<p>Sh*t</a> UChicago Students Say. - YouTube</p>
<p>This isn't bad! Funny to see how, while it's been a long time since I was there, some of the sayings seem similar (e.g. "are you in the mood for coffee and pretentious conversation?").</p>
<p>As the Nondorf classes fully take over, I wonder if there will be much left of these UChicago sayings...</p>
<p>That’s an interesting comment Cue7…why do you wonder if these sayings will still be around after the Nondof classes fully take over?</p>
<p>“the Nondof classes fully take over”</p>
<p>What?</p>
<p>I guess I should clarify here - I’m actually talking about two forces that seem to be at work at UChicago: the rise of more “well-rounded” classically accomplished incoming classes (under Nondorf’s watch), and the steady rise of grade inflation at UChicago.</p>
<p>If these two forces are actually occurring (and there seems to be strong evidence for the latter trend, and at least some evidence for the former trend), these UChicago sayings in the youtube video would naturally die down.</p>
<p>For example, in the video, students talk about being “beaten down” by classes, and you see scores of students passed out in the library. This was certainly true back in my day, where, to use a UChicago’s professor’s phrase, students felt they needed to “suffer into learning.” </p>
<p>Now, if 40% of the class graduates with honors, the average GPA becomes 3.5, and more of the class is savvy and able, these sayings won’t carry as much weight. Is it possible to complain about the punishing nature of the school when the average grade is a B+ or A-? </p>
<p>To be clear, I’m not even saying these trends are bad trends - I don’t think it’s healthy for a college to be as punishing as it was back when I attended UChicago, where you could conceivably struggle mightily to get a C+ or B-. </p>
<p>At the same time, I just mean that a lot of the sayings found in this video might not carry weight ~5 years from now, when the UChicago experience may indeed be more gentle (which is good!).</p>
<p>Put another way, this video accurately captured what I certainly felt when I was at UChicago - stress surrounding academics. UChicago provided a rigorous education for me, but it was definitely a grind. Students were inquisitive and very intellectually curious, but also often stressed by the tough nature and stringent grading that characterized academic life at the school.</p>
<p>In contrast to this, I spent a good deal of time at Brown, and the students were equally as inquisitive and worked very hard, but I did not feel they were as punished academically as their UChicago counterparts. The school, at the time, had a much more laidback atmosphere because students could explore, and know that they were pretty much going to get mostly As and some Bs in most courses. </p>
<p>As grade inflation hits UChicago, and the classes become more capable, I doubt that the “suffer into learning” concept I experienced will resonate as much with my contemporaries on campus. </p>
<p>Again, I actually think this is a welcome trend, and, in retrospect, I think having a student body that is very active intellectually and very inquisitive, but also not beaten down by an overly harsh (vis a vis its peers) grading system can lead to a generally better college experience. </p>
<p>A quote that comes to mind from the video about UChicago: “I feel like I’m in an abusive relationship and I want a divorce.”</p>
<p>That was a common sentiment in my day, where many students had a love/hate relationship with the school. At the same time, again, if most students are getting very good grades and the classes are becoming more capable, I just don’t know why students five years from now would make the same comments. Again, this could very well be a welcome trend! This is also just an observation on my part.</p>
<p>Cue7: What I think you underestimate is how much of the “punishing nature of the school” is due to the incoming students’ natural tendencies to push themselves and at the same time, have a PERCEPTION that the University is extremely difficult.</p>
<p>Even if you get As every previous quarter, the PERCEPTION is that in this coming quarter you’re going to get screwed because of how hard Chicago’s classes are. So they work their asses off this coming quarter as well, thinking that their past As were due to luck or some fluke. And really, it’s not that difficult to see why students would think this: they’re surrounded by other brilliant people, and are always comparing themselves with those other brilliant people and finding themselves inadequate.</p>
<p>What makes Chicago hard isn’t the fact that it’s hard to get As. (Frankly, it’s not nearly as difficult to do as it once was.) It’s the PERCEPTION that it’s difficult, which drives students to exhaust themselves trying to keep up.</p>
<p>Sidenote: At my time at Chicago, it also was VERY common for professors to veer off the curriculum and go into very off-topic material, and students have no idea if they need to know this material. As far as I know, this going-off-topic thing is pretty isolated to Chicago: the professors know how passionate the students are, which is why they enjoy going off into interesting side-topics, but it causes a lot of stress for other students who aren’t as passionate about the subject matter.</p>
<p>Phuriku:</p>
<p>When do students simply realize that their perception is not in line with the reality of the situation? In my day, when there really wasn’t any grade inflation at UChicago, and there certainly was grade inflation at other top schools, UChicago naturally had a different feel.</p>
<p>It seems sort of strange that UChicago students would continue the “perception” of a punishing academic environment when they readily have statistics that reveal that UChicago, like all other top schools, engages in pretty significant grade inflation. </p>
<p>If the school is actually punishing, that’s one thing, but if it’s not, at some point, the jig will be up, no? I estimate that point will be ~5 years from now, and it’s probably already occurring.</p>
<p>Cue7: Take Swarthmore for instance. Swarthmore has had grade inflation for quite some time, and a significant amount of it. I think the average GPA there is higher than 3.5. Yet they have t-shirts and sayings indicating that it’s harder to get good grades there than at Harvard.</p>
<p>When there are sayings like “Chicago is where fun comes to die” or “If I wanted an A, I would’ve gone to Harvard,” it’s easy to buy into it as reality, even if rationally once understands otherwise. However, as indicated by some posts here on this board, not many students know that Chicago practices grade inflation. Most people, students included, still consider Chicago a school practicing grade inflation and just count themselves extremely lucky with their choice of professors to be getting As. Honestly, that’s kind of how I thought when I was there. Most people don’t realize the reality of the situation until they graduate.</p>
<p>Right and phuriku, what I am saying is that at some point, perception needs to reflect reality. It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, but when students see that 40% of the class graduates with honors, the myth of being tremendously more difficult would need to fade, right?</p>
<p>Swarthmore is a terrific example because of precisely that point - students are growing more aware of the fact that the avg glad is rising. The nature of the school is still to worry about grades, but, without actually receiving bad grades, the “punishing” nature of the school becomes muted. </p>
<p>Put another way, its a very different atmosphere when students push and push themselves and wind up with b+s and A-s than it would be if students push and push and wind up with a 2.9 gpa. At some point (I think soon) that will slowly but inexorably change the vibe of a school.</p>
<p>Oh and moreover, this info is becoming more and more transparent, which certainly doesn’t help keep up the perception of a punishing “beat me down” atmosphere.</p>
<p>The type of student coming to Chicago today most likely sees a B+, and certainly a B as a “bad” grade, or at least a mediocre one. So if one of them puts heart and soul into a course, A+ effort, and gets a B+, that can still feel like a beatdown.</p>
<p>JHS - I suppose, but what is the average GPA at UChicago now? It’s probably between a B+ and an A-.</p>
<p>I suppose a B+ can make students feel “beaten down,” but I still think there’s a pretty big psychological difference between getting a B+ and a C.</p>
<p>In my day, most UChicago students were accustomed to getting very good grades in HS (maybe not as many as there are now, but most UChicago students back then were pretty stellar HS students), and I just think there’s a big difference between getting a B+ and a C or C+ - the latter two grades of which are handed out very rarely nowadays at UChicago. </p>
<p>Maybe I’m missing something, but the difference between getting a B+ - which is deflating after a lot of work - and getting a C/C+ - which seems more punishing - seems pretty material to me. Thoughts?</p>
<p>Average GPA isn’t publicly published, but the rumor-mill tends to pin it between 3.1 and 3.3. Which is between a B- and a B. Not sure how accurate that is; however, I would guess that the truth is closer to that than to a GPA between a B+ and an A-.</p>
<p>A 3.1 to 3.3 GPA is between a B and B+, not a B- and a B. So even the rumor mill puts the average GPA at a level that is a decent grade. (Yes, current students may think a B or B+ is the end of the world, but it’s not horrible.)</p>
<p>Also, there seems to be evidence that most students are getting between a B+ and A- at UChicago, given how many kids seem to be graduating with honors these days.</p>
<p>To give an example, in my day, the conception was the average grade was a C+/B- (between a 2.5 - 2.8 GPA), whereas the reality was the average grade was probably around a B (~3.0 GPA). </p>
<p>Now, students may think the average GPA is around a B (~3.0), but the exact average GPA, I’d wager, is probably between a B+ to A- range, which is probably about 3.4 or so. </p>
<p>In roughly 10-15 years, it’s feasible to say the UChicago gpa has increased from ~3.0 to about a 3.4. That’s a pretty significant increase over a smallish period of time.</p>
<p>I think Swarthmore’s seen a similar trend as well, from what I hear. There are few truly rigorous top schools nowadays, save for some engineering schools and some science schools that still use tough curves.</p>
<p>Also, for a good study on grade inflation, check:</p>
<p>[National</a> Trends in Grade Inflation, American Colleges and Universities](<a href=“http://gradeinflation.com/]National”>http://gradeinflation.com/)</p>
<p>The data is incomplete, but it’s about the best we have. As seen here, in 2006, the avg. UChicago gpa was supposedly a 3.35 - above a B+. This is a bit lower than a couple peer schools (Duke and Penn are in the 3.4 range, Harvard is at 3.45), and higher than schools that have renounced grade inflation (e.g. Princeton - at a 3.28 avg gpa). Swarthmore, by the way, in 2009, was at a whopping 3.53 avg gpa. So much for harsh grading there!</p>
<p>As I imagine UChicago has continued on an upward GPA trend, an average GPA of 3.4 by 2012 seems about right, as the last known data was in 2006.</p>
<p>Well, for a number of years we had our annual “count the number of kids graduating with general honors” data, but I don’t think anyone did it this year. For what it’s worth, about 60% of the classes of 2009 and 2011 graduated with general honors, meaning their overall GPA was 3.25 or higher (i.e., B+). That seems pretty consistent with a median GPA of 3.35; it doesn’t look like grades have moved that much higher since 2006. I also think that fourth years get better grades than first years, which is why first and second years may not feel like they go to a college where the median grade is a high B+.</p>
<p>Also, there are some courses/professors who reserve As for very high-quality work. One of my SOSC instructors said she only gave As for essays in which she learned something new from the student’s work. She didn’t give out very many C’s, though. I’ve also heard of a few upper-level (bio classes at least) in which only 4-5 students out of the entire class will get an A. So, while there really isn’t grade deflation in the sense that you can work hard and get a C+, it might seem like there isn’t inflation because you need to be truly exceptional to get an A. This really does depend on the professor, however, so I’m sure there are many upper-level classes in which more students get As.</p>