of students are approved for DD and only about 1/3 of them actually obtain both degrees. Both the music and academic faculty are likely to question the commitment of these students.</p>

<p>To succeed in music it is necessary to achieve performance skills consistent with those of the top conservatories. A very high percentage of successful classical musicians complete UG training and continue on for graduate training at a conservatory. There may be quite a few options were a DD is relatively easy but few of those will make is easy to continue with graduate training at a top conservatory.</p>

<p>It is difficult enough to audition and gain admission into strong music programs. Trying to also compete for strong academic programs is twice as difficult and stressful. The options become limited. </p>

<p>Don't count on great financial aid. Conservatory tuition is often less than the corresponding academic tuition. Examples are Eastman/UR and Peabody/JHU. A DD means paying the higher tuition and future concerns about financial aid for the 2/3rds of students who opt out. A DD frequently means 5 years. I am not sure if there will be any aid for the 5th year. To complete her DD, my D needs to average well over 20 credits/semester for all 5 years. Before attempting a DD, check the school's policy about costs for extra credits. At some schools like Oberlin the extra costs can be many thousands/year. My D will complete freshman year this May with about 45 credits, not counting workstudy, workshops and some performance groups with no credits. She has concluded that she needs to take some lessons over the summer and also plans on taking 16 credits at State U so that she can meet some elective requirements and reduce the stress during the school year. She feels like she is falling behind. Her boyfriend completed 68 credits freshman year. We had expected her to get a job and help with the costs. She is planning on a part time job. I can guess how that will work out.</p>

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<p>home schooling? distance learning? boston u offers phd in music entirely online.</p>