<p>As a potential Midshipman, I am drawn to the Naval Academy by its secure foundation in tradition and religion. There are an incredible amount of references to the beliefs and trust in God by our founding fathers, but especially so when in military context. For example Article VI of the Code of Conduct for Members of the Armed Forces "I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions and dedicated to principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America." The Code of Conduct gives guidelines for a man's actions and decorum in his darkest hour- when he or she is required to give their life in service or as a Prisoner of War. If we can "trust in [our] God" at this time, is it not proper to thank him before a noon meal.</p>
<p>Also, as a recent attendee of Summer Seminar, I have witnessed firsthand the noon prayer. I am a Roman Catholic and so am biased when I say that it was not offensive. However, the prayer was truly non- sectarian. The chaplain via PA simply announced his thanks to god and asked for protection over our country and over the men and women who served it through the armed services.</p>
<p>Yes, the Navy is our most tradition bound service. And prayer is a tradition. It has been a tradition at USNA noon meal formation for a very very long time. There will be prayers at dining ins, dining outs, banquets, commissionings, decommissionings, changes of command, graduations, and a host of other events. Perhaps if one is unwilling to be a part of this tradition, they have no business being in the Navy.</p>
<p>The Navy is a full-time lifestyle. 24/7. Attendance is not optional. Living is cramped. Sometimes procedures are developed for the overall good of the group which might not be the absolute best for each individual. Anyone unwilling to recognize this perhaps does not belong in the Navy.</p>
<p>As a leader, a USNA grad is totally responsible for those under him, all their needs, both spiritual and physical. Anyone unwilling to ensure that these spiritual needs are met perhaps does not belong in the Navy.</p>
<p>We stand at attention and place our covers over our heart after the Army-Navy game while the woops are singing their alma mater. Are we in danger of being converted to Woopism. I don’t think so. It is simply a sign of respect for our fellow brothers and sisters in arms. Heck, we even stand for the Canadian national anthem when their hockey teams come to town. Do we have more respect for a Canadian hockey player than we do for our own fellow shipmates who may someday pull us unconscious out of a burning smoke-filled compartment? If we do, perhaps we are in the wrong line of work.</p>
<p>As a young Ensign leading his first boarding party against a ship which in all probability is filled with hostile armed East Africa Indian Ocean pirates or as a 2nd Lieutenant with his squad in a cramped hot loud dark armored personnel carrier on the way to do what Marines are paid to do, what if the most junior man on board asks if they can have a prayer. What are you going to do? Cite the separation of church and state and state that prayer is not possible? Will you be serving your men? I doubt it. Will you ask this most junior member whom you know to be a fundamentalist Bible belt Christian and will no doubt offend your two Jewish squad members and also the Hindu? I hope not. Maybe this is the time that you will come to realize your regret for learning to count backwards from 100 to 0 in multiples of six, seven, eight, and nine during lunch every noon for the four years you were at the Academy and that you yourself should be offering a simple prayer. If you cannot meet all the needs of your troops, perhaps you need to find a new job.</p>
<p>As already stated, the prayers are truly nonsecular. Chaplains can get in a lot of trouble during mandatory functions doing otherwise. A few have lost their careers. The noon meal prayer, at least in my time, was not always truly a prayer. Definitely not a theology lesson. Perhaps a little humor, a thought for the day, some calming words, or a tidbit of philosophy:</p>
<p>“Most holy Father, let’s help everyone to realize that no matter what happens on this afternoons final exams, that that most magnificence glorious golden orb will still in its splendor, rise from that deepest blue sea to the east of us tomorrow morning. (slight pause). But please help everyone to do their best on the exams this afternoon.”</p>
<p>Totally fabricated but not too far from many that I heard. We actually looked forward to them, some chaplains more than others. </p>
<p>And tolerance of ones beliefs is not the polar opposite of intolerance for ones disbelief. One is compassion and the other is selfish arrogance.</p>
<p>bravo USNA69! You and I don't always see eye to eye on this forum, but on this, we stand united. Thanks for your post!</p>
<p>Oh, and......
GOD bless you!
:-)</p>
<p>USNA69, I don't understand your last sentence. Could you please rephrase? Thanks.</p>
<p>PlebeMom, there is a preponderance of evidence that the Navy's intent is to expose our military members spiritually. Tradition aside, please reread SemperExcelsius' post #23 on this thread which is a quote from the USNA catalog. Also, the Navy sees fit to fund the Chaplain Corps and the supporting RP rate. They should be allowed to do 'their job'. The definition of 'their job' being the chaplain's creed and their support of post #23 above. To support this faction, even though one has no faith, is a demonstration of tolerance, teamwork, and overall 'belongingness'. However, for a non-believer to demand not to be exposed to it, at the expense of his fellow shipmates, is intolerant and arrogant. The overall good of the unit applies.</p>
<p>"USNA69, I don't understand your last sentence. Could you please rephrase? Thanks"</p>
<p>Really it seems crystal clear to me...</p>
<p>"To support this faction, even though one has no faith, is a demonstration of tolerance, teamwork, and overall 'belongingness'. However, for a non-believer to demand not to be exposed to it, at the expense of his fellow shipmates, is intolerant and arrogant. The overall good of the unit applies."</p>
<p>Very well said......
BZ</p>
<p>I have never been to any military ball, change of command, or important function without the chaplain doing an invocation. It is a part of the military life. That being said, I do have an issue when some chaplains push the line a little too far. They are there for spiritual guidance and we do have military members who are not christian. My MIL is jewish and when she has attended the function with an invocation where the Chaplain says something akin to "thank you to JC our Lord and savior with this we owe you..." it feels uncomfortable.<br>
Have the prayer, but we all should be tolerant that some people who believe in a different religion need to be included also. The mentioning of JC excludes people just as much as having the prayer excludes aetheists.</p>
<p>BTW I am Catholic, so for me I don't mind.</p>
<p>I understand your point now. Thanks.</p>
<p>Did someone seriously just compare the Naval Academy to Nazi Germany, just because they encourage people to practice their religious beliefs?</p>
<p>If people don't want to pray, they don't have to. I do believe in separation between Church and State and don't believe people should be forced to do anything in regards to religion. But if a very small minority feel uncomfortable, big deal. It's not like it's inhumane to say a prayer as a group. I have felt similarly uncomfortable before for different reasons and got over it. </p>
<p>I'm not an evangelical, or even a very religious person. I just think this country has swung to far in the opposite direction in regards to religion relations in order to appease radically liberal beliefs, like those of the ACLU, an organiziation founded by a communist on communist principles.</p>
<p>This may be out of context; but: "can't we just all get along"</p>
<p>the noon prayers are not predominantly any one faith, that is true. and yes, to the other mid who said that, were one to be present at those prayers everyday, one would support them....well i am present everyday, and honestly its a tad ridiculous. people fixing their uniforms, staring at the ceiling, staring at each other, seeing who prays and who doesn't...the snickering when a native american OR hindu OR muslim prayer is read...honestly, i don't feel spiritually enlightened. i could seriously do without it. i'm not going to jump in to the whole debate, but THIS mid thinks the "tradition" has lost its meaning.</p>
<p>Wheelah44- just think when you get commissioned and you and your personnel attend Captain's Call you get to hope that your personnel do not appear to be disinterested, or do something that embarrasses the CO. Because, you will be the one explaining the actions of your personnel. If nothing else, the noon prayer is an opportunity to practice patience and acting like you care.</p>
<p>Religion is something the Academy promotes. In Admiral Rempt's directives, he encouraged all midshipmen to engage in spiritual activity. If you took a general consensus vote from midshipmen, most of them would say "keep it" but others just see it as time to fix uniforms or look around at everyone else, or fidget with something until the prayer is over. Prayers are especially brutal during days when we have something good for lunch, like Buffalo Chicken Sandwiches and people just want to eat and Father Logan is up there...we all know the feeling.</p>
<p>We are the only school in the country that still has prayer, and I don't see how we could still have it, legally speaking. I'm not saying it's not useful for some people, but I'm going to directly refute what '69 said. With all due respect sir, people being forced to suffer through prayer is not "for the good of the unit". If they aren't happy sitting through the prayer, why "hide the fact" or even worse, "go along with it"? We're here to make decisions based on what's morally right. Do you think it's morally right to partake in something you don't believe in? I don't. Just think, I'm a semi-religious person who gives the origin of man thought each day.</p>
<p>I take pride in my company ranking and what my company officer and upperclass think about me, but I tell you it would certainly take a dip if I deliberately showed people during prayer that I'm not a willing participant. My method of religion is really nothing you're going to take from a Bible, so it's not all atheists who have gripes about this. I especially don't like it when the Bible is quoted because then organization is brought into it and then people are obligated in a way because a commissioned naval officer is leading the prayer.</p>
<p>In short, organized religion distorts and does a disservice to the most devine force of all...nature. If people just sat back and realized the capabilities of nature and harnessed it's goodness, the need to invent religion would have never existed. However, the Naval Academy has helped strengthen my beliefs in a supernatural force that you won't hear about in the Bible, whereas before I came, I was a Christian. Through logic, my courses at the Naval Academy have helped me realize that organized religion was created to manipulate society so that the clergy could own land. The reason why priests couldn't marry was because they didn't want potential children becoming ordained and inheriting the land. However, there is still a supernatural force that created the earth because of a few important things I've learned at the Naval Academy. The first thing is, matter is a conservative entity; it can neither be created nor destroyed. The second is a question I've always maintained to ask: Where does reason come from, and how are we as humans able to manipulate our environments? Is it because of our advanced frontal cortexes in our brains evolved over time? Who knows? These are two reasons why I believe there's a force out there, or a catalyst that I call, "God".</p>
<p>So the question of the day is, has the Academy failed in its mission to make me more spiritual? Many will say that it has corrupted me to eternal damnation, while others say that it has done its job by helping me be more sure about my beliefs than I've ever been before, reinforced by the knowledge I've learned in classes here at school. I mean if God (the one in the Bible) was so empowered to grant humans such a powerful tool as reason, would he be so punitive as to suppress all those who didn't believe those brandished words you see in the Bible? I think that any God granting such power would have sympathy for his creations, especially giving them that much power so as to realize the potential mistakes that could be made by them.</p>
<p>I have been in Shinto Shrines, Jewish Temples, Buddhist Temples, Episcopal, Baptist, Church Of Christ, and Later Day Saints Churches. I have also stood and honored "O Canada" (as a hockey family, one of my favorite Anthems and the kids actually know the words) in both the United States and Canada. As an Irish Catholic I may not have worshiped in any of the above religious houses (praying in a hockey rink doesn't count) but I have always respected the beliefs of those who did. If it required that I take my shoes off, I did. If it required that I turn a prayer wheel, I did. If it required that I wear a Kippah, I did. It was a sign of my respect for THEIR beliefs. If many of those around me are bowing their heads in prayer to whatever god or gods they may believe in, in respectful deference to their beliefs, I will keep my thoughts to myself for a few minutes. Just wait until you are assigned to a Military Advisory Group and there are twenty of "you" and about three or four hundred of "them". Are you going to put in a request that they don't stop the Weapons Carrier to pray too the spirit of the mountain before you continue on your way to relieve the duty crew? Hey, they just forced their beliefs on you. And they all carry weapons.</p>
<p>WOW! Buffalo chicken sandwiches, frontal cortexes, conservative entity. I'm certain I will never see those things together in a post again. GoNavyXC...try just closing your eyes and being quiet for a couple of minutes each day. I think it will be good for you.</p>
<p>Wow... what a concept ... "just closing your eyes and being quiet for a couple of minutes each day" might be good for us. How about if it could be done in silence? There is nothing voluntary about "voluntary noon prayer" We are forced to be a part of it, plain and simple. So I don't pray but I have to be there and basically pretend to partake in it. It is not voluntary. To be forced to listen just makes me more cynical about organized religion. </p>
<p>Just replace the public prayer with a moment of silence, every other institution seems to be able to grasp that concept. Quite frankly the whole idea that we can not be spiritual without public prayer is demeaning.</p>
<p>"Quite frankly the whole idea that we can not be spiritual without **public[/] prayer is demeaning."</p>
<ol>
<li>Well put.</li>
<li>Which leads me back to the question not answered...WHY must it be PUBLIC? Isn't the idea of prayer...personal...one on one?</li>
<li> I repeat, just because I advocate against PUBLIC prayer, does not make me anti-religion or an atheist.</li>
<li> The ACLU is there to protect things like the Bill of Rights. Freedom of Religion etc. You don't have to agree with the speech to fight for the RIGHT to it. The misinterpretation of the ACLU agenda sickens me. It's not about promoting atheism, it's about not allowing this country to SPONSOR any particular religious philosophy..poke a hole here with "prayer" and it leads to that hole getting wider and wider until you can't plug it anymore and YES, you end up with a Nazi type regime, or the Taliban or any country which "claims" it is ruled by "religious law."</li>
</ol>
<p>CurrentMid: What is your opinion of attending morning quarters on a ship where following muster you stand at attention and salute for yourself and your sailors as the flag as is raised? Is this considered Forced patriotism? You volunteered for USNA. This includes all customs and traditions, such as parades, noon meal formation, plebe year and yes, noon meal prayer. After you graduate, you will be exposed to many customs and traditions that may appear outdated and that you do not like. But, they have been around much longer than you and I. And, you did VOLUNTEER. Nobody forced you. </p>
<p>funnyesq; you are so far out in left field it is not even worth commenting on. Your discussion has merit, but then you venture into the extreme.</p>