<p>I laughed out loud when I read this:</p>
<p>Law</a> Students Sue School Over Being Graded on a Curve</p>
<p>Why wouldn’t they be allowed to see their scores?</p>
<p>They don’t report on whether or not the exams were blind. That would obviously affect any claim that they were intentionally targeted.</p>
<p>I’v heard of a few other schools that have an academic policy that curves law school exams, with the bottom percentile being released each year. I don’t know if that’s true or if it’s a myth, but it would be a scary academic policy. I’d agree that students have a right to be upset if they actually know almost all of the material but are curved out anyway. That’s why schools with curve-out policies should obviously be avoided, and why students should check the academc policies of any law school that they choose to attend. Curve-out policies, formalized C or B curves, and 1st year scholarships tied to maintaining a particular GPA if the school’s grading curve is lower, are all red flags that need to be weighed carefully when selecting a law school.</p>
<p>Although TX Southern is relatively inexpensive, I’d still say that after letting these students incur approximately $15K in tuition, the school owes them the courtesy of an explanation. I’m not laughing at their situation, Sally. They should have known the school’s policies and the risks they were taking by going to school there, but I don’t blame them for asking for further information.</p>
<p>Uh, yeah, why WOULDN’T they be able to release the test scores and physical tests themselves to the students? Sounds fishy.</p>
<p>Neonzeus, most of the top law schools (and probably many others) maintain a strict grading curve, particularly for 1L courses. That said, the curve doesn’t typically include failing grades, which are reserved for truly failing efforts. In fact, when I began law school (my law school has since changed its grading policies), grades in first year classes were H (honors), G (good), Q (qualified) and F. Twenty percent of each class were given grades of H, and forty percent were given each of the grades G and Q. Therefore, 40% of every first year class received Qs in a class. That said, rarely did any one student receive all of any one grade or another – most received a mix of grades. </p>
<p>In addition, at most law schools grading in 1L classes is indeed blind. Students are given numbers to use on their final exams and those numbers are the only identifiers professors see. After grading is completed, an administrator puts the anonymous numbers back together with student names in order to report grades. The idea is to protect the free exchange of ideas and perspectives that may be controversial (or different from those held by the professor) during classroom discussion in a way that prevents students from being penalized for those ideas and perspectives during the grading process. Some law school discussions become quite hot debates!</p>
<p>In 2L and 3L classes, grading on final exams is still typically blind, though there may be components of classroom participation and other measures incorporated into grading. </p>
<p>It would not be surprising if law schools would require maintenance of a certain GPA for scholarships to continue from year to year. </p>
<p>Law schools typically do not release exams to students immediately following those exams. Some professors will choose to release exams to students in later years or (as at my law school) make old exams available to the law school community through library loan or otherwise. As you may know, most 1L exams consist primarily of essay questions in several parts, and I can’t imagine that those questions would be too difficult to remember for any student who took those exams recently. </p>
<p>As for reviewing graded exams, I was always able to review my final exams, but the review was not very illuminating. Almost always, there were pencil marks at the end of each essay response with either some cross hash marks or simply with a number. That was it. No one would ever give you insights into what you did right or wrong. Again, since the grading was curved, you were ultimately being graded relative to your peers rather than simply against an arbitrary standard. If your peers did better than you, your grade wasn’t as high as theirs. It was as simple as that.</p>
<p>Getting grades that average out to below a 2.0 is nothing to crow about. So what if there was one “D” grade in contracts? These students had to do pretty crappy across the board in order to get a GPA so low. As far as I’m concerned, the reality is that the complaining students have a lot of explaining to do. How did they manage to do so poorly in all of their classes? Perhaps the law school was doing them a favor by pushing them out so that they could pursue another career. Sometimes people don’t want to listen to advice that tells them that law school is not the right avenue for their education, whether it comes before beginning 1L year or after.</p>
<p>I do understand your points, Sally. I went to law school too, have been practicing almost 35 years (weighing a GC position) and one of my kids will be graduating law school. Yes, my exams were blind and my kid’s exams have been blind. The article mentoned that these students felt targeted. As I pointed out, blind exams would appear to eliminate that possibility. The article indicated that these students weren’t being given any information about their exams at all. I don’t think that is reasonable.</p>
<p>Since you usually seem willing to provide helpful advice, your perspective on their misfortune seems harsh and, IMO, mean-spirited (although I’m sure some prospective law students will find all of the extra information about grading that you offered to be useful.) </p>
<p>I agree with you that they might not be doing well across the board. Theoretically, they might have picked up most of the material but just not done as well as others in their class according to the curve. I think they are entitled to see their exams and understand what they missed. The result would be the same, but I believe they have the right to know what happened so they can make informed decisions about their futures. I missed any mention anywhere of “crowing” about bad grades, and I don’t think that was the point of either the initial article or the report that you linked. Yes, there was certainly some wishful thinking in the article. I think it’s clear that they are hoping that their exams will prove to be redeemable.</p>
<p>Regarding scholarships, there are constant warnings on top law schools and the other law school applicant sites about law schools that make it impossible to keep scholarships due to practices like implementing a lower grade curve that guarantees a large percentage of scholarships will be lost, or putting all of the scholarship students in the same section to compete against each other. Those web sites identify schools that are rumored to be notorious for those practices.</p>
<p>“Those web sites identify schools that are rumored to be notorious for those practices.”</p>
<p>Please provide a place to read more about this topic, intentional curving-out, et cetera.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>Sorry Xavi - CC doesn’t let you put other sites up here. If you look for the top law schools site, you’ll find this information in their forum discussions. Their site will lead you to the other sites for prospective law students. You’ll have to register to search, such as for “stacking sections.”</p>
<p>I’m no lawyer, but I always thought that a truly innocent wo/man would want to clear her/his name pronto, and would comply with any request that would lead her/him to do so. Therefore, wouldn’t it be in the school’s interest to release the tests to the students in question, if for anything to eliminate the accusations against them in regards to the tests?</p>
<p>It’s one thing if these students in particular were denied access to their exams for whatever review they think might be useful, but it’s quite another if the school or this professor simply doesn’t release exams. Many professors do not release exams (a) because they don’t include any markings on those exams that would shed light on a grade and (b) because they just don’t – either because they plan to use similar questions in future exams or otherwise. If these students in particular were not targeted for special treatment, then this just sounds like a whole lot of whining about a crappy law school grade. Would these students have complained if they had received Cs instead of Ds? Does a law school student who is only achieving Cs and Ds really have much hope of practicing law in today’s legal economy anyway?</p>
<p>My laugher at the article was actually a result of the way the article was written rather than the predicament the students find themselves in. Truly, suing a law school over grades that “caused” these students to flunk out (when, again, they were pretty much borderline students in all of their other classes anyway) reeks of entitlement. Why not sue over the professor that gave them Cs instead of Bs. Those Bs might have tipped the scales so that the Ds they received wouldn’t have mattered so much. Is it really that tough to maintain a 2.0 GPA? Really?? Kids with GPAs below 2.0 get kicked out of schools all the time – not just this law school.</p>
<p>The entire system of taking and grading exams would grind to a halt if students had the ability to second guess their professors at every turn. Grading in law school is, at least in part, subjective. Case closed. Could anyone argue that one exam should have been rated higher than another? Sure. However, it is up to the professors to make those judgments. Are professors always right about assigned grades? Probably not, but the procedures, and making judgments, is the name of the game across our entire educational system from high school to college to law school. </p>
<p>Could this law school have closed this can of worms by releasing the two tests in question? Maybe. However, how could these students ever know whether their exams were graded on the curve correctly unless the entire class’s exams were also reviewed? When would the arguments about these exams end? </p>
<p>As you well know, neonzeus, there is no huge magic to doing well in law school. Go to class, study, study some more, and study even more. Use whatever native intelligence you have to apply your studied learnings to the facts presented on an exam and take the test. Someone will always be on the bottom of a bell curve and someone else will always be on top. If you move one piece of the puzzle, you must move another. These students need to stop moaning about their pitiful performance in law school and examine their own efforts in order to determine where they went wrong. Their performance on any one exam is a symptom of their disease, and not the cure to their failure to succeed in law school.</p>
<p>Also, in re-reading the article, I see that the exam was a multiple choice exam (so I understand completely why it was not disclosed because those questions are typically used again and again, at least in part) and that 50% of the grade was based on class participation. Are these students alleging that they had the best class participation of anyone in their classes such that it is incomprehensible that they could fall into the bottom of the bell curve? Where are their outraged classmates and the affidavits in support of their lawsuit if these two were indeed superior students in terms of class performance? </p>
<p>(As an aside, only the essay portions of my law school exams were ever made available to me – have any of the other attorneys and law students on this board ever seen any multiple choice questions and answers upon request after the fact? I would be interested to hear.)</p>
<p>Realistically, too, why would a visiting professor go along with any scheme to “curve out” students who are paying massive amounts of tuition to attend law school? Is there a conspiracy afoot? Of course, it couldn’t be possible that these students had anything to do with their own failure to succeed in law school, right? As many of us know, the real world judges us harshly and not with the kid gloves with which many Millenials have been treated. We don’t all get ribbons when we run a race - just the winners. </p>
<p>Would these same students have sued their law school after graduation when they couldn’t find jobs with their sub-2.0 GPAs?</p>
<p>Oh good grief Sally. Did it ever occur to you that a student might actually have a legal right to see the exam that a professor claims he failed? Under the Freedom of Information Act, these student may be literally ENTITLED to see the exams the professor claims they failed. If this law school is a public school, they may be required to turn over the exam, instead of continuing to hide it.</p>
<p>Would you let someone fail you and then refuse to show you the test they graded? I think you (or anyone else) would want to know the reasons. Also, I have NEVER had a professor in my entire academic career who refused to go over an exam with me, and show me the questions I missed, or explain why they didn’t like my answers.</p>
<p>It takes a very simple mind to look at this case and think its just about someone getting mad about failing. There is more going on here.</p>
<p>Also, many law school graduates are suing law schools for cooking up employment statistics to make it seem they will have a promising career after law school. Printing materials with cooked-up statistics and inflated figures, in order to induce students to attend a school, is basically FRAUD. These law schools know very well that there are dismal prospects out there for even the brightest law school graduates.</p>
<p>I asked an acquaintance who graduated from Marshall Law School and she said that they encourage people who are curved out to re-enroll and try again. I wonder if they burned that bridge.</p>
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<p>Your law school professors took the time to walk through a final exam with you? What would be the point? When the only exam you take for a class in law school is one final exam, and it doesn’t matter whether you learn from your mistakes because once you take that exam, you are no longer taking that class? What would be the point?</p>
<p>Out of all of the final exams that I took in law school, I was only ever allowed in some cases to see the blue books with my essay answers. I was never allowed to see the multiple choice questions or short answer questions. I was never even given a copy of the essay prompts for my blue book answers.</p>
<p>Every blue book contained small checks in the margins (maybe) and a simple number at the end of each essay. That’s it. There is nothing to go on even if you get back your exam. </p>
<p>I have to tell you - it is tough to fail an essay exam. Even if you get the answer entirely wrong, as long as you do the work to apply the facts presented to the legal analysis you’ve chosen, you will do well enough to pass in the vast majority of circumstances. To fail even one law school exam, let alone enough of them to fall below a 2.0 GPA is insanity. On a multiple choice test, rarely will any professor release those questions or answers. That’s just the way it is. </p>
<p>Oh, and failing law school exams has nothing to do with the fraud that many law schools are likely committing when they inflate their employment and bar passage statistics. That is another issue entirely.</p>
<p>“Oh, and failing law school exams has nothing to do with the fraud that many law schools are likely committing when they inflate their employment and bar passage statistics. That is another issue entirely.”</p>
<p>They do have to do with each other if the student failed the exam because the school or professor were fraudulent.</p>
<p>Please mention, if you don’t mind, which law school you attended so I make sure none of my good friends attend an institution that remotely acts in secrecy about grading. I wouldn’t expect a professor to just release all the answers to a multiple choice test like a HS teacher or something, but if a student took the class and took the test, then I personally think they at least deserve the professors time to go over it if there are any concerns or questions. It would seem to me as basic a mutual understanding of wanting to see the student succeed.</p>
<p>I went to a top law school. In fact, mine was considered a bit more touchy feeling that others in the top tier. The vast majority (if not all) of the top law schools handle matters similarly. Sorry.</p>
<p>If you want hand holding through the exam process, law school may not be for you. It’s fast paced, brutal, and grades can seem incredibly arbitrary. There is a strict curve, so how well you do matters only in relation to how well your classmates do. So, for example, many tests are not actually given a grade but instead a rank. The rankings of the exams is what determines grades on a strict curve. Oh, and my business school degree grades were handled in much the same manner. </p>
<p>Falsifying placement statistics and entering class GPAs/LSAT scores has nothing to do with any purported fraud in grading final exams. Two different issues entirely. One has to do with a school manipulating numbers to get students to enter that school. The other is an allegation that somehow a school and a particular professor were out to get a particular student. </p>
<p>Goodness, do you all cry to your schools and blame them when you get 2.0 GPAs? Someone with a 2.0 doesn’t bear the blame for those grades? Really? Talk about trying to find a scapegoat for one’s own failures!</p>
<p>I might more be more persuaded if the low grade was an outlier, and the student was otherwise doing quite well. As it is, the complaining students were failing. Truth be told, they were probably better off pursuing some area of education/some profession other than law.</p>
<p>I’ve asked around the attorneys I work with (including two from Harvard and Yale). All of them said that they were able to talk to their law school professors about their exams.</p>
<p>Sally’s posts speak for themselves. Watch out for the flying monkeys!</p>
<p>On that note, it’s time to walk away from CC again. I keep coming back to browse for information for my kids who are in colleges and grad schools, but these forums just drive me crazy.</p>
<p>This was back in Dark Ages, but my professors had no problem letting us review our exams-frankly, they didn’t seem to care. But good luck getting your grade changed…</p>
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<p>If you want some advice from a successful, practicing attorney, I am here to provide some insights. I have been recruiting on campus at top law schools for years, and have significant contact with both the career and admissions offices at those law schools. If you choose to shut your eyes as tightly as possible to keep from noticing what is going on around you, that is your prerogative. You need not take my advice. You need not read anything I write. However, you don’t know me or much about me, so please keep your opinions about me personally to yourself.</p>
<p>If you have friends to ask about what is going on at law schools then ask their opinions. Unless you have something to add to the discussion, I agree that perhaps it is time for you to take a break from cc, neonzeus.</p>