<p>
</p>
<p>jadler, you're waffling. Make a stand.</p>
<p>I absolutely am not going to prohibit my sailors from listening or attending a religious service while on the ship. Just because I choose to "deprive" myself of the service doesn't mean I will outwardly show my opposition to it.</p>
<p>There's a difference between religious toleration and overt displays of disgust towards it. For me, it's easy to just stand there during prayer, and be quiet, but I'd rather not be a forced participant.</p>
<p>Gentlemen: enough! Or as the KJV says in the KJV, Hebrews 13:8</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And overt displays of disgust towards those who oppose it. Absolutely. Therefore, perhaps the correct approach might be, in ethics class, to ensure midshipmen understand the misuse of rank, authority, and uniform.</p>
<p>"Thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men...</p>
<p>"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret." - Matt. 6:5-6</p>
<p>To those that argue that the noon public "prayer" tradition continue...how do you reconsile the above (assuming you subscribe to the above scripture).</p>
<p>"When two or three are gathered in my name," comes immediately to mind.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret." - Matt. 6:5-6
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well then I guess it would be safe to say the last 20 centuries of organized prayer in a host of locations including such outrageous locations as in churches would be hard to reconcile with that verse as well...</p>
<p>I think the wheels are coming off the discussion bus...</p>
<p>Interesting aspect of this discussion in terms of it breaking down largely along generational lines, though not unexpected </p>
<p>There are few aspects of an individuals life more personal than their religious beliefs and their relationship with whatever religion or deity they choose or not choose to believe in. How people relate to one another on this issue it comes down to a willingness to respect all beliefs and not question or attempt to diminish or ridicule an individual based on the choice they ultimately make.</p>
<p>funnyesq seems totally hung up on the literal interpretation of parts of the Bible. Maybe he can spend a few minutes thinking about the following:</p>
<p>In the Book of Deuteronomy it says that if a man marries a woman and finds that she is not a virgin, and if her family cannot prove that she was a virgin before her marriage, “she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.”</p>
<p>Also, if found to be in an adulterous relationship, both the man and the woman are to be taken to the city gates and also stoned to death.</p>
<p>A woman “must not wear men's clothing…for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this,” the Bible says. </p>
<p>Also, “Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.” </p>
<p>Then, too, only certain people are welcome in God’s house of worship. If you happen to be a child born out of wedlock, you cannot go to there. The Bible declares that no illegitimate child, “nor any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, even down to the tenth generation.”</p>
<p>Also, if a certain part of your body happens to be injured in an accident or as a result of war, you cannot join with other worshippers of God, either. The Bible says: “If a man's testicles are crushed or his ***** is cut off, he may not be included in the assembly of the Lord.”</p>
<p>“If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.”</p>
<p>“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you.”</p>
<p>Not to mention sacrificing live animals and not eating pork and other unclean foods.</p>
<p>God hopefully also gave us a certain amount of intelligence and common sense to think for ourselves.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Gentlemen: enough!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I second that motion. Everyone's expressed their views. Neither side is going to "win". We've read the arguments.</p>
<p>Enough.</p>
<p>subvet, GoNavy! No one is forcing you to read this. Or can you not help it??</p>
<p>I do not take the Bible literally. I do find it an interesting piece of literature and often cite the inconsistencies to those that DO take it literally. What you cited is a handful of the many issues and/or inconsistencies.</p>
<p>I offered the verse as ONE source for many of the Interpretations MAN has given to scripture; something also written by MAN and presumed to be the word of G-d but that fact is only evidenced by Man's FAITH.</p>
<p>I cited the line because IMHO often it is the Christian Right that insists upon PUBLIC prayer (yes I just expressed some prejudice...sue me) and it humors me that they or those like them cite what fits their agenda and disregards what doesn't fit that agenda. </p>
<p>You are correct that taken literally practically everyone of us is in violation of Biblical commandments. I think the bottom line is the golden rule...Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. IMHO prayer is a private matter. The only thing accomplished by making it "public" is to IMPOSE that belief on those who may not be like minded. Free speech often has this problem....I like to walk down the street in peace and quiet...but Free Speech allows SOME to get their megaphones and broadcast all sorts of stuff that I don't want to hear...others may have no issue with it. </p>
<p>PUBLIC sponsored prayer in a governmental institution is NOT the same thing as Free Speech. It gives the indicia of government sponsored RELIGION which is contra to the establishment clause. </p>
<p>Do not "assume" I am male....</p>
<p>The previous post reminded me of this (this always cracks me up)....</p>
<p>an open letter to Dr. Laura
J. Kent Ashcraft
May 2000</p>
<p>Dear Dr. Laura,</p>
<p>Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.</p>
<p>I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.</p>
<p>a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?</p>
<p>b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?</p>
<p>c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.</p>
<p>d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?</p>
<p>e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?</p>
<p>f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?</p>
<p>g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?</p>
<p>h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?</p>
<p>i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?</p>
<p>j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)</p>
<p>I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.</p>
<p>Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.</p>
<p>Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.</p>
<p>These are the Biblical verses refered to above, in two different translations: the King James Version [KJV], and New International Version [NIV]</p>
<pre><code>Lev 18:22 [KJV] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. [NIV] Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Lev 1:9 [KJV] But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. [NIV] He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.
Exodus 21:7 [KJV] And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. [NIV] If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
Lev 15:19-24 [KJV] And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. 20 And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. 21 And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. 22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. 23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. 24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.
[NIV] When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. 20 Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 22 Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. 24 If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.
Lev 25:44 [KJV] Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. [NIV] Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
Exodus 35:2 [KJV] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. [NIV] For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Lev 11:10 [KJV] And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you [NIV] But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales --- whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water --- you are to detest.
Lev 21:20 [KJV] Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken [NIV] or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
Lev 19:27 [KJV] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. [NIV] Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
Lev 11:6-8 [KJV] And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. 8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
[NIV] The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divied, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcases; they are unclean for you.
Lev 19:19 [KJV] Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. [NIV] Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Lev 24:10-16 [KJV] And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp; 11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:) 12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them. 13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
[NIV] Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the name of the LORD with a curse; so they brough him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them. 13 Then the LORD said to Moses: 14 Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.
Lev 20:14 [KJV] And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. [NIV] If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
</code></pre>
<p>NA69: Please accept my apology young man. Didn't know I had to get your approval for a comment.</p>
<p>"God hopefully also gave us a certain amount of intelligence and common sense to think for ourselves."</p>
<p>Which raises the question...if God could grant us the reason to think for ourselves, would he be so punitive as to damn all of those who don't believe? Seems kind of silly and manipulative to me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
First of all, my meaning of morale was focused to the prayer. If you think that morale is going to signficantly decrease because the noon meal prayer is gone....you are wrong. I guarantee that what the Supe/Dant decisions have a bigger effect on morale.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think anyone will argue that a few kind words from the chaplain is going to do more for moral than the policies of administration (this past academic year has made light of that). However, I refuse to buy the effect that prayer does not have a positive aspect on the Brigade's morale. It may be fairly minimal, but its still there. As I stated earlier:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many times in my first year they were nothing more than the only kind words I may have gotten the entire day. As years passed, they were often the motivation to get me through a long day or a reminder of what we training these four years for.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Another thing, can we please get away from this supposed conspiracy of the "Christian Right?" Scripture or a specific belief system are not being addressed at these daily prayers. They are non-denominational and in the absolute least offensive manner possible.... what religion is it sponsoring???</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, please accept mine. I mistakingly interpreted it as a directive, not a comment. Hence my consternation. How could a Navy trained individual issue a directive without the wherewithal to enforce it. Leadership 101.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not sure. There does seem to be an undercurrent that perhaps part of the problem is the overzealous 'policing' of proper protocol during the prayer by certain 'groups'. Hence my previous comment that leadership classes might ought to include case studies in proper use of authority, rank, and uniform.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do not take the Bible literally. I do find it an interesting piece of literature and often cite the inconsistencies to those that DO take it literally.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>cite the inconsistencies? Interesting, so pray tell what would be the purpose or objective in doing so to someone whose faith you apparently hold in such disdain? If someone takes what they read in the bible literally, it is by their choice or do you presume to be their intellectual superior and feel some responsibility to enlighten them as to the "true meaning" of the bible? </p>
<p>Quite frankly I find your approach to dealing or interacting with those whose religious beliefs are not "appropriate" or "naive" in your opinion to be far more offensive than those that seek to facilitate public prayer. </p>
<p>Last point, I am at best, on a good day an agnostic, but I have great respect for the choices others make in terms of their religious beliefs, I may not agree with them, I may not possess the ability to comprehend a persons interpretation of whatever book of faith they choose to believe in, but I would not waste my time running around trying to point out inconsistencies in an individuals beliefs for entertainment value or to demonstrate my "obvious" intellectual superiority, nor would I encourage my children to do so. </p>
<p>funnyesq, I don't know what your game plan is but you're taking up a lot of real estate here, make a meaningful contribution to the discussion or please take a hike</p>
<p>cite the inconsistencies? </p>
<p>--I think they are already well documented. But to list some would be going off on a tangent I don't desire.</p>
<p>Interesting, so pray tell what would be the purpose or objective in doing so to someone whose faith you apparently hold in such disdain? </p>
<p>--Why is it that you interpret my comments so negatively? I have the utmost respect for people to believe however they choose as long as they do not impose their beliefs on me or tell me I will go to H-ll unless I believe as they do or comments like that. I have even posted that it is admirable that people want to pray and support prayer. I just do not support PUBLIC prayer initiated by a governmental entity like the USNA.</p>
<p>If someone takes what they read in the bible literally, it is by their choice or do you presume to be their intellectual superior and feel some responsibility to enlighten them as to the "true meaning" of the bible?</p>
<p>--Of course not. G-d gave us all free will...well at least that's what I believe. You can believe otherwise or agree. Makes no never mind to me. The point is that IF taken literally, we'd all be in breach. Interpretations have evolved, IMHO, as society has changed and progressed. Some people USE what is written for their own purposes and to some extent too often IMHO those purposes are hypocritical. But again that comment goes outside the subject of the thread.</p>
<p>Quite frankly I find your approach to dealing or interacting with those whose religious beliefs are not "appropriate" or "naive" in your opinion to be far more offensive than those that seek to facilitate public prayer.</p>
<p>---I never said that people beliefs are inappropriate or "naive." Why do you infer such? Everyone has a RIGHT to their opinion as long as it is not hurtful of others etc. Public Prayer initiated by a governmental entity, IMHO has the potential, if it is not already existing, to be disrepectful and hurtful to those that do not believe as the speaker. How can a religious belief be "inappropriate" I do not understand. Pray all you want. I am NOT precluding your right to pray...read my post...I simply do not think it appropriate for the government to sponspor "public prayer" or act in such a way as to give that impression. IMHO once permitted, it opens up a can of worms and there goes the idea of NO state sponsored religion.</p>
<p>Last point, I am at best, on a good day an agnostic, but I have great respect for the choices others make in terms of their religious beliefs, I may not agree with them, I may not possess the ability to comprehend a persons interpretation of whatever book of faith they choose to believe in, but I would not waste my time running around trying to point out inconsistencies in an individuals beliefs for entertainment value or to demonstrate my "obvious" intellectual superiority, nor would I encourage my children to do so.</p>
<p>---When I do it, I do it with the understanding that the recipient is OPEN to hearing the point. I have ALWAYS asked out of respect because I agree some people do NOT want to hear that the Bible has inconsistencies or interpret my pointing that fact out as anti-religion or disresepectful...I DO respect their right to believe that it IS the word of G-d. When I do it, I do it for the intelliectual challenge it offers, the idea that there might be some OTHER meaning...the idea that MAN may have influenced this book more than one might want to believe but again I do so ONLY if the person is OPEN for that.</p>
<p>funnyesq, I don't know what your game plan is but you're taking up a lot of real estate here, make a meaningful contribution to the discussion or please take a hike</p>
<p>---I believe I have. The bottom line is there will ALWAYS be MORE that one opinion and there will ALWAYS be disagreement on the issue.</p>
<p>There are approximately 2000 words contained within your post #92; would you be so kind as to enlighten us as the ones that, in your opinion; constitute a "meaningful contribution" to the discussion about whether or not organized prayer should be permitted or facilitated by the Naval Academy? </p>
<p>There is a substantial difference between discussing an issue, especially a controversial one, in a manner that involves the exchange of ideas with respect all around and the choice some make to advance an opinion simply to facilitate disagreement so you have the opportunity to disagree. </p>
<p>God is spelled G..o..d, not G-d are we clear on that? I really don’t get that. Are you afraid if you use “God” in your posts you might be smited? Suffer eternal damnation? </p>
<p>Now I know there are many other names used by other religions and I can’t say for certain if there is even one up there, and what he/she might be. Out of respect for those that do believe in God I would not attempt to somehow pervert the name used by and held in reverence by at least a few hundred million people who choose to believe. </p>
<p>How can you even begin to discuss such a subject without such a basic act of consideration on behalf of the beliefs of others? For someone that professes such respect one would think you would conduct yourself in a manner more consistent with the virtuous and tolerant individual you apparently believe yourself to be. </p>
<p>How long would you sit still if someone your were debating substituted a “-“ for one of the vowels in your name? And you’d not even a deity? Or are you? </p>
<p>Somehow funny-sq doesn't have the same ring... which reminds me, </p>
<p>The esq in your name...that wouldn't stand for esquire would it? God help us if you are a lawyer...we'll be at this until the second coming</p>