A group called UChicago United has posted a list of demands. According to Campus Reform:
Doesn’t “ultimatum” imply an “or else” action? What are they planning to do if their list of demands isn’t met?
Perhaps they can threaten to attend University of MN, which DOES include something like “diversity and inclusion” in its gen. ed. requirements.
Agree with the above - and what are they going to do if their demands are not meet? You can’t demand change but you can work to bring it about.
First of all, if people are going to discuss these demands here, let’s use the actual text of the demands - not a few carefully chosen quotes from a writer with an agenda.
Second, this has caused something of a stir on campus, and I’ve got too much work to get sucked into a long debate right now, so I’m going to say my piece and stay offline for a while.
While some demands are being made by every group in the coalition, others are being made by a specific organization. I would imagine these are ideas that didn’t get buy-in from every group, so it makes sense that these may go further at times - for better or worse.
As a result, some of the demands on this list are deeply impractical, due to the way higher education and our administration are set up - stuff like creating several new majors in areas where student demand appears limited, or splitting existing departments into 4-5 whose work overlaps. Others would put the university at risk legally (for instance, if opt-in black student housing is less well-maintained than other dorms, even for innocuous reasons). The administration isn’t going to bypass its normal decision-making process, or expose itself to legal action. They also happen to be pinching pennies right now. In short, these demands will mostly go nowhere.
Other demands on this list are responses to serious issues that the administration could solve with a modicum of time, effort, and money. I can’t speak to the experience of Black/Latinx/Arab/Asian students on campus, but it seems like these would change that experience in positive and meaningful ways.
As for the idea of a 4-page laundry list of demands, it may or may not be the best way to effect change. I don’t know what goes on inside President Zimmer’s head, so I can’t tell you that.
Finally, these are largely student-oriented demands, and if members of the neighboring communities had been a part of the drafting process, this list might include more - or different - proposals.
I’m not going to type up a 4-page response detailing my views on every demand, but I urge anyone commenting on this to keep the above in mind. Please avoid the less-enlightened CC approach - namely, quoting a few extreme demands as an excuse to dismiss the entire list, leaving out necessary context, and hurling accusations of racism and reverse racism back and forth. Hopefully, steering clear of these tactics will lead to a more productive conversation.
“Please avoid the less-enlightened CC approach - namely, quoting a few extreme demands as an excuse to dismiss the entire list, leaving out necessary context, and hurling accusations of racism and reverse racism back and forth. Hopefully, steering clear of these tactics will lead to a more productive conversation.”
Nice detailed post, @DunBoyer . However, with those final thoughts I would be shocked if there is any further conversation at all! 
- Seems to me that "necessary context" would need to be provided first by those issuing demands in order for everyone to truly understand the issues. Absent that, pretty much every post is going to end up leaving out "necessary context".
- asking for restrictions on the CC conversation is itself unenlightened and unproductive, IMHO. How about just skipping what you don't like and don't feel like responding to?
@DunBoyer - I originally posted the link that you did, but realized that it likely violated the TOS due to CC automatically replacing the google doc link with ****, so I removed it from my original post.
In any case, the article linked has a direct link to the demands.
They are not even a real Uchicago organization. I looked up Pan-Asian one of the constituent groups and they are not a recognized student organization nor are they a group of the individual Asian organizations. The umbrella org is the Asian Student Union. There are smaller groups based on ethnicity/nationality catered to Filipinos, Singaporeans and Malaysians, Taiwanese, etc.
Pan-Asian in contrast is a nationwide group which seems to me look more like an activist/agitator/anarchist group trying to make it look like they are active in UChicago or that they have real membership there.
Since they dont officially represent anyone, really, I doubt that these “demands” are going anywhere.
@FStratford interesting. Do we know to what extent the groups presenting these demands are even students at UChicago?
These are students all right.
https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2017/5/23/students-protest-fiji-present-petition-demand-rall/
I think I may have walked past the rally as it was happening. It looked bigger than 50 students - though definitely under 100.
This specific mobilization was prompted (in part) by a frat that had a fantastic idea: they decided to hold a construction-themed party on Cinco de Mayo (one post in the event page, which garnered a decent number of likes: “What’s the moustache policy for tonight? Asking for an amigo”). When concerned Latino students got in touch, they changed the FB event to 12:00 (because, hey, that’s technically May 6th), promised to scrap the construction-worker costumes, and threw a construction-themed party (costumes and all) anyway. What could go wrong?
A lot, as it turns out. Even other greek organizations are distancing themselves from FIJI.
The point is, outside activists could care less. There are lots of non-RSO groups at UChicago. Let’s leave scapegoating of “outside agitators” for another day.
If the frat did something wrong than the frat needs to pay the consequences, changing the curriculum seems way over the top. A) I doubt any of the frat members would take any of the suggested courses. B) you can’t “teach” this out of them.
Whoever these 50 students are, demanding segregated housing reflects poorly on them. Outside agitators are a big part of this whole thing, and the puppet masters pulling the strings need to be exposed.
Isn’t one of the first demands that the greek system be RSO? Perhaps it’s not now. As a school that respects free association, UChicago is going to say what separately-affiliated frat boys do on CdeM is really not the school’s business. Is it reasonable to demand that UChicago peek into our private parties and start doling out consequences for such? LOL.
I don’t know how exactly the demands are being received by the rest of the school (there’s a lot of shit on UChicago Secrets but that page is terrible and poor representation of the college) but I can tell you that the incoming First Years generally aren’t so fond of it. There’s been quite a bit of heated discussion with some current First Years coming in to defend it too and even the president of College Republicans putting a plug for their RSO after seeing the discussion.
Without going into the specifics, my personal view is that while these demands reflect some very real problems that need to be addressed, I think they are a quite poorly thought out as a way of actually getting these problems resolved. There’s a whole spectrum ranging from stuff that you’d be hard pressed to find a reason for not already being the case, to stuff that seem good in theory but run into real practical problems, to stuff that’s straight up antithetical to the university and would worsen the problems instead. But really the main thing that gets people is the language that it’s presented in (with the constant use of the word demands). I think that the problems definitely need addressing, but they more well thought out and constructive plans of action for them to really work.
Apparently the people behind the demands are holding a town hall regarding the demands and issues people have with it. That’s a good step and I wish I could be there. Hopefully there’ll be some productive discussion and better understanding of both sides that leads to a real and more effective approach to the problem
@CU123 One of the demands was inclusion of a class on gender/race related issues in the core requirements. I’m personally against the idea, but that’s certainly one way to address your complaint A).
As for the question of whether this is a proportionate response, these demands are a response to far more than the FIJI party - this just happens to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. Although I don’t agree with many of the proposed changes to the curriculum, several of which are likely to produce administrative bloat and create underenrolled classes, I do want that to be quite clear.
@FStratford First of all, this is about more than 50-100 students at a rally. As of this post, 162 students have signed the accompanying petition.
Second, while I agree that opt-in Black housing is a bad idea, that demand comes from Organization of Black Students (OBS). It isn’t endorsed by other groups in this coalition, who are publicly neither for nor against the idea.
Finally, I don’t know of any facts to support claims about “outside agitators” and “puppet masters” in this incident. Do you have a source for this?
@JBStillFlying Some things that have happened at UChicago frats over the years:
- Phi Delt hazing ritual includes drinking copious amounts of alcohol (dumb but hardly unusual) and, if you believe the lawsuit, beating a pledge. If you're skeptical, the second Maroon article is still a litany of awful decisions. https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2016/7/19/student-sues-phi-delt-alleges-hazing-assault/ https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2016/10/4/induction-night-phi-delt-pledges-served-copious-am/
-UChicago makes national news! That’s good, right? Nope - AePi is joking about celebrating MLK day with fried chicken, calling C4 and dynamite “long-held fixtures” of Islamic culture, titling e-mails “Towel heads,” and more. They also, for good measure, call a Muslim student government leader a “terrorist”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-university-of-chicago-racist-emails-met-20160211-story.html
http://time.com/4208215/racist-emails-alpha-epsilon-pi-university-chicago/
-Shortly after several Alpha Delt brothers wear oversized sombreros, and manage to tick off half the student body as a result, some genius at Delta Upsilon decides to throw a “Conquistadors and Aztec hoes” party.
http://chicagoist.com/2012/05/29/u_of_c_frat_in_trouble_for_conquist.php
It’s hard to deny the binge drinking described in the first article (and sexual assaults, often unreported - another highlight at certain fraternities) doesn’t pose a threat to student safety. Regardless of any racist conduct or lack thereof, these things warrant greater university oversight, but the administration would rather limit its liability than protect students. Why not take a stance similar to Harvard’s view on finals clubs? Exclude students in unaffiliated frats from leadership roles, and step up oversight of those with RSO status.
As for the “private citizen” defense, fraternities are private entities, free to organize any party they want, but the university is also private, and free to make certain privileges contingent on rules designed to protect the community. Non-students have been banned from campus for engaging in “free speech” before - notable targets include a group of prosyletizers known as the Revolutionary Communists and a number of local activists. While campus bans aren’t feasible for a current student, other penalties certainly are. If they don’t like it, students are quite free to attend a public university, where their right to host racist parties and besmirch the school’s reputation without official consequences will be absolute.
Sex assault is a felony and anyone who chooses not to report a felony is doing the community a huge disservice. Anyone who is convicted of a felony should be expelled forthwith (and guessing that happens). If the degree has been earned prior to the conviction it should be revoked. But unless it’s reported, it’s an injustice to punish a group of citizens and students who have committed no crime. And yes, unless they are charged and convicted, you can’t know whether they have committed a crime, despite your allegations.
My kid has been counseled on how to avoid being in situations where such felonies can easily occur. That doesn’t eliminate the risk, but it lowers it significantly. No one is obligated to attend a party where they feel there is high risk of felonious behavior to occur.
Parties with an-allegedly insensitive theme are just that. They are neither illegal nor are they immoral according to all views. One person’s fun Mexican-themed party is another person’s cultural appropriation. Do people really expect the university to micro-manage these issues? According to whose point of view? Don’t forget, too, that in the name of justice you really have to monitor the following additional events due to the problematic ways they are commonly celebrated and/or fears of appropriation or conflicting messaging: Oktoberfest, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Valentine’s, St. Pat’s, Mardi-Gras, and Easter. As a university community, is it really necessary to go that route?
Frankly, I’m quite surprised that the court of public opinion - that is, members of the student body - can’t condemn the truly offensive behavior by refusing to associate with it and with those who allegedly perpetuate it. Perhaps the source of this confusion is that not everyone in the student body agrees on whether the behavior is as offensive as you are stating. Perhaps that’s why some groups are taking the (unfortunately) not-so-extraordinary step of demanding that the University of Chicago devote resources to protecting - and ENFORCING - their specific point of view.
As a private uni, UChicago can certainly go the Harvard route. But that’s a pretty significant departure from it’s core principles.
Your last statement - somehow advocating that certain offensive students be treated similarly to outside groups - just makes no sense. The university has no obligation to those outside groups in the slightest, as you know, and can act on those as it chooses for the good of the entire university community. To demote select students to the status of “outsider” would be a gross violation of the principles that have guided the university’s relationship with its students for decades now. Let’s leave the “outsiders” outside the realm of the discussion - BOTH sides of the discussion. If we are to respect the legitimate student issues prompting these demands, then let’s also advocate for outcomes that adhere to the special relationship between the university and its student body on the fundamental matters of speech, expression, and association.
In cases where someone is convicted of sexual assault, of course they’ll be expelled. That’s not the issue. Many victims (some estimates peg the number at 2 out of 3) decline to report assaults because of one obstacle or another. One (among many) is a lack of trust in the university process. The university was under investigation for Title IX violations not too long ago (see: https://www.chicagomaroon.com/2014/02/11/university-under-federal-investigation-for-sexual-assault-policy/), and RSVP (Resources for Sexual Violence Prevention) remains woefully understaffed and underfunded.
This is only the latest stage in a long and troubled history for UChicago (see: https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2017/5/1/special-problem-university-chicagos-troubled-histo/), and while the administration certainly doesn’t want students to be assaulted, they’ve put budget and liability concerns first. If you don’t believe you’ll get a fair hearing, why go through the ordeal of the university process? Many victims don’t. This isn’t very effective in catching perpetrators, of course, but it can be a very reasonable choice for any individual.
The easiest solution is to prevent assaults in the first place, and that’s where the university could do more. Right now, sexual violence prevention is entirely in the hands of fraternity members, and compliance with fraternities’ prevention policy is uneven at best (for instance, multiple students reported violations of this policy during the now-infamous FIJI party). As a private university, UChicago has considerable latitude in regulating fraternities, and could force more stringent prevention efforts on fraternities tomorrow if the administration was interested in doing so. Instead, we’re left with self-regulation, and a real sexual assault problem.
@DunBoyer - you are a bit confused. If a felony has been committed you don’t need to worry about informing the university. You inform the police. You go to the hospital, you say you have been sexually assaulted, you make a statement including the name and/or description of the perp(s), the location, the time, etc. And you let them do their jobs. If there truly is a rash of assaults upon the female university students (funny - haven’t seen this one covered by parents discussing safety . . ) then it needs to be addressed through the proper parties. If not, it simply can’t be judged as anything else other than opinion or hearsay or gossip. There have been plenty of examples of wrongly accused students (many of whom have sued their universities for making unfounded and unjust judgements against them).
If some frats truly have a rape culture, there is a simple way to fix that through refusing to associate with those parties. Boycott the event. Protest and call the press. Exercise your right to speak out against the culture. Shine the light of day on what’s happening. As long as students are continuing to attend these parties, they are contributing to that rape culture.
That is, assuming there truly IS a rape culture. You see, it’s kind of hard to know, given that no one apparently feels like calling the cops. Odd.
Now, let’s suppose the university decides to get tough with the Greek system and mandates RSO status. What will happen? The frat will fold, the members will move to another location and hold the same parties, this time under completely private auspices. What will the university do then?
The students are smart enough - and should be mature enough - to put on their Big Boy pants and fix this issue themselves.
It’s rarely that simple. While it would be wonderful if every victim of sexual assault went to the police, and this prompted a timely and thorough investigation followed by an accurate verdict in court, there are few jurisdictions in this country where that’s the case. The process is far from perfect, and this (as well as other factors, such as pressure from friends/family - since most people know their abuser - and the grueling demands of a trial) leads to 80% of assaults going unreported (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/19/study-sexual-assaults-greatly-underreported-/3648197/).
First of all, as above, most assaults go unreported. Second, the parents on this forum are a very limited cross-section of the university as a whole, and I’d be surprised if any parent felt the urge to share a story like this with random strangers at a university event. Third, the university does everything it can to limit access to statistics and other information on this issue, because there is such a thing as bad publicity. Most discussions of safety focus on the surrounding neighborhoods, not sexual assault, because it’s easier to spot a “shady” (which for many people means “black”) person than a victim of sexual assault. This is largely an invisible problem. By the time most of a university community knows about issues like this, the damage has generally been done.
According to the Department of Education, a school/university is absolutely one of those parties. The Dear Colleague letter (https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201104.pdf) directed educational institutions to create a disciplinary process separate from any police investigation. That’s a good thing - it means the university can separate students (especially dorm/housemates), impose no-contact orders, and take other steps designed to protect both parties, instead of having them interact repeatedly while a police investigation runs its course. The lower burden of evidence involved in this process is a riskier step, and the university process should absolutely happen in addition to (and not instead of) a professional investigation by the police, but there are actions (for instance, moving a perpetrator from their dorm) that the police can’t order a university to pursue. Creating a formal process to judge whether such actions are appropriate, instead of doing whatever an administrator is in the mood for, is a big step forward.
This is a perception furthered by the media, but the numbers say otherwise. An update to the literature on this topic found that 2-8% of accusations are false (http://ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf). Meanwhile, 80% of assaults go unreported. Which is the greater problem?
So the onus is on the victims to make their ordeals an extremely public experience, and open themselves up to snap judgments by every student on campus?
Or are you blaming victims, and only victims, for assaults that go unreported?
Many students do just this, and avoid certain frats, but a fraternity’s reputation is not evidence admissible in court. The testimony of an independent sober monitor absolutely is. The system you’re happy to maintain gives us one, but not the other.
Even in those cases when people attend a frat party anyway, “He/she/they knew this frat had a rape culture” is never a reason to ignore sexual assault.
If a frat decides limited university oversight is an undue burden, that doesn’t sound like the kind of frat a university wants near its campus. Denying them the “Greek life” label will hamper recruitment, and the university has the power to limit access to leadership roles for any student who remains a member. If refusing vaccinations puts the community at risk and justifies exclusion from campus, joining an organization that rejects basic safety protocols isn’t that different; it also puts others at risk, and should be discouraged.
I’m sure victims of sexual assault appreciate the advice.
“So the onus is on the victims to make their ordeals an extremely public experience, and open themselves up to snap judgments by every student on campus?”
- Um, yes. To the extent that it's reported to the police. As is the case for any felony.
Or are you blaming victims, and only victims, for assaults that go unreported?
- Nope, my good young person, I'm blaming YOU and your buddies in the student body, to the extent that all of you enable the "rape culture" by choosing not to shine your own light squarely on the individuals involved (assuming there are genuine offenses), then whining that the university "must do something". For all your statistics - whether they be accurate or subject to perceptions or interpretations - crime is, in fact, lessened once the criminals are busted.
“Many students do just this, and avoid certain frats, but a fraternity’s reputation is not evidence admissible in court. The testimony of an independent sober monitor absolutely is. The system you’re happy to maintain gives us one, but not the other.”
- No and it shouldn't have to get to court. If everyone avoids the frat because they don't like the way they are being treated there, then no one comes to the party and no rape culture. Problem solved. IF lots of kids are still going - including potential victims of the "rape culture", then I for one highly question the authenticity of a genuine "rape culture" in the first place, as do many, many others. Hence the demands for the university to 'do somehting' - because there just isn't agreement among the students themselves that this is a real problem.
“Even in those cases when people attend a frat party anyway, “He/she/they knew this frat had a rape culture” is never a reason to ignore sexual assault”.
- Are you ignoring the crime of mugging when you decide NOT to wander around Hyde Park by yourself at 2 am? Are you ignoring the crime of theft when you make sure to take your valuables with you when you leave the Reg to grab a coffee? Or are you just being smart in those cases?
Be careful because it really does appear that the demanders just have it in for the frats. Obviously not well liked by certain groups, while still being the party place on Sat. Night. I can see that frats haven’t changed since my day, and my mother’s college days LOL.
“If a frat decides limited university oversight is an undue burden, that doesn’t sound like the kind of frat a university wants near its campus. Denying them the “Greek life” label will hamper recruitment, and the university has the power to limit access to leadership roles for any student who remains a member. If refusing vaccinations puts the community at risk and justifies exclusion from campus, joining an organization that rejects basic safety protocols isn’t that different; it also puts others at risk, and should be discouraged.”
- Ah - the Harvard approach yet again - advocating that the university restrict association in order to remain a student in good standing. See my previous comments on that tactic. And there is a bit of difference between getting an air-borne disease and CHOOSING to attend the frat party. LOL.
“I’m sure victims of sexual assault appreciate the advice.”
- According to your posts, "victims of sexual assault" seem to have no friends at the University of Chicago. They are so devastated and ashamed of what happened to them without their control or consent and so frightened as the strong prospect of losing their social set because of that horrendous offense against them that the school has to step in for them. There is a shadowy secret shame enveloping the university on this issue - despite the atrocity of the felonious behavior, the police can do nothing. The university must step in and resolve it.
Now, be honest, @DunBoyer - is this truly the environment at UChicago? Because that sounds like a real problem. How come, for instance, we haven’t heard more about this on College Confidential?
Edit the above^^ to add: How come we haven’t heard more about this from OTHER PARENTS?
Interesting to follow these two sides of the argument. I agree with @JBStillFlying that the response to social ills at college should not generally be to pressure the administration (a strategy that is popular in part because of the customer status students enjoy at contemporary universities). On the other hand, the dismissal of victims of sexual abuse and the attitude that if you’re smart you’ll just stay away from places that are dangerous leaves little room for societal improvement. As an analogy, if your answer to the conditions on the South Side is to just stay away from the South Side, then how will it ever change? Isn’t it appropriate to try to change conditions? And I may be biased against frats, but I find it completely appropriate to expose the misogynistic and bigoted ways of those frats who engage in them. Yes, there is, indeed, something like rape culture. And as a parent, I am not in a great place to judge how present it is at UChicago specifically, but I would not presume that it doesn’t exist there. One place I would start is to look at what benefits frats have that maybe they shouldn’t. Are they exempt from paying property taxes on their houses, for example? Overall, I don’t agree with what I have seen of the demands, and I don’t agree that the University administration is responsible for what goes on in frats. However, I applaud those who pursue change, who expose racism and rape culture, who bring light to shady places.