<p>Doctoral programs are usually free only for people getting doctorates in fields like the hard sciences. In probably most other fields, people pay to get their doctorates, and even if they have assistantships or fellowships, people still have to pay big bucks to get those degrees.</p>
<p>fendrock brought up a crucial point - transfer students to St. Johns have to do the entire four-year curriculum, so you will “lose” what you’ve already done.</p>
<p>Quoting from the St. John’s website:
Transferring to St. John’s
Because the St. John’s program is all-required, new students are admitted only as freshmen. About 25% of every entering class has attended college elsewhere first. These students, despite good records at other colleges, relinquish their advance standing to take part in the St. John’s program.</p>
<p>Fireflyscout–</p>
<p>Fortunately, that’s addressed by the January Freshman program: we start spring semester and have an additional summer semester so that we’re caught up by the time school starts again in the fall.</p>
<p>I’ve only done one semester of work, most of it elective, so if I’m going to transfer to SJC, now’s definitely the best time to do it.</p>
<p>NSM–re post #21</p>
<p>Just not true. REALLY. And I specifically KNOW it’s NOT true in philosophy, which is the subject at issue here.</p>
<p>This language is from the website of the department of philosophy at the U of Pittsburgh, which has a very highly ranked Ph.D. program. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Of the two USC professors I know on a personal level, both have sent/are planning to send their children elsewhere for college. Professor #1’s case is more relevant here: Eldest kid was an exceptional intellect and had musical talent. Was initially attracted to USC because of the music program. Toured a single-letter school, fell in love. Parents said that single-letter school was going to be far more expensive than what they’d anticipated for college, given option of USC for free or a UC. There was a major family tussle. Came to a financial agreement with kid, where kid would work parttime and take out some loans while parents came up with the rest. Kid is now finished; a younger sibling is at a first-rate LAC.</p>
<p>Maybe some negotiation between the OP and the mother is possible. Or disclosure. OP, we of course have no idea what your family’s financial situation is. For that matter, you might not, either. If there truly are financial issues, that’s a different matter entirely, in which case you may indeed need to stay at USC. In that case, you may want to approach professors in your department and ask if there’s some other way to get the type of discussion you crave.</p>
<p>Curious, OP, about whether you plan to do anything to fund attending St. Johns. If you offer to take out loans, work summers, work during the school year, that may sway your mom to take your side.</p>
<p>NSM, willing to do whatever it takes to go to SJC: loans, work, anything. Work might be more persuasive than loans, if only because we have enough money saved up for me to get either undergrad or grad school (but not both). Thus, I don’t see a problem in going to SJC for undergrad and using my tuition remission for grad school at USC. The only problem would be if 1) I didn’t get accepted to USC grad school for some reason or 2) got into a better school than USC and thus would have to pay for both undergrad and grad school. Even in that case, I would only have loans for grad school, which, as posted above, is more manageable with TA’ing, etc.</p>
<p>It’s good that you’re willing to work, take out loans, etc. </p>
<p>Given the state of the economy and how many people’s investments have lost money, are you sure that your family still has money to send you to college or grad school?</p>
<p>Are there any cheaper schools than St. Johns that also may fit your needs? I know that it has a unique curriculum, but also am wondering if there are some other LACs or even public universities that may meet your needs better than USC while not being as expensive as St Johns.</p>
<p>Many top PhD programs in philosophy are fully funded.</p>
<p>Alright, as a sophomore at St. John’s, I have a few things to add. First of all, our liberal acceptance policy and high admissions rate is just deceiving. Students don’t bother applying unless they’re absolutely committed to the st. john’s program and are willing to prove their commitment by writing 10-15 pages worth of essays. Our applicant pool is small and, for the most part, qualified. SAT scores aren’t required but most students submit them and our 25-75% range is right on par with the top 15 LACs (I think it’s something like 1260-1430).</p>
<p>Also, you should show your mom our phd productivity rankings [url=<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]REED”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College]REED</a> COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY<a href=“if%20this%20link%20doesn’t%20work,%20google%20%22reed%20college%20phd%20productivity.%22%20St.%20John’s%20appears%20on%205%20or%206%20of%20the%20lists”>/url</a>. I think something like 75% of our grads go on to earn a graduate degree (many are also admitted into medical schools each year). All this to say that graduate school placement shouldn’t be a concern.</p>
<p>Transferring to St. John’s is more complicated than most schools, but I have many friends who transferred from schools like berkeley, vassar, bryn mawr, etc. who have made it through the JF program and are really happy here. All I can say is that this school is worth it and you could never replicate the educational experience either at another more traditional school or on your own, working through a reading list. For example, I don’t think I’d have as rich an understanding of Plato’s Timaeus if I hadn’t some experience with Euclid and the freshman math tutorial. It’s all connected. Another thing that makes this school so unique is that it really is a genuine community of learning. Tutors are learning beside you, not merely professing and proffering. </p>
<p>Last thing, nothing will compare to free tuition, but our financial aid is pretty good for a school our size. Alright, sorry for the book.</p>
<p>There is a list of other colleges offering “Great Books” programs at</p>
<p>[Great</a> Books - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Books]Great”>Classic book - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>If finances are no trouble, then you should pursue St. Johns. What is the difference between the NM and MD campuses? People usually only talk about the MD campus. </p>
<p>But please, don’t take out massive amounts of loans to attend St. Johns. As perfect as it may be for you, it won’t be worth high 5 figures of debt.</p>
<p>If you like St. Johns, you may also like Deep Springs in that it has a very intellectual atmosphere, lacks frats and doesn’t seem to have partying, and is appealing only to a certain type of person. It’s even free. I know a very nice young man who went there and then transferred to Swarthmore.</p>
<p>"Courses at Deep Springs are intensive and interactive seminars. The average class size is eight, so every member must come prepared to contribute to the discussion. As a result, students devote a great deal of time and energy to their assignments, and discussions often achieve a depth uncommon at the undergraduate level.</p>
<p>Deep Springs employs three long-term professors: one in the humanities, one in the social sciences, and one in the natural sciences and mathematics. These faculty members stay at Deep Springs for as little as two or as many as six years. During this time they come to know the culture and to take part in the operations of the college. Three visiting scholars or artists also teach each semester, bringing a new range of ideas and course offerings to the college. The only required courses are Composition and Public Speaking; all other classes are chosen by students based on their interests. The curriculum includes both introductory courses and specialized courses seldom offered at the freshman and sophomore level at other institutions.</p>
<p>Faculty live on the Main Circle, less than a minute’s walk from the dorm. It is traditional for professors to leave their porch lights on in the evenings, an invitation for students to visit them at home. Students develop their academic interests in one-on-one dialogues with their teachers, often leading to enduring friendships. Professors, both long- and short-term, are encouraged to take an active role in the community. Professors labor with students, teach them practical skills like bread making and knitting, hold impromptu poetry readings and stargazing sessions, and organize chess and Ping-Pong tournaments. Education is a reciprocal relationship at Deep Springs.</p>
<p>[Deep</a> Springs College](<a href=“http://www.deepsprings.edu/academics]Deep”>Academics at Deep Springs – Deep Springs College)</p>
<p>Hey what about the tuition exchange program that USC offers as a benefit to children of faculty? Looks like you maybe can go to lots of other places for less or free!</p>
<p>Both USC and St. Johns are participants. This would take care of the financial differential issue. </p>
<p>[USC</a> Benefits](<a href=“http://www.usc.edu/dept/Benefits/edu_exchange.html]USC”>http://www.usc.edu/dept/Benefits/edu_exchange.html)</p>
<p>Derek–Thank you for the advice. I’m not very worried about acceptance to St. John’s; I wrote solid essays that clearly reflect my interest in the school and my numbers are fine. The question of whether students go to graduate school isn’t much of a concern, though when I talked to my mom today she thought the 81% that went was a pretty impressive stat. It’s more where the students go and what proportion go on to top schools. FinAid seems close to out of the question since our EFC will likely be high. The question in the family is not whether we can afford to pay, because we can pretty well, but whether it is prudent to do so given my free education here.</p>
<p>NSM–Although I know well the virtues of Deep Springs, it’s not quite as good a fit for a number of reasons: while my numbers are fine for St. John’s, if I recall Deep Springs is hypercompetitive in that regard. Also, the transfer required after the Deep Springs program would be a logistical nightmare. If I transfer, better just to do it once.</p>
<p>Ellemenope–There’s no functional difference between the NM and MD campuses. The MD campus is over three hundred years old, while the NM is maybe 40, but the curriculum is the same and many students transfer between campuses. There are some differences within the culture of each campus, but largely they’re the same.</p>
<p>Starbright–I looked into the tuition exchange, but it’s St John’s UNIVERSITY, not St. John’s College, that does tuition exchange. One is a basketball school in NY, the other is an LAC.</p>
<p>Oops- sorry. But there are so many great schools on there! Occidental, Santa Clara, Pepperdine, Bard, Endicott, Emerson, Sarah Lawrence…100s!</p>
<p>Surely there is one that would suit your goals and interest and make financial sense for your parents (especially if it provides a full tuition exchange scholarship). Why not choose one from this set large list that approximates the St. Johns College experience that would also be free? Here is the list, maybe someone on here will know of one that is very similar to St. Johns or cross reference it with the great books schools someone else found?:</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.tuitionexchange.org/partinst.cfm[/url]”>https://www.tuitionexchange.org/partinst.cfm</a></p>
<p>Here is what I found so far: St Mary’s College of California, Biola University and St. Thomas Aquinas are on your tuition exchange list and have a Great Books Program.</p>
<p>What about Gutenberg College in Oregon? It’s a Great Books school and tuition, fees, books, room, and board totaled come to under $18,000/year.</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.gutenberg.edu/business_affairs/tuition_fees.php]Gutenberg[/url”>http://www.gutenberg.edu/business_affairs/tuition_fees.php]Gutenberg[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Where are people getting that USC is free? Doesn’t tuition remission only cover tuition, not fees, room, and board?</p>
<p>Unfortunately, of the schools on that list, few to none have the prestige of either USC OR St. John’s. It would be better, I think, to pay for a school that fit and sent me to a good grad school than to go for a lesser one for free; that truly would be throwing away the opportunity I have here at USC.</p>
<p>Edit: Room and board are negligible costs next to the enormity of tuition, so it’s “free” for the purposes of argument.</p>