support USNA voluntary noon prayer

Colleges & Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>There are approximately 2000 words contained within your post #92; would you be so kind as to enlighten us as the ones that, in your opinion; constitute a “meaningful contribution” to the discussion about whether or not organized prayer should be permitted or facilitated by the Naval Academy?</p>

<p>—I posted it because to me it was funny. Excuse me for thinking that fact was obvious. If it was offensive to you, my apologies. Yes, I see it was outside the subject of the thread…I thought that too was obvious. What was your point? Do people who post in this forum NEVER go out side the subject of the thread? Do they never poke fun at subject matter? That was rhetorical.</p>

<p>There is a substantial difference between discussing an issue, especially a controversial one, in a manner that involves the exchange of ideas with respect all around and the choice some make to advance an opinion simply to facilitate disagreement so you have the opportunity to disagree.</p>

<p>—Where have I been disrespectful of others beliefs? The subject matter at hand has people on BOTH sides of the issue…clearly there is disagreement. How did I advance that? Am I not entitled to voice a different opinion that the one initiated? I find that I was not the only one against Public Prayer at the USNA.</p>

<p>God is spelled G..o..d, not G-d are we clear on that? I really don’t get that. Are you afraid if you use “God” in your posts you might be smited? Suffer eternal damnation?</p>

<p>—Hmmm…now YOU are treading into the disrespectful. In my religion one does not write out G-d. Or were you “assuming” because I do not believe in Public Prayer in Governmental institutions that I must be some agnostic/atheist? Perhaps you need some education in the beliefs of OTHERS. Here’s a start: [Ask</a> the Rabbi - Why some Jews spell God, “G-d”?](<a href=“http://judaism.about.com/od/reformjudaismfaq/f/god_spelling.htm]Ask”>http://judaism.about.com/od/reformjudaismfaq/f/god_spelling.htm)</p>

<p>Now I know there are many other names used by other religions and I can’t say for certain if there is even one up there, and what he/she might be. Out of respect for those that do believe in God I would not attempt to somehow pervert the name used by and held in reverence by at least a few hundred million people who choose to believe.</p>

<p>—So because of your ignorance you “assume” that I have perverted the name? Get an education. You sorely need one. [Ask</a> the Rabbi - Why some Jews spell God, “G-d”?](<a href=“http://judaism.about.com/od/reformjudaismfaq/f/god_spelling.htm]Ask”>http://judaism.about.com/od/reformjudaismfaq/f/god_spelling.htm)</p>

<p>How can you even begin to discuss such a subject without such a basic act of consideration on behalf of the beliefs of others?</p>

<p>—Again…cite me an example other than #92 where I have been disrespectful of others beliefs? I don’t have to agree to be respectful. </p>

<p>For someone that professes such respect one would think you would conduct yourself in a manner more consistent with the virtuous and tolerant individual you apparently believe yourself to be.</p>

<p>—I stand by my behavior. You can disagree with it all you want. Last time I checked it was still a free country.</p>

<p>How long would you sit still if someone your were debating substituted a “-“ for one of the vowels in your name? And you’d not even a deity? Or are you?</p>

<p>—People often misspell my name…that is different than a belief in not writing out the full name of funnyesq. </p>

<p>Somehow funny-sq doesn’t have the same ring… which reminds me,</p>

<p>The esq in your name…that wouldn’t stand for esquire would it? God help us if you are a lawyer…we’ll be at this until the second coming</p>

<p>–There was a first? (that was a joke…probably disrespectful)</p>

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<p>Wow, your level of ignorance is astounding. </p>

<p>Perhaps you need to do some research on Judaism and how observant Jews are required to write the name of God as G-d, lest it be erased or defiled, before you go off on a rant that makes you look more foolish than usual.</p>

<p>A simple Google search would cure your ignorance.</p>

<p>[God</a> versus G-d](<a href=“http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_g-d.htm]God”>http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_g-d.htm)</p>

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<p>This is getting way to complicated and confusing. I was a Naval Oficer (O-6). I had two commands that involved over 2300 personnel. I did what was necessary to maintain good order and discipline and to ensure my personnel were ready to complete the mission (including combat) from a professional and personnal standpoint. Yes, this involved prayer and everyone seem to accept it. And. despite any involvement by ACLU or some other politically correct organization, the mission was completed and there were no personnel standing on the sidelines complaining about noon time prayer. Before you make a comment, I want to emphasize that combat and enemy fire was involved. So, before the current mids, bloggers and recent graduates start to make their politcally correct comments, please talk to some actual SEAL platoons, Army and Marine combatants as well as Air Force personnel and see what their opinions are. These personnel do not support political correctness, but their efforts do allow you the freedom to b***h. I am sure you will be glad to know that this is my last post on this subject.</p>

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<p>grad/dad, I certainly hope you reconsider. This, to date, for the USNA forum, has been a rather civil, and for me very educational, discussion. I think there is quite a ways to go. None of the current/recently graduated mids have yet answered the question which I posed in my post #72. funnyesq seems to be the only one, who has repeated his argument adnausium that if church and state are not forced to remain separate in all aspects, that Nazi Germany will follow. Are the mids opposed because the prayer is boring? This seems to be a too relevant argument. Are they opposed because they feel that it violates their civil rights? Or are they opposed because they do not want to be exposed to religion or looked down on by an overzealous ‘religious right’? Do they feel that their actions which will ultimately affect their enlisted charges not being able to take part in prayer while preparing for combat are appropriate? Being an officer and leader of people in combat is an awesome responsibility. Decisions such as this require careful soul searching. We owe it to the jadlers of the future that they be able to articulate why they feel that a 5 minute evening prayer aboard ship is totally appropriate while, on the other hand, they would personally rip the handset out of the chaplain’s hand if he attempted a 4 minute ‘sermon’. Also, why a prayer aboard ship is appropriate and a prayer by the midshipmen at noon meal is not?</p>

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<p>I’ll answer your questions '69 as I have never felt the need to conform to anything. Anything I didn’t feel was right..well,..the door’s right there, so no one’s keeping me from leaving here. It might be something if this was The Citadel or Norwich University, but this is a FEDERAL service academy, and while we are here, the constitution still governs us. </p>

<p>As I’ve said before, I have no problems “just standing there” during prayer, but I do fear that people will judge me (and I have been called out, or at least questioned as to why I don’t pray at meals). </p>

<p>So as for the questions:</p>

<p>currentmid, jadler, wheelah, gonavyxc; Are you opposed to noon prayer in King Hall because A. being subjected to prayer offends you; or B. You feel that it violates the constitutional rights of you and/or your shipmates?</p>

<p>I’m opposed to prayer at noon meal (or morning, or evening meal) for both of those reasons. I’d like to get through to everyone here that the Academy has changed a whole lot since '65-'69, but in all, it has adapted to the needs of the military and to the scrutiny of the public. A few of the landmarks I can think of are the admission of women, change in the honor system, zero tolerance policy for hazing, and a rise in technology and technological resources that the Academy uses. In all these instances, the Academy broke from the traditionalist view and realized that it needed to conform in order to save face in the public’s eyes. I think being the only school (or even service academy) to keep prayer somehow illuminates the neo-conservative nature of the institution and helps us lose credibility, especially during this time period. </p>

<p>Mainly, I just don’t see how we can legally still have prayer in King Hall. It is organized and led by a commissioned naval officer, so you are obliged to pray in a way. Those who demonstrate their lack of prayer are ranked at the bottom of the company because others feel that these people are “misguided”. I feel like I have to make a sacrifice each time I go down to King Hall- Do I pretend to pray and “conform” to everyone else, or do I take a stand and take a hit in my rankings and credibility? I have never outwardly shown disapproval because, so far, my image has been more important than my desire to “act” interested and engaged during prayer. Do you think I’m misguided? I’m a 2/c investigating officer for the honor board and ranked #1 in the company. My superiors and my classmates think I’m fit for service. </p>

<p>'69, do you feel so hellbent that you need to make me conform because I will not make a good Naval Officer otherwise, or because I am not upholding tradition? When it comes to my sailors, I don’t have much say in what they choose to believe while underway or anywhere. They can believe whatever they want; I’m in no position to regulate their beliefs.</p>

<p>Just a thought, you have 3 current midshipman and 1 officer who are opposed to prayer, and this is only a forum where about 6 of us post. Think of how large a component DOESN’T want to pray at the Academy…</p>

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<p>Good post, GoNavy, but I must disagree with at least one statement, and question another.</p>

<p>“When it comes to my sailors, I don’t have much say in what they choose to believe while underway or anywhere. They can believe whatever they want; I’m in no position to regulate their beliefs.”</p>

<p>I disagree with this statement. As a divO or platoon leader, you may well be asked by your people for advice, counsel, or even to lead a prayer before going in harm’s way. Your own attitude, particularly how tolerant you are towards various religious beliefs (or lack thereof) can have an impact on whether those young people feel free to pray in your presence. Remeber, the other side of the oft-quoted “Establishment Clause,” is the “Free-Exercise Clause.”</p>

<p>Second point. You have commented that people have taken “hits” in their company rankings because they oppose the noon prayer. How can you possibly know that, since you are ranked first? Clearly, you personally have not taken a hit. If you know that others have, is it because you have let it impact your own ratings, or because you have heard others say they use it in their ratings, or because someone you know has been ranked lower, and you can’t imagine any other reason for it, or what? If you have heard discussions of down-ranking someone, did you let it slide? I agree with you that, if there is, in fact, a climate that leads to religious beliefs being a factor in rankings, it is wrong. However, I also believe that we as individuals must act to oppose such wrongs. Is it really the non-denominational prayer that is wrong, or is it the actions of those who would use the beliefs of others as a litmus test that are wrong? Not having a noon prayer won’t prevent such people from actions such as down-ranking their peers inappropriately.</p>

<p>I would urge readers of this thread to consider carefully the tension or balance between the establishment clause and the free-exercise clause. Current court rulings have, I think, swung the pendulum far beyond the balance point to favor the Establishment clause, but pendulums have a way of swinging back again. There are many good resources on this subject.</p>

<p>So long as the discussion remains civil, this topic seems to me to be one of the most important ones for new and future officers, and just plain citizens, to consider.</p>

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<p>Precisely. The perceived defects that people choose to see manifest themselves within human nature, religious differences are simply a vehicle of opportunity used to get to the ultimate issue. Absent of such a difference there will always be those among us that will look to find other differences; color, gender, nationality etc to justify their behavior.</p>

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<p>Great post GoNavyXC. It is the PUBLIC aspect of this prayer IMHO that creates the environment for intolerance as described by GoNavyXC. This is what I want to prevent. Perhaps I was too extreme with raising Nazi Germany but I strongly believe that it is this type of environment that led to the intolerance of Nazi Germany and at least ONE of their goals to rid the world of Jews…those that do not believe like the Nazis.</p>

<p>I agree that it is disheartening that a few wrongdoers can ruin it for the majority who perhaps are NOT engaged in this intolerance but again the rightdoers are NOT prevented from praying…if they want to pray, the can and are still encouraged to pray. I have seen many people, friends and strangers who take a moment before each meal to pray. They do not require a religious figure to LEAD them. They do not require other to join them. They just take their moment and pray.</p>

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<p>I can see being asked for counsel and advise which may or may not involve that person’s PERSONAL beliefs religious or otherwise. And that, IMHO, is not the same thing as government lead public prayer or the indicia of state sponsored religion.</p>

<p>Being asked to LEAD a prayer before going into battle…hmm…I can see this being “asked” but again would it have to be a particular creed/religion of the person asking/leading to the possible exclusion of the remaining men/women? How intolerant if so. Could it be one on one as in can you lead ME in prayer which seems consistent with asking for counsel and advise but NOT with the risk of excluding others. versus…“Sir, can you lead US in prayer” and the response being “take your moment if you need it” Again there is no prevention of the FREE EXERCISE.</p>

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<p>Prayer encouraged by ‘official’ government representatives is a long part of this country’s history. I could go on and on, but here are two short examples:</p>

<hr>

<p>IN CONGRESS</p>

<p>November 1, 1777</p>

<p>FORASMUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther Blessings as they stand in Need of; And it having pleased him in his abundant Mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable Bounties of his common Providence, but also to smile upon us in the Prosecution of a just and necessary War, for the Defence and Establishment of our unalienable Rights and Liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a Measure to prosper the Means used for the Support of our Troops and to crown our Arms with most signal success:</p>

<p>It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart THURSDAY, the eighteenth Day of December next, for Solemn Thanksgiving and Praise; That with one Heart and one Voice the good People may express the grateful Feelings of their Hearts, and consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor; and that together with their sincere Acknowledgments and Offerings, they may join the penitent Confession of their manifold Sins, whereby they had forfeited every Favour, and their humble and earnest Supplication that it may please GOD, through the Merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of Remembrance; That it may please him graciously to afford his Blessing on the Governments of these States respectively, and prosper the public Council of the whole; to inspire our Commanders both by Land and Sea, and all under them, with that Wisdom and Fortitude which may render them fit Instruments, under the Providence of Almighty GOD, to secure for these United States the greatest of all human blessings, INDEPENDENCE and PEACE; That it may please him to prosper the Trade and Manufactures of the People and the Labour of the Husbandman, that our Land may yet yield its Increase; To take Schools and Seminaries of Education, so necessary for cultivating the Principles of true Liberty, Virtue and Piety, under his nurturing Hand, and to prosper the Means of Religion for the promotion and enlargement of that Kingdom which consisteth “in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.”</p>

<p>And it is further recommended, that servile Labour, and such Recreation as, though at other Times innocent, may be unbecoming the Purpose of this Appointment, be omitted on so solemn an Occasion.</p>

<p>Extract from the Minutes,</p>

<h2>Charles Thomson, Secr.</h2>

<p>Congressional Fast Day Proclamation, March 16, 1776</p>

<p>IN CONGRESS</p>

<p>In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.</p>

<p>. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God’s superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies;</p>

<h2>. . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day. </h2>

<p>More:
[Religion</a> and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89 (Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, Library of Congress Exhibition)](<a href=“http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html]Religion”>Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress))</p>

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<p>Obviously directed at me. Why? To lend discredit to my credibility? However, your comment is totally irrelevant. Just a few hours ago, a prayer was held in King Hall as it has been for the last 165 years. Last evening all around the world US Navy ships broadcast an evening prayer over the IMC. Therefore, we are talking about current customs and traditions, dictated by current officers. What happened ‘in my day’ matters not a hoot.</p>

<p>Your primary concern appears to be the fact that you, among others, will be graded negatively for failure to comply. Ceasing the prayer is a band aid, not a cure. The problem is those who judge, not the prayer. As others are stating, good proactive leadership would be to address this problem, not cease the prayer.</p>

<p>I do not believe in customs and traditions for the sake of customs and traditions. I welcome those who question. Do you, in your sterile environment, never having been to the fleet, feel qualified to declare that those who will serve under you in the future do not deserve an evening prayer? That the SEAL team on an LPD in the Persian Gulf does not deserve a prayer before they depart on their mission? That the lonely scared 18 year old flight deck worker who has never before been away from home does not deserve the same. As a future aviator, do you know what it is like to launch on a mission with pretty good odds your might not come home. If so, there are a lot of CURRENT senior leadership out there who would agree with you. Will you deny him that moment of reflection and solitude? I would suggest that if you want to change things, at least know the full ramifications of your stand.</p>

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<p>I doubt its anywhere near the component that do want prayer at the Academy. Most people that I’ve talked to on the subject support it as a something both beneficial and benign… I think there is also a lot being made of this perceived discrimination. Not only is the discrimination minimal if it exists at all, but even more, if a few mids opinion of you is based on your refusal to pray during noon meal, than maybe its time you get your head out of your @$$ and start involving yourself in the company</p>

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<p>Wow itlstallion422,</p>

<p>Involvement in the company…I don’t even know where to start, but I imagine that someone who has gotten ranked #1, 3 semesters out of 4 might know something about company involvement. Perhaps I should shed some light on this.</p>

<p>The ranking system is something of a “confidence vote” in you as a leader as most people know. In most companies, the rankings flutuate so much each semester that it’s hard to get an accurate reading. I imagine (I don’t know, I must not know from any experience here) that the way someone attains a number one ranking (or even an “A” in aptitude) must be doing something right. My philosophy on leadership is to be a servent leader. If you show that you’re willing to work for others, they will respect you. Being a servent leader also means that you’re sensitive to everyone’s beliefs and you take everyone’s opinion as something worthwhile, then when you have the information, you unambiguously take a stand with boldness and deciciveness. I was honored to have one of the sailors on my youngster cruise last year state, “MIDN BMP, I would be honored to follow you when you hit the fleet.” I’ll take what others have given me and ride with it. I feel like I have a certain style of leadership that I’m going to follow and it has paid off so far. I’m going to trust my instincts and take it to the bank with me whether it gets me ranked #1, #2, or #32.</p>

<p>Which gets back to another point. The prayer on board a ship is fine, but know this: it often serves as a security blanket for the unknown. I think if you are effective enough in your leadership, you don’t need faith to get through, you only need those strong leaders there to offer reason, logic, and comfort. Leaders are not taking the place of God here, it just seems more sensible to have credible leaders bearing the brunt of the concerns and doubts of the crew, not God. Like I said before, people have to imagine that there is a God because the world seems like a lonely, grim place without one. If people just appreciated how powerful the most divine force was, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.</p>

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<p>GoNavyXC, join jadler in waffling. Prayer is okay on a ship but not okay in King Hall? This I really don’t understand. Unless, in your view, midshipmen are so special and gifted that they have no need for a God. Hopefully, one of you can explain it. And your goal is to be a “strong leader(s) there to offer reason, logic, and comfort”, not “taking the place of God”, but, by bearing the brunt of their concerns, causing your troops to have no need for a God? Truly a heady undertaking.</p>

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<p>USNA’69, with all due respect sir, with your time in the service, you have probably seen the difference in endeavors between eating in King Hall and a potentially dangerous situation. People don’t need much guidance from a higher power on how to best go about eating their meal. When you bring a ship into the Persian Gulf, your sailors start looking for guidance from another source. Two completely different situations. Have you ever doubted your leadership abilities so much that you had to turn to God to bail you out?</p>

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<p>Wow, humble too… Although I think you missed one of the points of my last post. The example I cited where a certain mid needed to become more involved in the company wasn’t in any way targeted at you (or anyone else in this forum for that matter), because, as you have already made it abundantly clear, you’ve been ranked number one in your company. Instead my point was directed at a theoretical example of a midshipman who was so transparent, who had done nothing to ingratiate him or herself with their company mates that the only experience they had on which to form an opinion was the fact that they choose not to pray at meal, and as such, they were some godless heathen confined to the 7th circle of hell.</p>

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<p>Christian evangelical bigots took over the US Air Force Academy a few years ago, don’t be so smug to think it couldn’t happen here as well.</p>

<p>[Air</a> Force to Probe Religious Climate at Colorado Academy](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/03/AR2005050301499.html]Air”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/03/AR2005050301499.html)</p>

<p>From the article:</p>

<p>The report said that during basic training, cadets who declined to go to chapel after dinner were organized into a “Heathen Flight” and marched back to their dormitories. It said the Air Force’s “Chaplain of the Year” urged cadets to proselytize among their classmates or “burn in the fires of hell”; that mandatory cadet meetings often began with explicitly Christian prayers; and that numerous faculty members introduced themselves to their classes as born-again Christians and encouraged students to become born again during the term.</p>

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<p>Jeebus, if you are going to play, please do us a favor and read the thread up to date. My posts #84 and #97, as well as 2012mom?'s #106 and rjrzoom57’s #107 addressed this very issue. To repeat myself, to bow to the “Christian evengelical bigots” is not addressing the leadership issue which it surely is, but circumenting the problem. Navy can do better than AFA. We can learn from others mistakes. Their solution was rather juvenile.</p>

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<p>Apparently, this is your attempt to say that prayer is okay in certain situations in the Navy and not in others. Therefore, we can discredit any comments you have made about the necessity of separation of church and state. So, you are agreeing that in certain situations, prayer might be acceptable. So, are you prepared to state that the plebe who is agonizing over quitting, the youngster who has just lost his girlfriend, or the firstie whose parents are in the middle of a divorce, are not worthy of the serenity of a noon prayer, while someone in an F-18 launching off the bow of a carrier is. What right do you have to make this determination? jadler seems to have faded into the sunset without being able to answer this question. Perhaps you can help him.</p>

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<p>To have this simply put and while maintaining tact, I personally do not take offense to prayer in King Hall. I am trying to sympathize with the people who do. I am rather indifferent myself and I don’t feel bothered. You ask, so what’s the problem then? I see other people narrowly ridiculed for not praying, and the whole prayer debacle breaks down the integrity of the unit if even one person disagrees.</p>

<p>I really wouldn’t have any say in the matter until I watched my friend try to argue with our squad leader as to why prayer should be eliminated and why he feels so uncomfortable about it. He is on the Supt’s list and is held in very high regard with the rest of us (peers), but his murderboard ranking was last, dead last and I find there to be little or no explaination behind it besides the skirmishes that he had with the squad leader at meal discussing the concept.</p>

<p>It’s not that prayer offends me, I think it just adversely contributes to the unit. If even one person complains, then it’s a problem. That’s when the servent leader steps to the plate and addresses it.</p>

<p>As far as me “not being humble about ranking”, I admit that it may have been pretentious for me to post that. However, it does prove a point that all realms of the brigade see the problem with prayer. </p>

<p>If they kept prayer, I wouldn’t be dissappointed, it really wouldn’t matter for me personally, but I would sympathize with those who have to suffer with it each day.</p>

<p>I hope most everyone here knows that this argument is most likely going to be for nothing more than people shoveling against the tide. If this case goes to court, there’s no way they can keep prayer here.</p>