support USNA voluntary noon prayer

Colleges & Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
61

<p>


</p>

<p>And also quite frankly, the inability to accept the training and exposure to an ideal which the Academy feels is necessary and someone who does not even understand the intent, does not, is arrogant.</p>

62

<p>
[QUOTE]

The Academy feels that a proactive exposure to religious customs is necessary in the overall moral, ethical, and leadership training of those who, in the future, will be tasked with that awesome responsibility of leading our soldiers, sailors, and Marines. A moment of silence does not fit this bill. It is a viable important part of their education.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I think this is a great point. However, this doesn't have to be accomplished through prayer!!! Better leadership training would come through "religious" training. Conduct training that explains the customs/traditions of each religion, not prayer. </p>

<p>I stood through the prayers all of my four years and never complained (I really didn't care). However, I think the government will lack legal justification should the case goes to trial. The government is going to have to prove that the military objective outweights the full word of an amendment to the Constitution. Since there are other ways to implement religious training, I don't think a court would uphold that the military has a "valid" reason to conduct prayer. Since MIDN are FORCED to pray, whether they have to stand there silently, violates their inherent rights. It doesn't matter whether or not they should stand their silently and "ignore" the prayer or that other functions in the military require self-discipline. The only thing that matters is if their rights were violated because there was an invalid military objective. At other functions, i.e. parades, formations, etc. there is a valid military objective (training, instill good order/discipline, etc.). With this being said, if the court overturns the Academy's noon meal prayer, other functions that have prayers and require servicemember attendance could be overturned.</p>

<p>I just don't think the government will be able to explain how a forced noon meal prayer has a valid military objective which supersedes the Constitution.</p>

<p>Back to work.</p>

63

<p>The noon meal prayers here are for the hypocrites. They directly contradict the words of Jesus. </p>

<p>Matthew 6:5-6</p>

<p>"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."</p>

<p>But then again, hypocrisy is the foundation of religion.</p>

64

<p>jadler03: when you have the morning watch on Sunday while you are underway, are you going to refuse to raise the Church Pennant when religious services are going on? Also, why doesn't a noon prayer help instill good order and discipline and benefit morale for the vast majority of the Brigade?</p>

65

<p>I am a devout Christian and so it pains me to say this but I can predict with a great degree of confidence, that the ACLU is going to prevail in this case at some point. The basis of the case is going to be: is there such a thing as "voluntary" in this setting? If everyone is required to stand- then it's going to be seen by the court as forced participation regardless of the tag line "voluntary" and the fact that Mids are volunteers to begin with won't fly- they volunteered to attend a public institution -but the court will say that once there they have no choice but to eat and if this is a daily occurence for which they are required to stand- they are being coerced into participating in a religious ceremony. VMI went to the Supreme Court with exactly the same scenario and was shot apart handily about two years ago.
The fig leaf of "training" is not going to stand up in court - training for what? Politeness? Never going to fly. In this case what's going to be lost is a tradition - and one that is void of much spiritual meaning for a true believer since, by definition any really nondenominational prayer is so watered down that it meets the needs of no denomination- ie.. a practicing Jew clearly can not pray thru the mediation of Christ, while a faithful Christian can do no other. While I don't personally believe that there is much spirtual value in public prayer, I do believe that there is a great deal of organizational value in subordinating my personal and specific beliefs to the good of the entire unit. Teh fact that you can get a couple of midshipmen or cadets to sue to stop this seems somehow to be a sad reflection on a generation that sees their own personal desires as of greater value than the desires of the collective group. "I have my rights and they negate everything else" even in an organization where the good of the unit is the paramount virtue. The ACLU likes to portray itself as being "brave defenders of the rights of the individual" but they seem to pick pretty selectively which individual rights that they bravely stand up for. In his post Jeebus' last comment certainly exposes the intolerance of the antireligious faction- that is certainly as uneducated and offensive a comment as any and for someone theoretically in training to be a professional officer and leader of a diverse collection of men and women- can't see how he is going to be a success in that role -to the detriment of his subordinates who will rely on him to support them in their collective needs which will include supporting their morale and mental well being which - like it or not has a spritual component for most people.</p>

66

<p>there is nothing voluntary about the noon meal prayer. every single other school in the nation seems to understand this, including the other military academies. if people want to pray, they should do so in private.</p>

67

<p>Wheelah44: attending USNA is VOLUNTARY. The rules and expectations are provided in a catalogue for review prior to submitting an application. If you do not like the customs and traditions, the classes, the parades, etc then do not apply. Once you become a member of the Brigade you are required to abide by the rules, the customs and traditions, etc. Why is this so hard to understand? The freedom of choice is there. But once the decision is made, live with the results.</p>

68

<p>Is the institution so stagnant that it can not change? Just because a tradition or custom is long standing does not make it correct. No where does it say in the catalog that I cannot try to change the customs and traditions to make the institution a better place for All Midshipmen. Ask the former Commandant, she certainly did not have a hard time, nor has Admiral Fowler, in trying to change customs and traditions. While a policy is in place we do live within its confines, but that does not mean that we cannot seek change.</p>

<p>Prayer is a private matter, it should not be done in public. A moment of silence will fit the needs of every Midshipman. Public prayer does not.</p>

69

<ol>
<li> I think it admirable that many want to promote tolerance and diversity and open up and expose people to various religious beliefs. Teach tolerance, by all means. Teach diversity, by all means. Advocate an open mind, by all means.</li>
<li> Perhaps I'm biased but I grew up with relatives who were persecuted for their beliefs and had to leave nazi occupied countries. I have also seen first hand people who judge me and condemn me for having a "different" religious belief than "the norm" (whatever that might be). That said, I do not intend to condemn those on this board for their beliefs or to lump them with those that would and have condemned me. My point is that all it takes is a few intolerant to spoil the party. I would love for a society where public prayer is not abused or has no potential for abuse. Reality is that it does, and has.</li>
<li> Society changes with innovation. Tradition was the argument at one time to keep women out of many "traditionally" occupied male positions including attendance at the USNA. Some would argue that that tradition should have never been eroded, others would argue that we have all benefitted by the admission of women. Certainly the work force in general has benefitted. Yes, there are some disadvantages as well. But with change there is always good AND bad. We evolve hopefully for the better.</li>
</ol>

70

<p>I don't like grad/dad's stance on this at all. I'm not just going to "drink the punch" if I don't feel something is right. You shouldn't have to "blindly" sign on to something if you don't agree with it. Certain aspects of midshipmen life are changed BY THE MIDSHIPMEN, AND NOT THE ADMINISTRATION. The honor system and the way companies are run are just a few things that come to mind.</p>

71

<p>
[QUOTE]
when you have the morning watch on Sunday while you are underway, are you going to refuse to raise the Church Pennant when religious services are going on?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I don't see the connection here. Forcing people to pray is different from hoisting the Church Pennant, which is to signal that services are occuring. So no, I would not refuse to raise the pennant. If you were to ask me to allow the chaplain to get over the 1MC to conduct services, I would object!</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]

Also, why doesn't a noon prayer help instill good order and discipline and benefit morale for the vast majority of the Brigade?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I honestly don't see your point to the question. You could offer a moment of silence and that could instill good order and discipline. Why do you need a noon meal prayer to instill good order and discipline? Why does morale matter? If you violate someone's Constitutional rights, you violated their rights, period. You might as well not worry about peoples' rights if you think that morale is a bigger issue.</p>

<p>To defend wheelah

[QUOTE]

attending USNA is VOLUNTARY. The rules and expectations are provided in a catalogue for review prior to submitting an application. If you do not like the customs and traditions, the classes, the parades, etc then do not apply. Once you become a member of the Brigade you are required to abide by the rules, the customs and traditions, etc. Why is this so hard to understand? The freedom of choice is there. But once the decision is made, live with the results.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>When you join the military, you still have limited Constitutional rights....the right to freedom of religion is not restricted by any means. In fact, pretty much, the only right that is restricted is freedom of speech.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]

I don't like grad/dad's stance on this at all. I'm not just going to "drink the punch" if I don't feel something is right. You shouldn't have to "blindly" sign on to something if you don't agree with it. Certain aspects of midshipmen life are changed BY THE MIDSHIPMEN, AND NOT THE ADMINISTRATION. The honor system and the way companies are run are just a few things that come to mind.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>That is what you should be doing. If you feel something is wrong, consult your chain-of-command. Officers are paid more and inheret more privileges because of the responsibility and the decisions made. The "I simply was following an order" is not an excuse for an officer. Read/recount what ADM Mullen spoke about at graduation....he really had a great speech....challenge your leaders, but when the decision is finally made and voices are heard, embrace/support your boss (unless it is illegal or immoral).</p>

72

<p>currentmid, jadler, wheelah, gonavyxc; Are you opposed to noon prayer in King Hall because A. being subjected to prayer offends you; or B. You feel that it violates the constitutional rights of you and/or your shipmates?</p>

<p>jadler; On every USN ship that I have ever been on, as recent as just last year, the chaplain conducted an evening prayer just prior to 'light's out'. When you are on such a ship, perhaps only those with chaplains, will you object?</p>

73

<p>It seems like I'm the only mid on the forum who is in support of the noon meal prayer. And I have never once seen someone be judged for not praying.
Do y'all object to saying the Pledge of Allegiance once every few days because it says "one nation under God"? I doubt it. But some of you may not say those words and I don't care if you don't. Don't say them. Just like you don't have to say the prayer, just be respectful.</p>

74

<p>"Do y'all object to saying the Pledge of Allegiance once every few days because it says "one nation under God"? "</p>

<p>"Tradition" would dictate that we go BACK to "one nation, indivisible..." "G-d" was added in the 50s. "G-d" was added to the money in the late 1800s as well...you're right...lets go back to "tradition" Men supporting their wives and children, men earning the paycheck, women without education, blacks without education, ...yeah...life was so much better then...NOT!</p>

<p>I'm glad YOU don't "see" people judging others who do not pray....doesn't mean that it is not happening. I assure you that it IS. Just because YOU may be enlightened and tolerant, doesn't mean the guy next to you is. As I said...all it takes is a few to ruin the party. But that isn't the point...the point is NO ONE is denying you your right to pray....PRIVATELY....it is when it is done PUBLICALLY and initiated by a GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY that it gives the appearance of STATE SPONSORED RELIGION which is what many people are against. You want respect? Respect those that DO NOT believe as you do and who DO NOT preclude your right to pray privately.</p>

75

<p>
[quote]
I just don't think the government will be able to explain how a forced noon meal prayer has a valid military objective which supersedes the Constitution.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>According to the First Amendment to the Constitution:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I Argue that a voluntary and non-denominational prayer before noon meal neither prohibits the "free exercise" or constitutes an act "respecting an establishment" of religion by the government.</p>

<p>
[quote]
6. It is there very nature of state sponsored religion that led to that Nazi regime in Germany prior to the outbreak of WW2.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Aside from ignoring the absolute ignorance of this statement in relation to the rise of Nazi Germany, noon prayer at USNA does not in any way foster "state sponsored religion" or as the Constitution states "an establishment of religion." Both of these statements are almost explicit in the fact that they refer to the "establishment" or "state sponsor" of a single religion. As it has already been established, noon prayer is non-denominational (dont think I ever heard the word "Jesus" in four years). A much better example of a government that encourages an "establishment" or "state sponsorship" of religion would be Great Britain where, although there are no longer any public funds going to the Church of England, both the government and religion are headed by the same person (at least nominally).</p>

<p>In relation to the free exercise of religion, the opposing argument is that non-religious midshipman are somehow guilted into praying or feel that by not praying that others are looking down on them. This is a tough question because we can all argue either way. Personally I never saw this form of discrimination. I do remember an issue that arose my firstie year with an Air Force exchange Cadet who decided every day to turn around during prayer and play with something on the table. In talking with both 1/c and 2/c friends of mine about the situation (many of whom were part of the company staff) the unanimous consensus was that theres nothing wrong with just standing at parade rest, but by purposely being a distraction the Cadet in question was not respecting other people's beliefs. In this case, the example represents the opinions of several midshipman, and is in my opinion, indicative of the Brigade as a whole. The perception of this bias against those who choose not to pray, if it holds water, shows a much deeper problem of religious intolerance among a extreme minority of midshipman, and frankly, if that is the case, the problem requires a much more effective fix. Cutting out prayer only masks the problem; it doesn't offer a solution.</p>

<p>My personal experience with the noon prayer has been positive. As far as traditions go, it is one of the most benign traditions that this Academy has. The prayers could be termed anything but offensive. Many times in my first year they were nothing more than the only kind words I may have gotten the entire day. As years passed, they were often the motivation to get me through a long day or a reminder of what we training these four years for. They could be funny and serious at the same time, and of course, the announcement of Chaplain ________ was always greeted by cheers because we knew the next words after the prayer would be
[quote]
Brigade SEATS

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That, in essence, is the positive effect that the chaplains' words often have on midshipmen</p>

76

<p>jadler03: Why does morale matter? Are you serious? I am glad I am not in your division.</p>

77

<p>Hmm....why does morale matter? jadler, you did spend 4 years in a "leadership laboratory," right?
- retention/re-enlistment rates
- time spent on sick call, or even AWOL
- advancement rates within your division
- bottom line: level of division personnel job performance</p>

<p>I'm with you, grad/dad.</p>

78

<p>A substantial argument can be made that religious activity is not a morale booster.</p>

<p>For example, look at the debacle we have here. Doesn't look like morale is aided in any way with this newfound enlightenment of a few brave midshipmen, more brave than me anyway.</p>

<p>I thought I was brave by signing my name on a letter up to feedback about this during the ac-year last year, but a few mids were courageous enough to take this to the ACLU.</p>

<p>Again, in instances like this, the mids should be making the decisions, not the administration.</p>

79

<p>


</p>

<p>Let's talk about the 'real world'. This is the purpose of the Academy, correct? To prepare officers for the fleet. After graduation, you report to the USS Abraham Lincoln. Your first evening underway, you are in your spaces with a half dozen or so of your troops. At approximately 2145, you hear the duty bosun's mate on the 1MC; "Standby for evening prayer". What are you going to do? You do look around during the prayer to the extent that it is apparent that your troops do appreciate it. You, if you had not become so jaded and cynical by being forced to adhere to it for four years at the Academy, might even come to the conclusion that it is a morale booster for the troops. Are you going to storm into the Captain's cabin and avow that the evening prayer is contrary to good order and discipline, that it is a morale killer, that it has no place on a Navy vessel even though 2/3 of your branch seem to appreciate it?</p>

<p>And why should you make this decision instead of the administration when apparently you do not even understand the full scope of this tradition. You, in no way, can comment on the effects of the evening prayer upon the enlisted people out in the fleet yet you think you have the right to make decisions. Learn to follow before attempting to change things.</p>

80

<p>First of all, my meaning of morale was focused to the prayer. If you think that morale is going to signficantly decrease because the noon meal prayer is gone....you are wrong. I guarantee that what the Supe/Dant decisions have a bigger effect on morale.</p>

<p>Second, when I was referring to the Chaplain about going over the 1MC, I meant to conduct services, not a nightly prayer. However, as I said in my first post, that if this case goes to court and the noon meal prayer is overturned, it could have affects on how other "public" prayers are conducted.</p>

<p>Am I going to tell the CO that the chaplain can't say a prayer on the 1MC? Of course not. Am I going to encourage my personnel to attend their religious services of their choice? Of course.</p>