<p>"officers counseling the men and women under them "</p>
<p>This is a great approach to the discussion. Well done!!!</p>
<p>Appeal</a> to tradition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>Prayer belongs in churches/synagogues and religious institutions. USNA is not a religious institution.</p>
<p>The en masse "prayer" before a meal is not voluntary to those that do not want to listen to it.</p>
<p>Why does it have to be "public?" What purpose does it to make it "public?" </p>
<p>In some things the burdens outweigh the benefit. The burden of judgment and humiliation on those that do not "partake" IMHO outweighs the benefit of any "publicity"</p>
<p>No one is precluding an individual from privately praying before their own meal. </p>
<p>I guarantee you, you would feel differently if the "Chaplain" were a Rabbi for the semester/year or an Inman or a religious figure from some "other" religion. Spend some time in the Middle East where prayer some 5 times a day is "voluntarily" played whether you want to listen or not. Where the religion of Islam is state sponsored. Maybe not today, but poke a hole with public school prayer and you erode the amendment to the constitution to calls for the SEPARATION of church and state.</p>
<p>Just wanted to provide a clippet from the USNA catalog that addresses this:
[quote]
Over the decades of our history, fighting Americans have learned by experience that there is a dimension to military leadership both in and out of combat that is essential to real effectiveness. This is the spiritual factor, the intangible quality we call moral courage...</p>
<p>While attendance at religious services is voluntary, midshipmen are reminded that as officers of the naval service, their personal beliefs will often be tested, and that in time of stress their subordinates will look to them for spiritual, as well as professional guidance. The Naval Academy has long believed that future officers owe it to themselves and to those they will lead to gain insights into moral, ethical and spiritual dimensions of military leadership. Further, we want to make sure our midshipmen understand the responsibilities they will have as officers in ensuring religious support for their Sailors and Marines no matter the nature of their beliefs. Not only do we want our midshipmen and young officers to respect the beliefs and practices of those who follow a different religion or hold beliefs different from their own, we want them to understand and embrace their need as officers to ensure their Sailors and Marines can attend services and receive religious support aboard ship or on the battlefield....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"amendment to the constitution to calls for the SEPARATION of church and state"</p>
<p>Really, I think it reads
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"</p>
<p>What I think you are talking about is a court opinion that has been debated for decades....</p>
<p>"I guarantee you, you would feel differently if the "Chaplain" were a Rabbi for the semester/year or an Inman or a religious figure from some "other" religion"</p>
<p>Actually Frequently in Military life you may be advised by a chaplain who is not of your faith, and I have recieved good counsel and advice by chaplains of many faiths. The academy has a Jewish and Muslim Chaplain on staff and also they have led prayers in King Hall meals.</p>
<p>"amendment to the constitution to calls for the SEPARATION of church and state"</p>
<p>Really, I think it reads
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"</p>
<p>What I think you are talking about is a court opinion that has been debated for decades....</p>
<p>I stand corrected...but it was Jefferson somewhere that did write the phrase "separation of church and state." Point duly noted. </p>
<p>The point is that IMHO state sponsored religion is intolerant of others of a different belief. I'd rather promote tolerance than intolerance. No one is preventing or precluding an individual from engaging in prayer at any time or any place. PUBLIC prayer if it is to be public belongs in the appropriate RELIGIOUS institution, not in a school, govenment building, courthouse etc. It's not a matter of just turning the other cheek and "get over it"</p>
<p>Actually Frequently in Military life you may be advised by a chaplain who is not of your faith, and I have recieved good counsel and advice by chaplains of many faiths. </p>
<p>If one "chooses" to obtain counsel and advise...that's another thing. If it is given without invitation, that is another. </p>
<p>I have no doubt that there are representatives at the USNA of many of the religions. The problem is that anyway you cut it, public prayer is a statement of state sponsored religion. It disregards those that do not believe as the speaker/invoker.</p>
<p>Why does it HAVE TO BE PUBLIC? Isn't the point to "prayer" a private and personal matter? I can see the "aid" that a collective of like minded individuals but again...go to Church/synagogue or whatever for the "collectiveness" What do you as a believer gain by forcing others to hear prayer that they may not agree with or want to listen to. It's a MILITARY academy...the primary focus is MILITARY, the secondary is EDUCATION.</p>
<p>I am a aethist, I don't believe there is a God.
I also believe that you should be able to pray if you like, it's all about faith. Who am i to say what your faith is, that's between you and god.</p>
<p>My wife believes, what gives me the right to say she can't pray at meals.
My son believes, what gives me the right to say he can't pray at meals.
My Daughter believes, what gives me the right to say she can't pray at meals.</p>
<p>Someone's faith should not be questioned by anyone other than themselves, who are you to judge them.</p>
<p>I don't judge anyone for believing, I do believe that faith is a great thing.</p>
<p>I have faith in myself, I have faith in my family, I have faith in my country.</p>
<p>I just don't believe in god. but that doesn't give me the right to remove it from your life. or anyone elses.</p>
<p>Believe me when I say my morals are just as good as any christians. The ten commandments are good rules to live by. Don't think that you are a better person than me because you have god in your life.</p>
<p>I do attend bible study with my family, and i have learned a lot about myself and my family. I want to learn what they believe and why?</p>
<p>before you start judging others, take a good look at yourself. why does it bother you so much that you can't allow others have thier beliefs?</p>
<p>Like i said, Faith is a wonderful thing. anything that makes a person better is always a wonderful thing.</p>
<p>I just don't have that relationship with god, I have faith in myself to do the right thing when needed.</p>
<p>Next thing you will want to remove is guns from the academy, because they kill people. </p>
<p>and don't get me started by saying we have to remove the American Flag because it offends people. Sorry, this is America.</p>
<p>Some of these fine midshipmen will be commissioned as Marine Officers. They will be on the ground under fire. They will be responsible for the welfare of their men in every situation. The United States Naval Academy is focused on training them to be military officers. These military officers had better be able to handle it when their men come to them for voluntary counsel. They better be prepared to honor and respect and dare we say, support their men when those men talk about their faith. If they are uncomfortable with the very thought of a voluntary noon meal prayer, then how in the world will they be able to support their men in battle in any faith issues. (and chaplains are not always around when a buddy goes down) It is not always what we are comfortable with that is required. The United States Naval Academy is preparing military officers. They know and have known for over 160 years that there is, and will remain a spiritual aspect to that. If the couple of mids who are disgruntled don't want that responsibility, then perhaps they should find a job when men and women won't be turning to them in times of difficulty. Not all professions have you repeat an Oath of Office that ends in "So help me God." So, if you don't like that, go find someplace that fits better. There is no seperating an officers role in the lives of his/her men, and that includes the spiritual. The Naval Academy must train them to be prepared to do just that. Respecting a voluntary noon meal is just one aspect of that training.</p>
<ol>
<li> Tradition precludes innovation.Appeal</a> to tradition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</li>
<li> WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE PUBLIC? No one is denying individual private prayer. If you believe, pray. If you don't pray, don't.<br></li>
<li> If you allow public prayer at the government institution, muslims will want their call to prayer "publicized" 5 times a day. Why not? What would prevent that? If you have a right to public prayer at USNA noon meals or other meals, why can't they have their public call to prayer (which I believe requires 5 different times a day...I could be wrong). At some point you open up a can of worms. Please answer #2 above.</li>
</ol>
<p>I love the noon meal prayer and I think it should stay. If you all were there and heard them every day you would know that the different chaplains bring in prayers from different beliefs. We've heard Native American, Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. In none do they actually reference in one entity other than the "Almighty God" or some version thereof. So it does not actually hone in on one specific faith although they are usually led by Protestant/Catholic chaplains because there are a good deal more of those than any other.
I don't think people are judged by not praying. I think the majority of people actual bow their heads and look down, I'm not sure to whether they were praying or not, or going over rates in their heads. Who knows? I have never heard of anyone being judged for not praying because who cares? I don't think there is anyone who is so narrow minded would look for people who are not praying, and if they did they would be disrespecting their God as to not pray. So I think that's a non-issue.
As to the call to prayer 5 times a day you would have to ask yourself about the possibility of that. Is it possible to do so without causing a disruption of the day? Will it cause students to leave class or some other military obligation? If so, then I would not mind hearing a short call to prayer over the 1MC for certain religions.
I honestly hope that this tradition stays.</p>
<p>Answer to question 2. (which I thought was already addressed)</p>
<p>Training...Most training takes place in public. (chow calls, the PRT, learning to be respectful of spiritual matters.....)</p>
<p>The Naval Academy knows its responsibility for equipping todays officers to face every challenge on the battle front. Some of those will be spiritual situations with those under an officers care. So they train them to be respectful and honor, even if they do not hold those exact same beliefs or perhaps do not have a faith of their own</p>
<p>With no training in this area, you have the very problem that is being expressed by a couple of mids...they are uncomfortable dealing with faith issues. As an officer, they better get comfortable dealing with every aspect of the men and women in their care. They will lead whole men (physical, spiritual, mental, emotional....) and they need training (which is usually accomplished in public) to equip the soon to be officers to handle this.</p>
<p>Many if not most will enter the battlefield with some faith based belief system. Only an untrained and naive officer is going to think he will never have to help any of his men/women navigate some of those waters. (if nothing else, to show respect and honor and encourage) They need to learn how to publically show respect and dignity. It is training.</p>
<p>The Washington Post has an ongoing site titled: On Faith and last week I responded to this subject. I will let you all read it. I also forwarded a copy to USNA's Head Chaplain, Fr. McGeory and received an almost immediate response from him, thanking me for my support.....</p>
<p>Hello, Susan.
Your thoughtful comments about the Naval Academy and prayer leave out a few other components of a military life that I have seen first hand.</p>
<p>There are such things as tradition - and a tradition at USNA since its founding in 1845 has been prayer at the lunch meal. In all these decades - it has taken until now to have 9 former midshipmen challenge this as 'unfair'? </p>
<p>The Congress of the United States begins with prayer. We have Chaplains for both Houses. This too is a tradition going back even further. Will there be more former and current Congressman challenging this as 'unconstitutional' - when our Founding Fathers expected Chaplains and prayer to be a part of our national life. Indeed even the renowned religious skeptic Benjamin Franklin called the unruly Constitutional Convention to pray when things got stalled and heated. No one in these circumstances challenged the idea.</p>
<p>In our military life - as Officers, Naval Academy graduates will be put in situations where their charges WILL turn to them for spiritual support in a moment of crisis. The old phrase 'there are no atheists in foxholes' is merely an expression of this brought to it's supreme moment. But even in sub life, or on long ship cruises - in counseling situations with family problems.....Naval Officers and Marine Officers are often looked upon to provide an anchor of emotional and spiritual support. To have our midshipmen experience the Chaplain's brief non-sectarian prayer at the beginning of a lunch meal is one more essential leadership example being shown to them first hand. </p>
<p>There are no 'tests' or grades in religion at the Academy. No one receives demerits for not praying or not attending church. And indeed - no one is forcing anyone to believe in God. All one is being asked to do is be respectful of the fact that the tradition of their school reflects a time-honored American tradition of acknowledging a Divine Providence that has blessed and protected our nation.</p>
<p>Our country has become increasingly preoccupied with 'how one feels' as the basis to make moral judgments and hold others to the expectation that the greatest social fauxpaux is to make someone else uncomfortable. This is a sad commentary on a culture that has unmoored itself from its Judeo-Christian anchor of God, family, country being the social and moral forces to which it subscribes. The nine former midshipmen who filed this complaint rely on this kind of personal, subjective standard to impell thousands of other midshipman and over 150 years of history to change to suit them. I find THIS unfair!</p>
<p>The ACLU is bent on removing religious expression from our public life. Whether it is a tiny cross on the city of Los Angeles' seal, or telling city councils to remove a Christian nativity from a Christmas display, or challenging court-room oaths, or now prayer at a Service Academy, this organization is doing harm to our national heritage.</p>
<p>Someone, some organization, some group has to stand somewhere and finally challenge this relentless assault from this kind of challenge.</p>
<p>The Naval Academy Superintendant - not known to respond to outside pressure easily - we parents of midshipmen know this first-hand , has publically stated there will be no change to the current Chaplain-led lunchtime prayers.</p>
<p>It is my hope that he remains true to his word.</p>
<p>Thank you for listening</p>
<p>Diane Peske
wife of J. US Naval Academy 1972
mom of J. current midshipman, USNA 2010, Arabic major and one day hopeful Marine officer</p>
<p>navymom08, I think you are stretching here. I do not believe the purpose of the noon prayer is training. The purpose is for people who believe in God to reflect and share gratitude for the meal they are about to receive. I strongly believe that any person who wishes to say a prayer before a meal should be able to do so. Again, the problem comes in when people are penalized for not participating. Maybe what needs to happen is some tolerance training for those midshipmen who are looking around and making judgments about who is or isn't praying. Doesn't seem to me that they are too serious about that prayer time if they spend it policing other mids.</p>
<p>navymom08, I am quite certain that if at the noon meal an imam came in and asked people to lay down their prayer mats facing east and lie prostrate on the ground, and people with beards were spying around from their mats during that prayer to see who was and wasn't complying, you would have an issue with it.</p>
<p>You are quite right, however, that mids need to learn to be respectful of all beliefs, even if that belief is that there is no god. Generally speaking, it seems to be the religious who have more of a problem with those who do not believe than the other way around. Case in point, the atheist who recently sued the army for "unconstitutional discrimination". His harassment was so severe for his "lack of belief", that the army had to assign him a full time body guard. He chose not to pray at the dinner table and was told to go eat somewhere else. Complaints of strident proselytizing verging on harassment and persecution of atheists has also cropped up at the service academies. </p>
<p>These are the problems that start cropping up when you start promoting state sanctioned religion. If everyone would behave themselves, there would be no issue, and everyone could pray when and how they wanted. Of course, if everyone behaved themselves, there would be no need for a military.</p>
<p>I think Plebemom has a very good point.</p>
<ol>
<li> I'm not saying, and I doubt very seriously that the ACLU is either, that one cannot pray before a meal ANYWHERE. But of course the propaganda is that that is what is threatened.</li>
<li> No one, I repeat no one, can prevent you from private prayer in any forum...at least in the U.S.A.</li>
<li> With all due respect, you have NOT answered the question of WHY the prayer HAS to be public. It is NOT training anyone. It is subjecting the group en masse to something that many may not agree with or be burdened with. Tommy can still bow his head before his meal and pray without it being "led" or broadcast over the public address system by ANY religious figure.<br></li>
<li> You mention "tradition"...BS flag....that keeps us in the dark ages because the same argument was used for blacks, women etc. "we've always done it that way" as I pointed out is unsupported.</li>
<li> No one is "training" tolerance during a public prayer. You have to "teach" tolerance. And as Plebemom stated...there has been more harm than benefit from the public prayer practice and this has historical precedent.</li>
<li> I want you to pray...I support your belief to pray...but I don't think I should have to be subjected to it if I do not "choose" to. I'm at a school to learn. I'm in the military to defend my country and its inhabitants. Educate about diversity. Open peoples minds instead of using "tradition" to close them and keep them closed. There is no "education" in the religious differences of others by public prayer...it's used to intimidate. This is an unfortunate conseqence. I'm not saying that ALL do this or that MANY do this but enough to suggest that the PUBLIC aspect needs to be prohibited in governmental institutions. It serves no purpose that cannot be accomplished PRIVATELY.</li>
<li> There are many who USE the gospel or religious requirement to convert (I forget where it is said) as the source for their insistence on public prayer. It helps them to identify the non-believer so that they can go out and solicit their conversion.</li>
</ol>
<p>"Case in point, the atheist who recently sued the army for "unconstitutional discrimination". His harassment was so severe for his "lack of belief", that the army had to assign him a full time body guard. He chose not to pray at the dinner table and was told to go eat somewhere else. Complaints of strident proselytizing verging on harassment and persecution of atheists has also cropped up at the service academies."</p>
<p>could you point to a news article that verifies this incident. I cannot find it.</p>
<p>Haha, that's crazy. No one is judged during meal.</p>
<p>why does a loud vocal few get to change the policies that benefit a larger majority because of a perception of discomfort? </p>
<p>Life is not fair to all. </p>
<p>Deal with it.</p>
<p>I just wonder why it's "unfair" to ask some people to put up with prayer by those around them.</p>
<p>Why isn't it "unfair" to ask those who now happily pray before meal to stop doing so?</p>
<p>Praying isn't "fair" to some, stopping prayer isn't "fair" to some. The only difference is that the ACLU prefers NO prayer. The Constitution says "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."</p>
<p>I fail to see how the chaplains asking those who wish to join them to so do is a violation of the above phrase.</p>