Student Needs Advice from College Parents

Parent Cafe
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<p>I'm a first semester freshman attending USC right now as a soon-to-be philosophy major. My mother works at the college, so I get tuition remission. USC is not at all a good fit for me: I'd prefer a more intellectual environment with less emphasis on athletics, frats, and alcohol. The philosophy program is pretty good here, but not exactly what I want. I attended the school based on its music program (which I no longer want to do professionally) and the tuition remission, but knew going in that it was a bad fit and resolved to get over it.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I've applied to and am almost sure to be accepted to St. John's College (the counselor told me in my interview "You couldn't be rejected if you tried"). I visited it and it's absolutely perfect for me: I love the Great Books program, the atmosphere, the campus, the students, the tutors—I can hardly imagine being anywhere else.</p>

<p>My mom is dead-set against me transferring. As a scientist, she is biased against LACs in general, but she also thinks that St. John's is third-rate and I won't get into as good a grad school if I go there. We have the money to pay for it, but she wants to put that money towards grad school instead. If I can't persuade her to let me attend SJC, she'll likely refuse to pay. I don't have any family to cosign for student loans if that were the case.</p>

<p>Neither of us are very in-tune with the undergrad college process (she's from Europe and didn't go to college here) so we don't know whether St. John's really is "third-rate" or not because we've only ever heard of big research universities. Is it academic suicide to leave USC for an LAC?</p>

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<p>I think St. John’s has a very good reputation in academic circles, and is hardly an “academic suicide”, especially if you are majoring in philosophy (as opposed to ,say, engineering…). But adults can be stubborn and hard to influence. If your mom is a scientist, she’ll appreciate some data - I am sure you can easily find the statistics for the grad school placement, etc, on St. John’s web site. Also, if you have some family friends (preferably ones working in academia) who are familiar with St.John’s, they might help you to make your case.</p>

<p>If you are looking to continue to PhD, most of the good programs are funded, so you won’t really need the money for that.</p>

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<p>I tend to agree with your mother. You are lucky to be able to attend a first rate University while getting tuition remission. And if you aren’t interested in USC’s football games or fraternities, then opt out of those activities and find others more to your liking. Concentrate on making friends with interests similar to yours, you will probably meet lots of people like yourself in your Philosophy classes. Good luck to you! :)</p>

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<p>Wonderful user name.</p>

<p>I’m no expert, but I can’t believe that a grad school in philosophy would prefer a USC degree over a St. John’s degree. The entire approach of St John’s seems to be perfect for studying philosophy. But, since your mom needs convincing, could you gather some data from St. John’s on how their students do in applying to grad schools? As nngmm says, data are going to impress her. Try talking to professors at St. J’s; see if the school could put you in contact with some grads. </p>

<p>St. John’s is certainly less selective than many schools, but that’s because its students are self-selecting. It’s high on the list of one of my daughter’s friends, one of the brightest, most intellectually driven kids I know.</p>

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<p>Wow. Lots of different questions floating around in there.</p>

<p>No, it’s not academic suicide to leave USC for a LAC. (I’m not certain it’s academic suicide to leave USC for anything, but I was raised with a nasty prejudice against USC, so don’t take that seriously.) In general, LACs probably do a better job of placing students in graduate (PhD) programs, especially in the humanities, than research universities. That’s in part because the students get more individualized attention from the faculty and have closer relationships with them (if that’s what the students want), and in part because LAC students tend to be a little more starry-eyed about PhD programs than their research university peers, who tend to have witnessed first hand how miserable graduate students can get.</p>

<p>St. John’s is well-known and well-respected throughout academia (at least in the humanities and not-quite-hard social sciences). My guess is that very few faculty actually thinks a Great Books curriculum is a good idea – even at the University of Chicago, people tend to bristle when anyone suggests that its Core Curriculum is like St. John’s. But most would acknowledge that a motivated student can get a perfectly good education in a Great Books program, and be well prepared for graduate school in a non-technical field. That certainly goes for law school, too, or business school. (I don’t have any idea whether St. John’s students get accepted at medical schools without additional post-bac science courses.)</p>

<p>I’ll add that from where I sit – East Coast, intellectual snob – I would regard St. John’s and USC as representing different variations on the same academic tier, i.e., a step down from really elite universities and LAC, but still very solid in terms of the students they attract. I would immediately be interested in a St. John’s student because I would know he or she really cared about a classical education. A USC student would have to overcome prejudice on my part (although I would be telling myself that, as with Elle Woods, blonde and social doesn’t always mean dumb and shallow).</p>

<p>Philosophy, especially (and literature, and classics, and history) seems especially suited to a Great Books curriculum. I suspect that if you pulled apart the philosophy-related content of the St. John’s curriculum and compared it to the syllabi of the courses required for a philosophy major at USC, there would be a really substantial overlap. Your teachers at St. John’s might be less plugged-in to the latest and greatest, but you would almost certainly have a more-solid grounding in the history of philosophy. If your long-term plan is to go to graduate school in philosophy, I can’t imagine that St. John’s would hurt you.</p>

<p>But. I also can’t imagine that St. John’s at full freight is a good value compared to USC for free. Surely there are students at USC who are not swept up in the football/frat/f’ed-up lifestyle. You just need to find a few of them. I’m sure the faculty appreciates its serious students, and is willing to bend over backwards to help them along. And for $30,000+ per year, you could learn to tune out the bozos. I’d even bet that if you worked at it you could come pretty close to replicating the St. John’s curriculum at USC (except that you wouldn’t be in an environment where everyone was doing that).</p>

<p>USC may not be a perfect fit for you, but (notwithstanding my crack above) it’s a major university that offers all the opportunity you need to get the education you want. It would hardly be academic suicide to leave it for St. John’s, but it shouldn’t be academic (or psychic) suicide to stay, either.</p>

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<p>I agree with JHS. I’m asuming you’re thinking about the Annapolis campus. The Santa Fe campus offers some unique outdoor survival and rescue opportunities which is pretty cool. We’re good friends with staff there, including a dean. Some mighty creative people have done very well with their St. John’s education (think MacGyver TV series). Nevertheless, USC for free is something that’s hard to beat.</p>

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<p>Given the economy, I think that you and your family would be better served by your accepting the free education from USC. If you don’t like USC, then perhaps your mom would agree with your transferring to a public university in Calif., where you’d be able to attend for far less money than St. John.</p>

<p>St. John’s is a wonderful college, but with the economy as terrible as it is now, I think it would be unwise to pay the big bucks to go there. Even affluent people are being hit hard by this recession.</p>

<p>Surely in a place as large and as well respected as is USC, you can find excellent courses as well as compatible peers and ECs.</p>

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<p>I may be wrong but I’ve been told that the tuition remission is good either for undergrad or grad school but not both (have a friend who did undergrad elsewhere and is now having law school at USC paid for). I know nothing about St. John’s but if you went there for undergrad you could do USC for grad school tuition free…</p>

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<p>Wow…that’s a tough one. Which St. John’s are you talking about–NM or MD? I’ve known 2 St. JOhn’s (MD) graduates and they are impressive. </p>

<p>It’s a tough decision because of the fact that USC isn’t a bad school (and has climbed higher on the intellectual scale in the past 10 years with targeted recruitment) and you are getting it on the cheap (I’m assuming that you are living at home). Trade that for a school far away, with extra costs for R&B and tuition–in this time of economic uncertainity. </p>

<p>Mmmmm…can you just read the Great Books on your own?</p>

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<p>Not to downplay the money issue, which can be a deciding factor for many families… it is very hard for me to imagine someone who really-really loves St.John’s being happy at USC.</p>

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<p>A first semester freshman that chose USC for its music program, but is now a philosophy major - I say give USC some more time. Tomorrow you’ll want to major in film production and the next day sociology. Being at a university gives you plenty of options as you flip and flop around the possible majors.</p>

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<p>Wouldn’t it be difficult to transfer in to St. Johns?</p>

<p>I thought they had a very specific curriculum, starting with the Greeks, that begins freshman year. So a sophmore transfer would be a year out of sync.</p>

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<p>“I’d prefer a more intellectual environment with less emphasis on athletics, frats, and alcohol.”</p>

<p>It is your choice. ANY environment at ANY school is an individual choice. You do not have to be participant. </p>

<p>Other than that, I believe that it is hard to be successful anywhere if you are not happy there. School, job, country where you live. You either have to find the way that it works for you or leave. Your mom left her motherland for that reason - you can use this argument while talking to her about your situation. Be very respectful and polite when you want her to see your side of the story. Best wishes!</p>

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<p>How does the USC philosophy program differ from what you want?</p>

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<p>Hi Chai! (I like the sound of that!)</p>

<p>St Johns is a great school in an awesome location. </p>

<p>That said, I think you need to really seriously consider this question: Is part of the attraction to St. Johns tied to being away from home? My D could attend my own institution tuition-free; but it wouldn’t have been good for us to bump into each other on campus. She really needed to get away from home so she could spread her wings a bit.</p>

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<p>My D could also go to my university for free, and its a great school and big enough we’d not see each other. I also know its big enough she could carve out her own experience within it (often first year classes are big and full of disinterested kids who have to take these classesclasses; and it changes a huge amount as one moves more into smaller classes with just those in their major). But she wants to be afar and I’m not sure how this will play out (for her my university is too familiar- she’s spent her life growing up there- so I can see the need).</p>

<p>Having said that however, it seems really hard to justify spending an extra $120,000-$200,000 in tuition when I absolutely know there will be little substantial difference in her acquired education or future options. Paying for education is one thing, paying for ‘just the right college experience I was imagining’ at these prices is a whole other category Add in the fact that this is a unique purchase in that one really can’t know if they got what they have bought until they buy it and use it (brochures and visits are never sufficient and the same colleges can create very different experiences for different kids). </p>

<p>Sorry I’m not great with advice here. Just something I’ve been thinking about too.</p>

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<p>We had the same dilemma. We ended up letting the kids go where they wanted (though they had to come up with some reasons for their decisions that were better than “food”, “weather” or “going away from home”…). I think it worked out for the better in our case - both got an exceptional education, at programs that turned out uniquely fitting for their personalities and needs (though I am sure that both would have done fine going to “our” highly respected university…).</p>

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<p>A bunch of questions! Wow! Thanks for all the replies thus far.</p>

<p>I’ve applied to the NM campus because it’s the one with a January Freshman program—I would be caught up by fall '09. I’ve spent many years working through the Great Books and have actually made some progress with the ones on the list. The problem is that I can’t always understand everything there by myself. My philosophy class is working through the Republic right now. I read it myself and attended a Republic seminar on my St. John’s visit right now. Out of those three methods, I learned the most, got the deepest interpretation of the text, and enjoyed the seminar the most.</p>

<p>I’m at the top of my class in an upper-level philosophy seminar right now and I can tell it’s one of the good philosophy classes at USC: the professor is very knowledgeable and lectures well. I’m not experiencing disenchantment with the 100-levels because I never bothered taking them. But there is no class discussion whatsoever, which, as I talk to upperclassmen in the philosophy department, is almost universal. Also, many classes focus on things outside the text itself, or the historicity of the text, while I would rather learn about the ideas; history I CAN read myself. </p>

<p>Most would agree that I shouldn’t leave USC for social reasons or to spread my wings, as cadbury put it; those sort of things do not justify the expense of another college. My question is this: at what point does poor fit justify transfer, or are financial considerations the only factor in choosing between two schools of approximately equal prestige (albeit of different types)?</p>

<p>It seems to me similar to music programs. The majority of the courses in a music degree are the same at any school: music history, theory, aural skills, etc. Is it then appropriate for an opera singer to go to a school that focuses on musical theatre? After all, it will provide a good education and open up many doors, particularly in musical theatre.</p>

<p>The education at St. John’s is unquestionably different and opposite from USC’s. If education is merely a direct return on investment (additional salary from possessing a college degree), then it is unquestionably not worth it. In fact, I doubt by that standard many could justify a school without a free ride or a state college. And yet there remains appeal in attending other colleges, implying that there is something more to college than the career. What is it?</p>

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<p>As an alumna of USC, there is an intellectual side to the school. I was there on scholarship, lived in the honors dorm, took Thematic Option and through that met many intellectually stimulating people. One of my close friends was a Philosophy major at USC and enjoyed it immensely. He is now a PHD student in Philosophy at UCI.</p>

<p>It’s hard to ignore football, but that is over after the Fall semester. I wasn’t into the Greek scene, so it was very easy to ignore that. </p>

<p>Are you living in university housing? If so, you could consider trying to move to a place like Parkside or Marks Hall? Those buildings tend to be less greek.</p>

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<p>Palmak–</p>

<p>Just want to point out that very few people pay for Ph.D. programs. They are usually free and you receive some sort of stipend, which may/may not require you to TA or teach.</p>