Strike

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>Imilew: No worries. You see, it doesn't take much to ignite middle-aged parents who have nothing much to do except cruise a college thread site . . . </p>

<p>I am always amused at how everybody considers themselves a "professional." At one time, it was suggested to me that a "professional" is one who makes enough money from his/her paying clients such that he can deliver his services for free to those who cannot afford it. Thus, the notion in a time gone by that only disciplines such as lawyers and doctors [perhaps architects, accountants, etc.] were professionals. Now everybody has clients and nobody has customers.</p>

<p>So . . .can a public employee be considered a professional? [I know, I know, everybody is professional.]
I am not sure you can compare writing evaluations with writing recommendation letters. In the first instance, you do it while on the job [I know, I know, everybody works overtime] as part of your specified duties. [Assuming you are a supervisor of some type.] Writing recommendation letters, is not generally part of the official job description. Similar to decorating the classroom out of your own pocket.</p>

<p>Neither is the analogy to law professional quite correct. In fact, as long as it does not leave the client in a lurch, i.e. two days before a trial, I could [and have] leave a client that is less than cooperative, e.g. has not paid their bill or does not appreciate my efforts. </p>

<p>In the instant matter, the student isn't in a predicament either. There are alternatives. The situation might be explained to [was it a MOC?] and I would suppose that it would be understood. Counselors appear to be an alternative. In short, the situation isn't dire at the moment. [although I am sure it seems so to a 17-year old.]</p>

<p>It is a gift to be able to tolerate teaching. The middle-school teachers that I have experienced are AMAZING. The dedication the show towards our kids is incredible. [We live in a really great district.] I have nothing but respect for most of them. I could not be a teacher. Not only is the pay only marginally acceptable, the circumstances mentioned by anxious mom would drive me crazy. So, be glad there are many [apparently very many] people in your area that are willing to do the job.</p>

<p>I just don't disrespect them for striking if that's what they feel is necessary to improve conditions. Assuming they have wrapped up the year, which it sound like has happened, then more power to them!</p>

<p>Now, should we abolish the national teacher's group? [teacher's association, national eduaction association, or something similar] Maybe. That's another debate entirely.
All I know is that if we don't re-direct some resources pretty soon, USA will be left in the dust in the area science, math, technology, etc.</p>

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<p>Bill- You're such a cool guy! :)<br>
Hey, changing the subject, I'm glad school is out now because it's so darn hot in California (triple-digits) that I'm making my way down to the lovely beach with a good book. Only wish they allowed cold beer on the beach... :)</p>

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<p>OK i think my point was totally missed. Yes, I'm sure you work tons of hours and work really hard... but is it worth it? If its worth it, and you don't go find a higher paying job, then you must be content with the pay and theres no reason it should increase. If it isn't worth it.... go find a better paying job. Then if theres a teacher shortage, the pay will increase, and maybe the job will be worth it to you.</p>

<p>anxious mom, I don't see why you get paid more just for taking credits... You should be paid based on your performance. My favorite teacher of high school talked about how the district wouldn't pay for him to take a hard calculus class, but would pay for him to take some easy-A mathematician history class. The book for the class was "Mathematicians are People, Too" (152 pages). It sounded interesting, but had absolutely no influence on his ability to teach, only on his salary. He did a very good job as a teacher and the day before every test, students would fill up his class for a "study sesh" to go over all the material in 2 hours, something which I would consider above and beyond :) He has 48 ratings on ratemyteachers.com and all are happy faces... which is a pretty big feat in my book! </p>

<p>On the other hand, I had a comp sci and film teacher who admitted she was "too old for this." Seniority was on her side but that had absolutely no positive effect on her teaching... ratemyteachers.com has 9 ratings for her, all sad faces.</p>

<p>I kinda like that idea I was hearing for a while about privatizing the schools and paying teachers competitively based on their skills, I think it was on 60 minutes or something.</p>

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<p>Well don't get me to started on beer drinking restrictions. [Its a slow day!]
When I was young, I remember going to California and thinking how odd it was that you couldn't have an open container [alcohol] in the car.
God blessed Texas, we could drink and drive as much as we wanted. Then the Damn Mad Mothers got involved and now we can't drink and drive here in Texas either.
Next thing you know, somebody will be banning beer on the beach.
I am acharter member of Drunks Against Mad Moms!</p>

<p>Taffy: I tell employees/employers that all the time. Jobs are an equilibrium. You ask too much of employees or don't pay them enough: they quit. Employees are too lazy or ask for too much pay: the get fired. Teachers [much like most public servants are in a slightly different category.] Oh well, I don't know any teachers anyway but it was a good conversation starter.</p>

<p>All this heat, must be the liberal press touting global warming or something.</p>

<p>Just as an aside, and I will post to my summer thread when he gets back, we just got pictures from son "somewhere in the Atlantic." What a cool thing these kids are doing, I wish somebody had given me better eyes and better direction when I was his age. [I was too busy drinking and driving!]</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Thus, the notion in a time gone by that only disciplines such as lawyers and doctors [perhaps architects, accountants, etc.] were professionals. Now everybody has clients and nobody has customers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have neither clients nor customers. I have patients and students. And staff. A lot of staff. </p>

<p>Evaluations are very much like recommendations in terms of time and effort it takes to complete. I WISH I could get them all done on company time. </p>

<p>It is amazing how the (historically) male-dominent fields of medicine, law and archectiture get to be called "professionals," but as soon as a female-dominant field tries to do the same (teachers, nurses, etc) they somehow fall in the "call themselves...." group. Give me a break.</p>

<p>Hate to break the news to you, but more females are entering med schools in the USA than men.....and soon the same will be true for law....and more men are entering nursing....gee, wonder how we will ever sort out the professional side of things now! What is ironic is that the more females enter the medical field, the less the reimbursement. I wonder what would happen if more males entered the teaching field- therein might be the solution to the salary issue!</p>

<p>As for being a bonafide member of the "drunks against mad moms..."</p>

<p>I don't know Bill, you grouchy side is showing again. But I will forgive you, because I know you are probably missing your Mid. I am certainly missing mine. </p>

<p>navy09mom- defending attorneys? gosh, i hope not! We need them to settle all the strikes!!! ;) (ps...daughter will be entering the law profession...i mean field....in short order!) :rolleyes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I just don't disrespect them for striking if that's what they feel is necessary to improve conditions. Assuming they have wrapped up the year, which it sound like has happened, then more power to them!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you read my post again, you will find I agree......but the operational word here is "assumed they have wrapped up the year....." Thus, stike for what you need, but don't hurt the students in the process.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You see, it doesn't take much to ignite middle-aged parents who have nothing much to do except cruise a college thread site . . .

[/quote]
</p>

<p>well. glad to see the old lawyers have just as much time on their hands to cruise as the mad moms! See, Bill, we have more in common than you think! ;)</p>

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<p>Yarrrr, stupid moms against drunk driving! It’s their fault the drinking age is 21. That open container law makes no sense! I don’t see how you're harming anybody if you can stay under .08... you can pull over, open the trunk, drink a beer, get back in the car, talk on your cell phone, then drive through a school zone with a blood alcohol level of .07 and its perfectly fine... and the drunk driving limit for age 21+ is .08 while under 21 is .01... That doesn’t make any sense either.</p>

<p>Keep the controversial issues coming, it’s too hot to go outside so I might as well sit here and complain about things.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Then I usually put in about an hour or two of work after dinner. That's 3-6 hours per day that I am NOT paid for.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now you know how high school students feel.</p>

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<p>Wait a minute, who am I exchanging comments with? Now that taffy has joined the DAMM side.</p>

<p>I went into a retail store the other day and the salesperson was speaking about her clients . . . .
Give me a break!</p>

<p>How did this transfigure into a gender discussion? My law school class was at least 40% women and I will still say that my definition applies. Show me a teacher [enter any other skill, including nurses ] who can afford to teach for free because she is making enough from paying clients [taxpayers?] and I will call her a professional. [Which, incidentally, does not exclude those "professionals" who work for non-profits, etc. I am speaking of the class of people who deliver those services. Again, there may be individual exceptions to the definition, but as a whole, teachers cannot afford to do the above.]</p>

<p>I've had realtors, plumbers, mechanics, and many other skilled types of trades make the professional claim. The point is, nowdays, that everybody is a professional.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I have also seen a definition of professional that includes "a vocation requiring advanced educaiton and training." A professional is one who belongs to a learned profession or whos occupaiton requires a high level of training and proficiency. </p>

<p>I suppose that includes most everybody. So, Imilaw [what was that name] see how even the most innocuous of questions can spin off into another orbit?</p>

<p>Have a great, hot, non-alcoholic, day!</p>

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<p>I have thought that a professional is somebody who makes enough money at what they do so that they don't need a separate job to support themselves. Professional athletes are people who make enough money playing sports that they can just play sports all the time, while non-professional/recreational/amateur athletes are students/lawyers/etc. A professional XXXXXXX is somebody whose profession is XXXXXXX.</p>

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<p>From a linguistic standpoint, I suppose a professional is anybody that gets paid to do what they are doing, e.g. a professional athlete.</p>

<p>I think we [or at least I] were speaking more from a cultural standpoint, i.e. the supposed higher calling that a being a "professional" represents in our culture. [Does that mean a medicine man, who can afford give his services away to some because of the amount he charges others in his community, would be a professional in some cultures?]</p>

<p>Ahhh. . . summer and the living is easy.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Ahhh. . . summer and the living is easy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>well, this is the annapolis forum.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
They aren't able to write any letters of recommendations because they think it would defeat the purpose of the strike.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How thoughtful of them. Nothing like putting the students first (the first lame excuse every time the union pipes up)! </p>

<p>Perhaps we should be glad they're not doctors. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Do you think any of the congressmen would accept a letter, in place of my recommendations, from my guidance councelor explaining the situation for me (even though she will be on strike she said she could write something like this for me)? She would also write me a letter of recommendation herself.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you are unable to find a single one of your teachers with the personal integrity to put their stupidity aside for a minute to help a student on a matter of real importance (the kid's CAREER, for heaven's sake!), then I would do what you described above. It certainly couldn't hurt.</p>

<p>I would also suggest looking for a better school.</p>

<p>Good luck. Wish I could offer more....</p>

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<p>Well, at least you didn't have my mid's AP calculus teacher--this teacher's daughter was a guest on the Jerry Springer Show titled "Moms Who Party Too Much!" We almost die laughing everytime we talk about her! ;)</p>

<p>(Her last name kept changing too...)</p>

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<p>My lifetime goal is to go to a Jerry Springer show. . . </p>

<p>I want to be one of the ones yelling: "Trailer Trash Wh. . . " "Trailer Trash Wh...."</p>

<p>JS got me through law school. He is a brilliant example of nobody ever going broke in this country by underestimating the intellgence of Americans. God I love that man!</p>

<p>What a great country we are. Can you imagine the Arabic Jerry Springer? [If the audience member didn't like something, he would just blow himself and everybody around him up.] A French Jerry Springer. [Lets see, would he have to call everybody else in to help him save face?] Perhaps a Spanish Jerry. [Wait a minute, I think I saw something similiar on Univision the other day.]</p>

<p>I have an employee appear on JS one time, she was all proud of herself.
He's a riot!</p>

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<p>Would you qualify for a "Dads Who Party Too Much" show?</p>

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<p>Imilew,</p>

<pre><code> This has been a great discussion, but I believe you should contact the staffers at your MOC's offices and ask them what is acceptable in this situation. Here in Idaho, which has a pretty small population compared to a lot of the country (only two Congressman) my daughter had personal contact with a staffer from each office before she even started filling out paperwork. Also, she only needed a Principal/Guidance Counselor letter for each MOC. She also needed three letters of recommendation, which she got mostly from people outside of school.
</code></pre>

<p>For the Naval Academy you do need a form filled out from your Math Teacher and English Teacher, so if that is a problem you should ask your Admissions Counselor what to do.</p>

<p>I can't add much to the above conversation, except that way back in the '70s when I was trying to decide what to do for a living, I knew teacher didn't make squat compared to people with the same amount of education. Since I didn't have the dedication to be a teacher for low wages I didn't go into that career. I definitely wouldn't have chosen that career then struck for higher wages, but then that's just me.</p>

<p>Good Luck Imilew, hope everything works out and your teachers don't strike.</p>

36

<p>Unfortunately, not any more! </p>

<p>As I told Son the other day, get it while you can. . . before you know it, you'll be 28 [getting out of the Navy] and looking at mini-vans. Then, you'll be 38 and talking about how much fun you had when you were in the Navy.
Then you'll be 48 wishing you could go back to the Academy with you son . . .</p>

37

<p>Okay, I've stopped laughing. "Get it while you can..." What is "IT?"</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
Show me a teacher [enter any other skill, including nurses ] who can afford to teach for free because she is making enough from paying clients [taxpayers?] and I will call her a professional.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh Bill, Bill, Bill....where do I start?</p>

<p>Nurse: teaches BCLS at local high school to students, in community, in heart center.....gratis....trust me, lots of hours</p>

<p>Nurse: travels to south america to screen kids for corrective surgery in US...not talking cosmetic repairs....this is open heart stuff. Gratis. Oh- had to pay my own way too. Not cheap those airline flights. Have been doing it for .....16 years. Would have been more but took a few off when I had my kids. Heck of a way to spend a week's worth of vacation time each year. But I sleep well at night...(unless my daughter is out with that BF of hers, who is still lurking around ruining my beauty sleep!)</p>

<p>Teacher: writes monthly newsletter for HS sports team. Runs girl scout troop (well, for awhile anyway....retired from that one). Sits on 2 community boards- still. All gratis. Except for a free box of girl scout cookies here and there....the ones that people order, never pay for and never collect. Far be it from me to let a good mint cookie go to waste!</p>

<p>
[quote]

On the other hand, I have also seen a definition of professional that includes "a vocation requiring advanced educaiton and training."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Education you say: BS, MPA, CCRN, MSC.....will add a DNP in about 5 more courses. Add in licensing exams, mandated CEU's, and a sprinkling of advanced certification exams....renewed every 5 years......Takes a lot to be a nurse these days....even more to teach them. </p>

<p>
[quote]
A professional is one who belongs to a learned profession or whos occupaiton requires a high level of training and proficiency.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>High level of training and proficiency: hmmm...25 years in Coronary Care ICU (20 as head nurse, 5 as cardiac adminstrator)....add in a few more years as service director...proficient enough yet? Heck, it would have been easier to just paste my CV! ;)</p>

<p>I think that more than meets your qualifications. BTW-did you know you need more eduation to teach nurses than you do to litigate them? Hmmmm....wonder where that puts lawyers in the whole scheme of things! (I better warn my daughter...... )</p>

<p>My defination:</p>

<p>What makes me a professional is doing the right thing for the right reason when no one is looking. No shortcuts, no excuses.</p>

<p>Am I paid enough? hardly. What nurse or teacher is?</p>

<p>Will I leave my patient unit or my students to strike? Not if it hurts anyone. But it always does, you see.</p>

<p>Am I ever off the clock? Hmmmmm....don't think so, not that I can remember. Long-range beeper makes sure I am around when needed- and there is no excuse for a dead battery. I do get to turn it off with a clear conscience when I go on vacation however....a girl needs her rest every now and then!</p>

<p>Can all teachers do this? Can most nurses? Most do. Most give far and above what is needed, required, necessary....and far more than what I do...most can and do run circles around me......communities are run by nurses and teachers, and mothers...and even dads, even if some of them are cranky lawyers!</p>

<p>There are a few "professionals" that do not (in this case, the word professional clearly does not apply, based on my defination). A few that would deny a kid a letter of recommendation, strike or no strike. Not in their job description. Caring for kids gets turned on an off like a light switch. Burnt out? probably. Thankless job sometimes. But don't take it out on the kids. They will get no respect from me....me the nurse, me the teacher, me the parent and me the professional. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Show me a teacher [enter any other skill, including nurses ] who can afford to teach for free because she is making enough from paying clients [taxpayers?] and I will call her a professional

[/quote]
</p>

<p>this is just too good not to post again.......;)</p>

<p>So I will let you know when that DNP thing is a done deal......we can toast to all professionals over a glass of merlot as I watch you eat your words! You know Bill- I have been procrastinating about finishing this DNP thing of late, caught up with this whole Go Navy thing...but you just may have reignited my fire! Thanks!!! ;)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Okay, I've stopped laughing. "Get it while you can..." What is "IT?"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>summer lovin'</p>

<p>or maybe letters of recommendation.</p>

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<p>I think Bill's son is already on the Superintendent's List at USNA and may end up as a Rhodes Scholar, so he may be writing the letters of recommendation in the future!</p>