<p>My daughter has decided to add two more applications, both to schools where submitting SATs is optional. We're trying to figure out whether or not she should send her test scores.</p>
<p>One of these schools has had optional SATs for several years and claims that last year 40% of applicants didn't submit them (no word on how many of those were accepted. :) ) The other just made submitting SATs optional this year. Neither school requires SAT II's. </p>
<p>In both cases, her GPA is exactly at the school's median for enrolled freshmen. She has had a fairly strong high school curriculum in everything except science. Her grades in math are her GPA sore point, no failing grades, but two C's over the last 3-1/2 years. On the SAT's, her reading and writing scores are towards the top of the school's 25-75th percentile (but not over it), but her math scores are just below the 25th percentile at one school, and just above the 25th percentile at the other. She has OK EC's, but nothing outstanding or remarkable to set her apart from the pack. </p>
<p>One school has a 45% RD admit rate, the other a 65% RD admit rate.</p>
<p>My gut is if she submits the test scores, the math would be a negative, but she feels that her strong writing/reading scores may help her a bit, especially as she is not applying for science/math oriented major and both schools emphasize that they pay particular attention to writing ability in admissions decisions. </p>
<p>Anyone have any thoughts/insights/advice on whether she should submit her test scores? I'd particularly like to hear from parents/kids who have applied to SAT optional schools in the past concerning how they decided whether or not to submit SATs, but all opinions are welcome.</p>
<p>Yes, Carolyn, I have it straight from an ad rep at a small LAC in the northeast where SATs are optional. When I asked the direct question, this is what he said. I'll paraphrase:</p>
<p>He told me the average SAT combined for this year's admitted students and said if D's SATs were at or above that, submit them. If they were below, don't. I then asked if the reason was because the school publishes the average and lower scores would obviously affect that. He said, yes, that was exactly the reason. The lower scores would affect the admit for a student because admitting them with SAT scores could negatively affect the avg, but if not submitted the student would look better! He readily admitted that they would probably love to have D as a student based upon all other stats I provided. We had yet to have her scores in hand at the time of the conversation, so that was his advice. Avg or above, submit. Lower, omit.</p>
<p>So in Carolyn's D's case when math is under and verbal/writing at, what do you do?</p>
<p>I'd be inclined not to submit - after all, this is an option they endorse.
Her strong writing will come out in her essays and show up in her English grades.</p>
<p>I think baseballmom's point - and the point of the AdRep she met - is that the published combined score is very important to the school, as it is used in rankings, published in guidebooks etc. etc. Anyone whose combined score will bring down the average is at a disadvantage. True, V and M scores are often published separately, too, but the combined is what they're focusing on in this instance.</p>
<p>What this highlights is that the SAT score serves not just as a way to evaluate the student, but as a future stat on which the school, itself, will be evaluated. These schools have committed to evaluating each applicant without any need for the SAT; its use in later ranking the school becomes that much more important to them.</p>
<p>Thanks, that helps a bit. Her combined score (reading and math) is within the combined range of both schools, even though her math score itself is at/below the 25th percentile for math. So, maybe I should just let her follow her own judgement on this one. (Getting easier to do that as Mom gets wearier) But, keep the comments coming as they really have helped so far.</p>
<p>I've never had a kid apply to an SAT optional school, and I really don't know exactly the right thing, but I think I would be tempted to send them to the school where the math score is just above the 25th and leave the scores off the record at the school where the math score is just below the 25th. I do suspect that her writing ability is going to be the key factor for admissions, so I don't think it would hurt to send them to at least the one school.
Her strengths and areas of no interest are AMAZINGLY like S2!!</p>
<p>carolyn - based on what baseballmom reported, can you find the <em>average</em> SAT (not 25/75) and make the decision on that basis - since this is what the adrep recommended?</p>
<p>Well, I'm no expert but I'd be inclined to withhold them unless the combined score was also at the upper end of the range. She doesn't need them and they don't really help.</p>
<p>But I also agree with the sentiment that you should voice your opinion but let her follow her own judgment -- especially as she already has been accepted at a safety. This is, after all, her application - and it isn't really an exact science.</p>
<p>Carolyn,
The ad rep knew the exact avg combined score and quoted that to me and did not refer to the range, so it's worth a call to see if they'll share that number. I can't help but think that SAT optional schools adopt this policy solely to boost their published scores and appearance of selectivity. In the case of the LAC I'm referring to, they discussed in their info session that they feel there is no correlation between SAT scores and college success. They are looking for quality students, that's the bottom line.</p>
<p>I have to admit it was refreshing to hear this on the heels of our WM & Mary and Washington & Lee visits where they were happy to point out how many perfect SAT scorers they rejected.</p>
<p>will the sat scores appear on the transcript sent by the gc's office to the schools? (i think some hs's automatically include this info) if so, is it possible that this would be enough to allow them to see the score that would help her without them having to officially count her scores in their tallies? or do sat optional schools just ignore such info if not "officially" submitted?</p>
<p>Carolyn, it sounds as though your daughter will rise or fall on her strengths other than the SAT; well-prepared apps to the two additional schools should do more to further her case than the somewhat iffy SAT scores (even allowing for the relatively strong verbal and writing). But if she feels strongly about sumitting it may not be worth a family struggle.</p>
<p>I also agree with baseballmom regarding college rankings and SAT scores. If you look at the 25-75 range SAT scores at Bowdoin and Middlebury for example you will see that they are astronomically high, but SATs are optional at both schools and it has never been clear to me that the scores of all admitted students, including those who did not submit their scores for admission purposes, were used to achieve these high ranges (I know some posters on CC say they are used but I still am not convinced). (My children did both apply to one or two SAT-optional schools and did submit their SATs, which were in both cases above the 75% number and were clearly beneficial, so not really a useful point of comparison I guess.)</p>
<p>I will tell you our experience. My S applied to one SAT optional school. It was made clear to my S during his interview that the scores are still very important to them. He was asked what his SAT scores were as part of his interview! That could throw off many applicants who are not yet aware that the school is sat optional, or are undecided about submitting! My S is submitting, and his #s are benificial for him to submit, so there was no problem in their asking during his interview. The sat scores still get published in the college guides. I guess it is good to think about how to answer if an interviewer asks you your sat scores, and you are not submitting at an sat optional school!!</p>
<p>I should add that as a followup to the adrep, I told him we'd already included their school on the list of schools on the SAT app. He said that although scores would be sent to them due to the app, the scores would only be considered as submitted if D officially submitted scores with her app! At this school at least, this was 100% about published admit scores!</p>
<p>Don't schools publish the averages for math and verbal (or cr or whatever they call it) SAT tests separately? If so, and they care about averages, that would argue for not submitting. I was going to suggest submitting verbal score only, but I know you can't do that.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone. After I printed this out and let her read it, my D. decided that she'll just go the SAT optional route at these two schools and see what happened. When she looked at the supplement to the common app. for one of the schools, she noticed that they require a graded school writing assignment, so she feels that will add some info. on her writing. She is also going to ask her AP English teacher to write the second recommendation for the school that requires two recommendations and will tell her to stress info. on her writing. She is also considering just using the AP English teacher rec instead of the French teacher rec. she sent to all her other schools, for the second school.</p>