<p>That is, if someone gets 700 in every section. Usually kids get more than 700 in a section or two, leaving other sections coming up short if the sum is 2100. Of course that can happen with 2200 too but less likely.</p>
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Thank God. I hope I can trust you, but I doubt it.</p>
<p>Exptrapolating from “over 700 in each section” to “a threshold of 2200” is truly bizarre. </p>
<p>Niot to mention that the most recent Harvard CDS shows that 25% of the admitted classes have scores below 700 on various sections. Again, I didn’t attend Harvard (narrowing it down for you CR), but I’m assuming if you get a score below 700 on any section that you didn’t get over 700 on each section. At least that’s how I remember logic.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_CDS2008_2009_Harvard_for_Web_Clean.pdf[/url]”>http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_CDS2008_2009_Harvard_for_Web_Clean.pdf</a></p>
<p>I guess they must have forgotten the “threshold” on those days.</p>
<p>Saying there’s no difference between a 2200 and a 2300 is not the same as saying there is an absolute threshold at 2200, or any number.</p>
<p>I am STILL waiting to see the magic 2200 quoted ANYWHERE.</p>
<p>Oh sorry. Are we doing THIS now.</p>
<p>@bovertine, #420–oh, now I believe WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.</p>
<p>Added a minute later: Ooops, with the latest posts, I see I am badly behind the times.</p>
<p>Just to throw out another whacko speculation, I wonder about the plethora of overachieving Asians-- I have also read from others with stats AND ECs that would make your eyes pop who were rejected at non-ivies, too. My brother interviewed one as a Princeton alumni and could not have been more impressed, (violin plus numerous others), enthusiastically promoted him, followed up, rejected. If you look at the % of Asians in the top UC’s, I believe they makeup the majority population of several top ones. So I wonder if there is a backlash. For the record, my son with his measly 4.2, 30 ACT, Eagle scout,Varsity sports, 400 volunteer hrs only got into the UC that accepts all the b students he disdains for lack of motivation. So we are feeling the pain here, too.</p>
<p>Hunt-
The difference between the quotas of the 1920s-30s and the possible limits on the percentage of a class that is from any represented ethnic group has to do with base rates. There was not a disproportionate number of Jews applying to the Ivys then, but their numbers were capped. So, say (and I am making these numbers up) if 15% of the applicants were Jewish, perhaps only 20 students were admitted, maximum. Fast forward-- if say (again these are not real #s) if 30% of the applicants to the Ivys were Asian and 20% of the admits are Asian, is this a similar cap? Maybe yes, maybe no. Read this: [Asian-Americans</a> in the Ivy League: A Portrait of Privilege and Discrimination](<a href=“http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/43824/20100817/asian-american-college-ivy-league.htm]Asian-Americans”>http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/43824/20100817/asian-american-college-ivy-league.htm)</p>
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They draw comparisons to the quotas of the 1920s and 30s in that article, and point out that
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<p>Oh, I get it. It’s not the Ivies that are special – it’s only Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Princeton and Yale. The rest of the them are crap. (said with lots of sarcasm.) As a Brown alum, I really take umbrage at the idea that Brown and the other “lesser Ivies” will accept the dregs that Harvard rejects.</p>
<p>I have spent plenty of time on Brown’s campus in the last few years, and I can assure you that Brown accepts a lot of Asian males. And lots of Asian females. And I’m sure that there are plenty of Asian males at all the other Ivies. They just didn’t accept these four Asian males. I really doubt that the admissions officers looked at these four applications and said, “Oh look, 4 Asian males, we have too many of those, let’s reject these.”</p>
<p>And OP, I really doubt that when they make waitlist decisions, they will look at your profile and decide to move along to the next student only because you are an Asian male. </p>
<p>It could have been a purely geographic decision. Maybe the four best recruited lacrosse players came from your county, along with the sibling of a major donator. Schools want geographic diversity – once those students were accepted, they stopped accepting kids from your area. </p>
<p>Looked at it from one perspective, all schools discriminate all the time because they want diversity. No matter what niche you fill – soccer player, oboist, female, Asian, newspaper editor, Utah resident – these schools can only accept a certain number of “types” before their beds get filled. When you are rejecting 94% of your applicants, you are turning down not only Asian males, but African Americans females and Jewish American Princesses and … etc. etc.</p>
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Nothing moves faster on a message board than a good argument! Of course, it’s Saturday morning and I’m not even sure why I care about this. Frankly, I think I’ve argued both sides of this with equal vigor in the past.</p>
<p>fireandrain: Great post, but it does feed the OP’s, and other’s, opinion that he and his friend “should have been” accepted because of GPA and SAT scores. While those are acceptable to the state flagship, it won’t fly at a school like Brown, and other tops schools. OP needs to respond specifically to what was not on his application that was needed . . . rather than playing the race card, as he did.</p>
<p>20more:
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<p>Of course not. Wouldn’t want to take the chance of confirming your rejections might have been for reasons other than just being Asian males.</p>
<p>OP makes the observation that it is extremely rare for an Asian male from his high school (which has sent many kids to super selective colleges) to get an HYPSM acceptance. Rather than chalking up this result to blatant discrimination, it might make sense to try to figure out what can be changed in the future to increase the odds.</p>
<p>I’m going to guess that if you put those 4 applications side by side, you’d get a very similar profile. We know that this profile hasn’t provided wanted results. If only we could get our hands on applications that were successful, that might give us some clues on how to help future Asian male applicants from his school.</p>
<p>For example:</p>
<p>Ivys like to see passion (over used word, but bear with me)–they want to see that you
took your interest and pushed it, not only in your school but also outside your school and into the community. </p>
<p>So we have two applicants who listed school orchestra as an EC. But applicant B was the president of the orchestra and worked to acclimate the young freshmen into the group and to provide team building events to increase esprit de corps. B also tried out for honor orchestras on his own time and has won All State honors. B also is a member of a community youth orchestra that practices on the weekend and goes on tours. B also gives private lessons to younger musicians. B is going to get the nod over A, even though both listed school orchestra as an EC.</p>
<p>Essays are so important to Ivy applicants and probably the hardest thing for teenagers (especially boys) to write. The essays require examination of feelings and the ability to write in a personally self revelatory way (NOT the kind of writing you learn to do in high school) that have the ability to touch the reader. Put your essays side by side with essays from kids who got into HYPSM and see if there is a qualitative difference.</p>
<p>Looks like your school has a lock on how NOT to get Asian males into HYPSM. Rather than sending in similar profiles to ones in the past that haven’t provided looked for results and hoping for a different answer, future Asian male applicants might have better luck by changing things up. </p>
<p>I’m not saying that they should try for lousy grades and lower test scores (LOL). But if getting into HYPSM is important to Asian male applicants from this high school, they have to go about it in some different way than has been tried before. Jazz trumpeter rather than violinist? More leadership in ECs and community involvement? More outside recognition? Getting more in touch with your “feminine side” in essays? Do something!</p>
<p>BBurson: I feel your pain and disappointment for your son’s hard work=results, I have been there too…but what UC accepts “all B students who are unmotivated” these days? You really need to track the UC stat’s and keep in mind the lower end of the stats are from the lower rated high schools- totally different matrix than the top ranked 800+ API HS. At those High Schools, your kids stats have to be stellar to get into “even the mid tier UC’s” let alone the “low UC’s”. The UC’s are competitive for High ranking instate school grads. Period. Now, move to the Cal Poly SLO’s, SDSU and Long Beach-crazy, crazy. Your son will be with HIGHLY motivated kids at his chosen UC, I assure you, thanks to the college admissions randomness AND the economy. </p>
<p>But, I understand your point and disappointment.</p>
<p>FLVDAD - most of us wouldn’t want to be identified on a message board, even though it is not that difficult to identify some people on this board. In OP’s case, it may have nothing to do with race.</p>
<p>Elle explained it well!</p>
<p>Yes, he may simply wish he’d never started this thread and wishes we’d all just go away now. :)</p>
<p>Good luck, OP. I predict you will have a great educational experience and much success in life. Some day you will look back on all of this and say, “WAS I ever that young? Why did I waste that saturday???”</p>
<p>20more, as an ethnic Chinese, pay no attention to these posts that insinuate, none too subtly, that you didn’t have anything going for you other than high test scores and grades. But these days, it is simply too competitive. You could (and probably did) have excellent extracurriculars and STILL not get in to Harvahd &c.</p>
<p>But so what? Big deal. You have excellent schools to choose from. All of them are top-notch to the point where it won’t matter where you go; it’ll only matter WHAT you do. Don’t worry about keeping up with the Joneses. That’s a losing battle. Only worry about where you feel you can get the best education and come out ready to take on the world. I wish you the best in your decision, and if you are interested in the issue of race in college admissions, I encourage you to see if you can work with Ward Connerly to get a civil rights initiative on your state’s ballot.</p>
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<p>It has been made clear multiple time that if OP has complained solely about HMSPY, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Problem was the lower Ivies where OP had a strong shot of getting an acceptance.</p>
<p>The op said
There was no distinction made about which ivys they applied to (that I could find). Maybe they didn’t apply to what you call the “lower ivys”. That term offends lots of people.</p>
<p>POIH, granted that one may question why #17 and not #15 Cornell. However, which college at Cornell OP applied to may make that more clear to all. If it was for engineering at Cornell, then no, it is just as tough to get into as your DD’s school (MIT).</p>
<p>There are no such things as “lower ivies.” Nor is there really any meaningful differentiation in the long run between the places the OP got into and the ones he didn’t. </p>
<p>Dividing the world up into HYPSM, “lower ivies” and the remaining top 20 or so is really slicing the bologna way too thin. Or the baloney. The kinds of people for whom those are indeed 3 separate and distinct groupings – oh please, get a grip on reality People like that – their gasps of prestige aren’t worth seeking.</p>
<p>I feel for the OP and other kids who have been rejected, it hurts, among other things getting into an elite school like that is a sense of validation, of being special, whatever, and this rejection can feel like someone has kicked them in the gut and said “your not special, go away”.</p>
<p>Part of the problem is the assumption out there that there are magic numbers in the admissions process, that if you do X gpa, Y AP’s, get z on the SAT’s, have x ‘good’ ec’s, you will get into an ivy league school. The noted mania about playing the piano and violin is in part rooted in this idea, that there are magic things the schools look for. It is laying out a logical formula, that if you are above some magic line, you are in…and college admissions are complicated and there is no magic formula, but people believe there is, so when it fails people grasp at all kinds of things.</p>
<p>Admissions by its very nature is a discriminatory process,and in admissions colleges tend to seek diversity and balance, it isn’t just a buzzword. A school full of math and science geeks alone wouldn’t be very interesting or exciting, any more would a campus full of the legacy frat boy types be very dynamic or interesting. Back when the Ivy league was the finishing school for the wealthy wasp elite, they weren’t known for generating new ideas or being in the forefront of change (schools like MIT, that were founded to feed ideas to the industrial revolution, or schools like city university of NY and other places not for the hoity toidy likewise produced revolutionary ideas, much more then the ivies generally did). </p>
<p>With the OP and his friend, they are competing in a pool that is probably the math and science types, which is a very competitive pool, with a lot of really talented kids applying, and in a sense it is unfair, because the school has slots they open up for other things. For example, maybe OP didn’t get admitted because among the group with great stats, there were a number of kids who had very unique things, who had things that made them more interesting for whatever reason then the OP. Likewise, there could be kids with lesser stats who, for example, had started their own business or founded a non profit. From reading blogs and such written by admissions people, they tend to get a lot of kids who are cookie cutter, who have the huge SAT’s, gpa, ap’s, the requisite EC’s (and yes, they mentioned music, specifically violin and piano students on one blog), and when they compare them to kids who have different life experiences, they will give the edge to the other kids, ones who seemed to demonstrate something different (I am not saying the OP fell into this, just commenting on general). When you have groups of kids doing the same thing, loading up the AP courses, great SAT’s, doing the requisite EC’s, it must be hard to differentiate between them.Maybe the school is looking for kids who didn’t go the ‘straight and narrow path’, the ‘accepted road to the Ivy league and top 10 schools’, maybe they are looking for kids who have done unique things…maybe too the admissions people are jaded, that they are looking for kids who see their school as valuable in itself, rather then for the mystique of being an ivy league school, looking for kids who can answer “I want to go to Harvard, because the physics department seems full of interesting teachers doing wild things” rather then seeming to want to go there because “it is harvard, and i can get a job on wall street as a banker going there”…</p>
<p>I don’t think this is discrimination against kids who are Asian, I think it is discrimination against too many kids with the same background, and I suspect it applies to hyper achieving Asian kids as well as the kids who come from the prep school feeder line, they limit numbers of like kids to try and keep the place diverse. Maybe they want to have kids who want to major in a liberal arts disciplines not just all math and science, or pre med, or pre law or business administration, and I suspect that is at work here. In effect, the school admits from pools of candidates, pools that represent geographical distribution, interests, majors and so forth, and many of the kids like the OP very well could run afoul of this, that there are a ton of applicants in their ‘pool’ and thus it is harder to get in. A rough analogy would be in a conservatory setting, where for example if you are a flute player, it can be even more difficult to make it then a violinist and both of them might look at the skill level of an english horn player or a violist and say “how did they get in and I didn’t, when I play better then they did”, the answer being if the school needed english horn players or violists and had fewer to choose from, it could be easier to get in on A then B…because the school needed violists and english hornists, the standard there might be less then let’s say violin where they have a huge pool of applicants at a very high level. </p>
<p>For the OP, my words of wisdom is to understand that being rejected probably had very little to do with you as a person and had a lot to do with the crazy number of people applying. You got into a lot of good schools, ones that in some ways are equal to or better then an Ivy in some ways, and one thing no one can take away from you is what you have achieved. Given your abilities, you can go to any of the other schools and achieve spectacularly, maybe as good or better then at an ivy, and down the road you will achieve because of who you are, not where you went to school (though let me tell you, in certain fields going to a school like university of chicago might actually work better then an ivy degree, for a number of reasons). The kind of thing you face is unfortunately part of life, I have read resumes from people who have achieved a lot of things, but we wouldn’t hire because their achievements didn’t fit what we need. When you interview for jobs, you can lose what looks like a slam dunk because someone works at the company who didn’t like a boss of yours at a different company, and kiboshes hiring you because that person hated your old boss, it happens. Maybe look at this as a learning experience, that there are no guarantees in how things operate, that with jobs and careers the same kind of things happen, you think you have done all the right things, and it doesn’t happen the way you planned. I feel sorry for you guys and most kids these days, the pressure on them is ridiculous, and I am sure you also feel like in some ways you might have let others down, but please don’t feel that way, you did the right things, the problem is the system has its own idea of ‘right things’, and it isn’t a flaw or fault of yours. All you can do is work hard and try to navigate things, and evenutally things tend to end up working the way you want:)</p>