@gardenstategal you said it all.
“If your child is one who take pride not simply in being challenged and doing well but in doing better than others, you should take heed of that”
Think long and hard about this, OP.
Interesting update-- the AO from PA told my nephew that they don’t want kids who are going to isolate themselves–not just about the numbers–they are looking at students who can thrive socially, also [-X
- Andover is widely admired for their needs-blind admissions policy.
- College pressure is part of boarding school life, everywhere. But there are immense differences in how students are supported at different schools. Andover has over 1,100 students in five different clusters. Your mileage will vary.
- Andover graduated 323 Students last year: and sent 10 to Harvard. There are so many applicants that at many of the most selective colleges you are competing not only with every applicant in the world, but your own classmates. Probably true for every large boarding school.
- IGen kids in general are feeling more stressed. But from a Pediatrician at Tufts Medical in Boston: “These schools [referring to Andover in particular, but including others] are in denial about the level of stress their students are under.”
- Recent graduates tend to be much better sources of information about campus life than school officials. If non-prescription use of Adderol is a “thing,” it’s probably an indicator of academic stress. At some schools it’s nonexistent.
“Interesting update-- the AO from PA told my nephew that they don’t want kids who are going to isolate themselves–not just about the numbers–they are looking at students who can thrive socially, also.”
I think they are biased against introverts and this is another type of “diversity” in education that should be embraced.
Also, I think these (“top”) schools are a pressure cooker for many/most kids - and I’m not sure why that is so attractive, when the end result is not the same as it used to be (ie, prep for an ivy league school, when so few get in these days and I think Ivy are looking for something else now). There are schools out there that offer a more positive, less stressful environment, and for many kids, that is a better choice.
DC self-identifies as an introvert, and it’s something we specifically mentioned in the parent statement that was part of DC’s application. DC’s initial impression was that most of DC’s dorm mates are more outgoing than DC, but DC ultimately had no problem finding similarly wired kids. Of course, there are different levels of introversion, and DC is the kind of introvert that the casual observer might never identify as such, as DC does participate in team sports, ECs and clubs.
@CaliPops pretty much same for my DS…though when he does isolate himself, he is teaching himself computer programming etc. And that is fine. It is good to be comfortable alone as well as with people. But in interviews, I could tell that some schools did not like introverts.
If you accept the definition of introvert as someone whose energy is consumed by being around others (vs energized ), schools should be mindful of providing an environment where an introvert can recharge.
DS is definitely an introvert, and he didn’t suffer for it. In fact, he was supported in that regard. But I agree that it feels like BS is an easier environment for an extrovert.
I don’t agree that the schools are looking for extroverts. In my opinion, they are looking for student who will get involved and impact the community in some positive way. This may be as Class President/Student Council or as a violinist. They are looking to create a vibrant environment defined by diverse people of varying interests and expression.
I think students’ stress levels greatly depend on their perception of themselves and overall vibe. one kid might not be super competitive, has a good sense of self, etc, and is OK with the fact that they are not the best at anything anymore. They do their best, and sometimes fail, but do well overall. Another kid might have an identity crisis bcs they are no longer the best, and lash out and become hyper-competitive and be under immense pressure. I think schools should spend time looking for kids who demonstrate traits that might show that they can withstand pressure. I know that they look for high achievers, but not all high achievers deal with stress in a healthy way or know how to do well without putting immense pressure on themselves.
Don’t know about at those schools, but my daughter had sleep deprivation issue that got worsen pretty serious overtime at Grier last year. Her problem was not being able to do the work even though she was sitting on her desk looking at the work the whole evening, and could only start when the adrenaline kicks in.
So her case it was neither time management nor academic capabilities. It was addressing executive function problem that she always had, but could get away until she started boarding school.
We got professional help during the Summer. This Fall she went back to her school being prepared for it, and can go to bed before 11 pm most of the time, and can take activities on weekends. If she was overall happy last year then she is fully blooming this year.
BTW, for her it never was and will be about competition. It’s about doing all assignment on time with decent quality, and being adequately prepared for exams. Heavy stress comes from not being able to do it, and doesn’t come from not scoring high on exams. She can’t care less about who did better. Why should she, when she won’t even know how others did? Good grade is just a byproduct of being able to do the required work.
As a parent, I tell her that I don’t care much about her grade every time the subject is brought up by her, whether or not I actually feel that way at the moment. Because the worst thing for grade is anxiety, the bane of learning. Our brain learns best when it is happy and relaxed. I am sure the school, teachers, and peers give plenty of encouragement to work hard.
I will accept my kid being stressed if she wants it and it’s good for her at the end. BUT! Stressed brain simply can’t retain academic knowledge efficiently, especially for the long term. It makes them stay working longer with achieving less, and just make them miserable.
A Cluster Dean at Andover told us as a policy they do not inform parents when their child seeks on-campus counseling. It is the ONLY school we are aware of that has a policy like this.
Here’s a slightly paraphrased email conversation between us and my daughter’s putative “Advisor” last Fall:
Us: “She didn’t do well on the first programming quiz. It’s supposed to be an entry-level course but they were tested on techniques not taught in this course. When she went to ask about it, the instructor told her ‘Watch some YouTube videos.’”
Advisor: “We like students to advocate for themselves.”
Us: “She did ‘Advocate for herself,’ and received a response that would be unacceptable anywhere.”
To the Instructor’s credit, he added office hours and help sessions.
Half the class had no programming experience, and the other half had taken the course previously and was repeating it so they could get top scores and go to Harvard, apparently.
Counseling to me refers to a counselor - mental health type thing. Are you just talking about extra help from a teacher, @garandman? Or is it two different things you are addressing with your post. I’m confused.
Andover lets students take a class again or is it a class where students can pick up from where they were and make further programming progress because it is individually structured?
One big difference between Andover and most other schools is that there are five different residential clusters, with five different Cluster Deans and five different Disciplinary Committees.
The individual Cluster Deans have vastly different levels of experience in background and experience. Some are focused on helping and educating students, and some have a reputation for burning students rather than supporting them. Andover has a huge pool of applicants so they can just throw them out and replace them with equivalent but potentially more compliant students.
If you are headed in that direction, you are well advised to speak with recent graduates about what is going on in general and the different clusters in particular, especially if you adhere to the “No kids, no clue” theory.
Spoke recently to a parent who had seen this thread and has a child applying to Hotchkiss and Exeter. (They’d already removed Andover from their list.)
It had been suggested to them (I believe at Exeter) that because the Exeter campus was more compact than at Andover, students and faculty had more frequent contact and interaction. In part because Andover absorbed Abbott Academy, some of the dorm clusters are far-flung from the academic buildings as well as the athletic complex and rink, but I don’t know enough about Exeter’s layout to say if this is fair commentary.
They are very concerned about the academic and social pressure, but their student has some academic talents that will benefit from a deep course catalog, and believe they can handle these pressures.
@Garandman in our experience with 4 kids attending PEA over the last 8 years, the kids that are stressed and unhappy are a result of PEA not being a “good fit” for that student. It has less to do with the school, and more to do with how the student deals with expectations ( inner & outer), teaching style, and being surrounded by extremely talented, hard working peers.
As an example, our oldest daughter attended PEA for 2 years. She left in the middle of lower year. In hindsight, we never should have allowed her to attend. As parents, we saw her brother (one grade older) loving his time at PEA and didn’t consider the differences beteeen them. It really comes down to “fit” for each student. What made our daughter a poor fit for PEA in hindsight was the fact that she was a perfectionist who was super competitive with herself and others. She had been grade skipped, played “ up” in sports her entire life and loved the feeling of being the smartest, prettiest etc… as she had built her identity around these traits. She hated being average, struggled with Harkness (preferred to be given a formula etc…). She had a mini mid life crisis at 15 when she couldn’t maintaining the identity she had designed for herself. This does have a happy ending though. She went on to graduate from a local HS with near perfect grades, write about this experience in college apps and attend a top 30 school. She did not apply to any ivies as she knew herself well enough to know that they would not be good fits. She transferred after sophomore year in college to a higher ranked school that was a better fit - for who she was at that time.
Our other 3 were a good fit for PEA. Are they stressed- occasionally. Our oldest son is at a top engineering school for his area of study- it is way more stressful then PEA ever was according to him. Are our 2 still at PEA- happy and connected- most of the time. Would they ever trade their time at PEA- absolutely not! They loved there time there and it has shaped who they are in so many different ways.
The most recent State of the Academy survey results I’ve seen show that 79% of the students report being happy, and I’m fortunate enough to have a child who would fill out the survey in the same way. That’s not to say that the kids don’t have periods of high stress, many do, but from what I hear it’s largely self-imposed. My child reports that the kids generally try to help one another academically, as opposed to competing with one another.
They are most definitely competing with each other for slots at the most selective colleges.
Andover sent 18% of graduates to Ivies last year. While this is an impressive number relative to many other boarding schools, I’m pretty sure that more than one out of five kids there had Ivy expectations, realistic or not. Don’t forget that some PG athletes are already committed to those schools when they enter.
1 college last year for matriculation was Tufts, 13. Top Ivy was Harvard, with 10. IIRC graduating class was 323.
Don’t know the numbers for PEA.
PA had 21% matriculate to an Ivy in 2017 (65 students out of 306 according to the school profile). It been in the 20-30% range for the past number of years. #1 matriculated school for class of 2017 was Harvard (16) followed by Tufts & U Chicago (13 each).
PEA lists 3 year matriculation data - 20% to an Ivy from 2015-2017. Top three schools from PEA were Columbia (42), Yale (31) and Harvard (27) - total students 908.
Three year numbers for PA were grouped - 30+ to Harvard, NYU, U Chicago and U Pennsylvania. Columbia & Yale were in the 20-29 range at PA.
I don’t dispute that they may be competing with one another in actuality–I do think the top universities are only going to take so many kids from certain schools. But DC reports that the freshman whom DC knows best, at least, don’t seem to view it as a competition with one another. I’m sure the college matriculation issue looms larger as they progress through the grades, but at least for now, DC has not felt any kind of destructive academic competition with peers. Among other things, the kids seem to already know that, just because XX% of students go ivy or an equivalent, that doesn’t mean that having a GPA in the top XX% is going to lead to admission to one of those schools. I’m sure they all want to do as well as they can, and have as many doors available to them as possible when college admissions time rolls around, but I think there’s a difference between trying to grow, achieve excellence, and/or test oneself, on the one hand, and focusing on besting one’s peers, on the other hand. I’m sure some of both exist, but DC reports seeing the former much more than the latter. That said, I confess that this is just one kid’s perspective. Experiences vary.
I have last year’s Matriculation report, I’ll post the top schools later.
Today Phillips Academy received an unspecified email threat. Classes were cancelled, Andover PD was brought onto campus, and the FBI is involved. The report in the local newspaper said the threat originated from a town near Concord, NH. I don’t know if PEA was affected. Graduation is scheduled for Saturday.