S18 is considering applying but we are quite concerned about news such as this:
I’m no epidemiologist or mental health expert but 14 suicides in 4 years strikes me as quite high.
Anyone have any insights into what’s going on and how the school is handing this?
The school sent out a notice to all parents and members of the community. Later his high achool mentioned that he suffered a long battle with depression. There had only been three days of classes when this occurred. I dont attribute this to Penn, but rather, to mental illness. But I agree, 14 suicides ( undergrads and grads) is way too many. The pressure on kids today is overwhelming.
Sadly, that number doesn’t strike me as being unusual. Suicide is distressingly common in this age bracket. I lost my 20-year-old nephew to suicide. He was a senior at Butler University, an incredibly nurturing school.
Mental illness is horrible. 
This is an epidemic across the country middle school and up. I live in a rural area and I can think of two high schoolers we lost last year in the county and there were probably others I don’t know about. This is a pretty idyllic place for kids, very supportive collaborative learning environments, caring teachers, not a lot of keeping up with the Jones. A good time is usually just chucking a few logs of wood together for a bonfire. The schools have been advised not to suspend school or hold large memorials for fear of encouraging additional suicides. OSU students are well aware of classmates who end their lives there as well, it’s the leading cause of death for college/university aged people. They have a suicide prevention office http://suicideprevention.osu.edu/ and hold seminars to train students to spot issues and Dr. Drake is really promoting student mental health and expanding services because of a large growth in demand. The university is trying to shift the intervention bar for mental health from suicidal (which is dangerous) to not my best (taking corrective actions and getting strategies as soon as students feel unwell/ unfocused/ unhappy/ disconnected so they don’t fall into a deep depression).
@pantha33m
While it is definitely an issue, it is sadly not that different from other similarly rigorous top schools. There is definitely an epidemic going on across college campuses. Also remember Penn has a bigger class size than most other top schools. For example at Columbia there were 7 suicides in the past academic year alone. https://thetab.com/us/columbia/2017/05/10/columbia-mental-health-4817?utm_source=professionalxpost&utm_medium=national&utm_campaign=xpost
That said, Penn is not for everyone and applicants should know this. Penn is going to be stressful and hectic and it is a relatively big school in a big city and students are definitely not coddled. Also Penn students are very competitive, not with each other, but with themselves. They are actually very helpful towards one another, but they constantly push themselves to excel at school, get top internship and research positions, get leadership positions on campus, and have an active social life. So this might be too much for some people. I am not saying all students on campus are like that, but there is a big element of what i just described.
Many people enjoy Penn’s fast-paced and rigorous environment and thrive there, others would not fit in at all. Also Penn has a big social aspect to it which kind of balances out the academic pressure in my opinion, but again it all depends on the individual.
The administration has started doing small things here and there but they should be doing way much more regardless. I for one think they should decrease the class size by a little bit and get rid of weed out courses that destroy the GPAs of many STEM freshmen.
How would they do this without “watering down” the courses.
News mentioned that the student was a mathematics and economics major, the degree requires half of the class
from math dept. and half from econ. It is an extremely demanding program, the stress built up is incredible. Just feel so sorry to hear this.
My S lost friend to suicide early in the year. D lost friend 3 months later also to suicide. Very sad and worrisome.
@TomSrOfBoston maybe get rid of was not the best word, I meant ease up a bit on the grades for intro classes. It is not too uncommon for intro science classes to be curved at a B- or even C+ sometimes. When you are in a class of already very accomplished and studious people, this places an insane burden on students.
Also the guy in question had a very long battle with depression. I personally would not recommend any elite school (and especially bigger, urban, elite schools known for being fast-paced and intense) for people who have had well-documented and serious struggles with depression. It is too much of a pressure-cooker environment.
It is gut wrenching to learn about the death of any young adult and depression is especially difficult to understand when an individual obviously has wonderful accomplishments, a bright future and is beloved by their family and school community. Data shows that college students have about half the suicide rate of their non-enrolled peers.
https://nndc.org/perspectives-on-college-student-suicide/
My thoughts and prayers are for family members and the student community of friends and fraternity brothers.
Curves for weed out courses are difficult but likely necessary to ensure students are enrolled majors they are proficient at early in their college careers. Waiting till junior year to weed out students in difficult majors would be cruel and even more stressful. It is not a surprise that Penn’s chemistry department weeds out both SEAS and premed students. Curves in core STEM courses are not new at any institution, the only change is a very high freshman retention rate with students migrating to other majors instead of dropping out/transferring. Gone are the days of look left and right; only 2 out of 3 of you will be here by the end of the year.
@Penn95 This is the issue, not Penn’s grading. Depression is real and a student battling depression before college should take great care in his/her choice. If it rises during college, transfer should be an option.
Individuals often hide a history of depression when enlisting in the military. Different type of pressure cooker but often same sad results.
Please, to anyone reading with thoughts of suicide, reach out for help.
I’m so sorry to hear about this, and I agree with @Penn95 comments. What frustrates me, however, is that top schools themselves never discuss how - as a collective group - they are complicit in this. Top schools are all competing intensely with each other, and using all sorts of tactics that only amp up the pressure for applicants and students.
Moreover, schools are often slow in providing resources for the problem. Harvard, for instance, got a $400M grant for the engineering school. Imagine what even 20% of that donation could do for student life/student health.
Really sad, and unfortunately one suicide tends to lead toward more (Wherther effect). Any number of suicides is definitely a problem and as mentioned before the class size increases the raw numbers.
Penn does have a ton of resources for this kind of prevention, but not many students are aware; however, I’m sure administration has been upping that effort. They offer free therapists and counseling through CAPS for anyone wondering what the options are: https://www.vpul.upenn.edu/caps/
It is really sad to know this. Nicolas is definitely an ambitious young man with unlimited potentials. But he was consistently suffering from severe depression. He might not fit the pressure-cooker environment (mentioned by Penn95) that actually exists in most (if not all) elite schools. Penn indeed has done a lots for the issue.
“What frustrates me, however, is that top schools themselves never discuss how - as a collective group - they are complicit in this. Top schools are all competing intensely with each other, and using all sorts of tactics that only amp up the pressure for applicants and students.”
Honestly, what frustrates me is family’s role in creating beliefs that equate to “Ivy or bust!”. I think a lot of the pressure on young people stems from family expectations more than higher ed institutions. This collective, societal push for “only the best will do” creates a lot of the intensity. Our kids should know they’ll be fine wherever they go, whatever they do even if that means not participating in the rat race. You don’t need UPenn, any Ivy, even med school to be a happy and engaged member of society. Help your child find the right fit, especially if there is a history of mental illness.
I feel like placing this in the laps of colleges and universities is a bit of scapegoating.
Totally agree with @doschicos. Students’ own background may take a big role in this itself. Many of the top overachievers may have well started their own stressful/pressure cooker environment themselves. Lots of highly competitive magnet public schools/top private high schools have students with a student culture of depriving the sleep to reach the high stats that top colleges want, probably due to family expectation and peer pressure. Long term lack of sleep and relax would likely result of mood swing similar to depression. Once people develop their routine habits, it is hard to reverse back to a normal life. Adults and students need to think the trade off quality life vs dream life early on before too late.
@Cue7 What is your evidence that Harvard and other schools aren’t also providing amazing resources for students? Yes, it’s a different era but Harvard has provided more academic and social guidance to my freshman daughter in four weeks than my state school provided to me in four years. I can speak first hand about the resources the military has provided to prevent suicide for over a decade and yet it is still a problem.
Sometimes resources aren’t enough. If the situation isn’t right for a student, the student needs to transfer. Depression is a complicated medical condition. Rick Warren, Southern CA pastor, provided the best resources money could buy to his adult son who battled with depression and yet his son still suicided (few years ago, forget exact timeline).
Reducing the stigma to getting help is one of the biggest battles and that is as much societal as it is to a Top 20 school, although there may be self-imposed stigma among high performing students.
Agreed. I give kudos to most colleges which have greatly ramped up the mental health resources on campuses in the past decade. The demand is staggering and at times overwhelming. Colleges didn’t create this issue - students often arrive on campus with depression/anxiety already or they develop them once there for reasons not connected to the college (the age range plays a role for sure). Good for the colleges for recognizing it and providing basic supports. It is a huge financial burden to the schools to do so and doesn’t replace more long-term care. If students need more than a handful of sessions with a counselor, in my opinion, they should be looking outside of the campus structure to source it. I’m not unsympathetic to the issue and I think it is an important issue that needs focus but colleges are in the education business not the mental health business. We should look to our health care structure and ask what can be done to improve and increase resources for those needing mental health services. ACA was a step in the right direction on this front but it is under attack. Dismantling the mental health protections and coverage currently under ACA would leave a big hole. If one is concerned about mental health in this country, I feel your energies would be better spent talking to your government representatives than looking to higher ed for a fix.
“ACA was a step in the right direction on this front but it is under attack. Dismantling the mental health protections and coverage currently under ACA would leave a big hole. If one is concerned about mental health in this country, I feel your energies would be better spent talking to your government representatives than looking to higher ed for a fix.”
Agree 100% doschicos.