<p>The only exception to the rules Cur is stating is debt. Business debt is legitimately realized. (I know from experience. That’s why we have FA.)</p>
<p>One example for people, using our CC knowledge, wanting a private school, we went with FAFSA only. With a school costing around $40k (so cheap for a private, right? 
) DD earned a merit scholarship because it is not HYP, it is “lower tier”; however, even with a low EFC we will be paying around $15-20k ourselves. I don’t think that was gapped, but it was a large chunk of loans, which schools consider financial aid, but I consider my contribution.</p>
<p>I think that is one of the biggest issues with financial aid- considering loans aid. Years ago DD got an offer for Vassar, a $50k+ school with $15-20k EFC (profile & home equity) and $15-20k loans. No way that was a smart choice. Maybe we would have considered the sacrifice for the EFC, but it was not wise to double it with loans.</p>
<p>I think most people, until they arrive at FA, assume student loans are for the EFC, but they are not, they are in addition to the EFC.
This is why people whine and fret; if you cannot understand how “they” arrived at a $15k EFC with $60k income, and then have loans as aid, it becomes untenable, and unreasonable, and not a wise choice to make.</p>
<p>Now in fairness to our situation, there are many schools who no longer include loans, but they are very hard to gain admittance to, leaving that a double whammy of unrequited hopes- do you get in and do you get the good aid plan. Also, some schools do fill the package differently. I recall a DD getting into Baylor with a similar merit package, but their package left me with a smaller amount due…of course tuition costs have risen a great deal since then, so that may be the difference.</p>
<p>All I know is I am glad I am almost done with this, but wonder how my kids will do it in 20 years!</p>
<p>What is hard is the not knowing.</p>
<p>We have 3 kids…two will be in college next year. Everything looks great for 2008- 09, but I am always left wondering, how are they going to view us (and our small business) the following year?</p>
<p>It is enough to make you nuts.</p>
<p>My personal nuggets, for what they are worth:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Students (and some parents) need to actually read the “Cost of attendance” part of the website before applying to any college. I see a lot of students (and more than a few parents) who just…overlook…that page until after they are admitted.</p></li>
<li><p>Students and parents need to take any comments about financial aid made by an admissions person during a college presentation or the admissions website that brags about the school’s “great financial aid” with a grain of salt. The REAL question they need to raise their hand and ask is: “What percentage of your admitted students have their full demonstrated financial need met?” If you ever want to stop an admissions person dead in their tracks, try asking that question right at a school that gaps right after the admissions officer has gone on and on about their “wonderful financial aid.” While you’re at it, ask them about the average student debt upon graduation, and the average PLUS loans of families of graduates. 99% of college admissions officers will hem and haw and eventually say they don’t know. That’s when you should find out on your own (College Board, College Navigator, UCAN-network.org, US News premium edition). </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Ask those questions at the start, before your child decides where to apply. And, make sure you listen to the answer and BELIEVE it. If a school only meets demonstrated need for 56% of students, it’s a good bet that all of the “negotiating” in the world won’t get your financial aid package boosted up if you don’t like it. If a school’s average debt on graduation is much higher than the national average (currently around $20,000), it’s a good bet your child’s will be as well.</p>
<p>And, be sure to ask about how loans, merit scholarships, and institutional grants might change after freshman year when the school inevitably will raise their price.</p>
<ol>
<li>EVERY junior and parent-of-juniors should be sitting down in the next month with their 2008 tax return in hand at the FAFSA4caster.ed.gov site and the College Board financial aid Profile calculator and sticking those numbers in to see what the government and colleges say they can pay. If the number is impossible for your family, adjust expectations accordingly or focus on schools with merit scholarships. Even colleges that meet full demonstrated need don’t guarantee to meet YOUR definition of full need.</li>
</ol>
<p>On the other hand, while the initial EFC number might scare you to death, now is a very good time to start adjusting your budget and spending so that it might actually be do-able.</p>
<ol>
<li>Every family needs to understand that the most attractive financial aid packages at the vast majority of private schools go to the applicants that the school finds most attractive. It’s called enrollment management through financial aid leveraging. If financial assistance is important to you, you absolutely have to ask these two questions:</li>
</ol>
<ul>
<li>What does my child have to offer that might be rare or sought after by colleges? Which college or group of colleges are most likely to want to “buy” what my student has to offer.</li>
</ul>
<p>Think broadly. Good grades and test scores are not all that rare at the top colleges.</p>
<p>Too many people forget that the college admissions transaction is a two way street. And, yes, it is a transaction. Plan accordingly.</p>
<ol>
<li>If your family honestly can’t swing the EFC, don’t assume it can be reduced with “outside scholarships” at every college. A good number of schools will apply those outside scholarships to the institutional grants and loans before they’ll let you use them to bring down your EFC. </li>
</ol>
<p>Again, plan accordingly.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Finally, don’t assume that your local state university is going to end up being the cheapest option. It might. But, it may not, especially in states where the budget is squeezed. It never hurts to play some other cards as well.</p></li>
<li><p>There are MANY colleges where each student can be happy and successful. Keep repeating that to your children, and don’t get too hooked into the “only one dream college” or “only certain schools are good enough for my wonderful kid” mentality. The dream college should be picked after you have the financial aid offers on the table.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>good advice, carolyn.</p>
<p>I recall my D, early in the process. We had just visited a very nice, well-known and selective school…there was nothing we didn’t like, except for the fact that they really didn’t give merit aid. DD was annoyed that we had even looked at it, b/c she knew we didn’t qualify for finaid in the amount that would have made the school possible.</p>
<p>She was our first child and we were all learning. But she accepted that that school probably wasn’t in the cards for her and found another (an even better fit) that DID give merit aid.</p>
<p>It is fun to go on the Ivy-type tours and dream, or not even dream…just learn what $50,000 buys these days. Then go out and find a better bargain. ;)</p>
<p>As usual, she is the one to listen to.
Just think how many families could be helped if they would just read this instead of listening to the common wisdom - whether that’s the “Oh, he scored 2400 on the SAT, so he can get in anywhere” or the “Don’t bother to try for fin aid if you live in this town - you won’t get any”</p>
<p>
This is the most important part of Carolyn’s excellent post. You really have to purge all those myths & questionable anecdotes from your mind before you can approach the process intelligently & rationally. Otherwise, you won’t even HEAR the facts that conflict with your preconceived notions.</p>
<p>Carolyn, thanks for the excellent advice - I am taking it to heart.</p>
<p>I thank cur for opening this thread, though I came late to posting, while viewing intermittently. Ditto to the repliers who have assisted in demythologizing and de-glamorizing this subject. How I wish that most of the posters on the ‘entitlement’ thread had visited here first with an open mind. </p>
<p>Summarizing from our own experience, and that of some others on CC:</p>
<p>Myths:</p>
<p>(1) ‘Full ride’ means you pay Zero to attend & survive for 4 yrs.</p>
<p>(2) ‘full ride’ means your parents pay Zero for you to attend & survive for 4 yrs.</p>
<p>(3) Zero EFC of parents AND student means both pay zero for you to attend & survive for 4 years.</p>
<p>(4) Zero EFC, and/or ‘full ride’ means that there will never be a single loan in those 4 yrs – for you or your parents. Further, you will never have to budget, calculate, be frugal, or go without during those 4 yrs, including going without travel home on occasion, etc. Unlike the rest of the world, you have no moral or practical responsibility about your 4 yr. gift. Like your wealthier college classmates who come from privileged backgrounds, you will be able to spend recreationally just like them, joining them in all their fun trips into the City, etc.</p>
<p>(5) Hard-working, low-income students who manage, with the help of sacrificial parents & perceptive admissions committees, to make it into the Accept list of elite U’s, mostly feel offensively Entitled to full financial aid, rather than inexpressibly grateful for the opportunity & the generosity of others.</p>
<p>(6) Those who have received “full” financial aid are unlikely to give back to those Alma Maters, as they consider “free” money a valueless gift.</p>
<p>(7) People in welfare lines, with no skills & no future, are prime candidates for receiving full f.a. from elite U’s.</p>
<p>(8) Most families receiving significant financial aid are liars & cheaters, with high incomes & extravagant lifestyles. (Emphasis on the words “most” and “significant”)</p>
<p>(9) Low-income families could easily take out $200,000 loans, but the colleges for some reason don’t know that yet.</p>
<p>(10) The fact that a tiny percentage of truly low-income students with exceptional talent have managed to be admitted to an equally tiny percentage of Elite U’s with high endowments & generous f.a. policies, is a major threat to the financial health of the large segment of those with better incomes, and will seriously undermine the ability of their own S’s and D’s to compete & succeed in the world of academics & beyond.</p>
<p>(11) Having attended a 4-yr Elite on a “full” ride means that low-income graduates will become rich shortly after graduation, or at least eventually.</p>
<p>(12) Someone else’s “full ride” at Desirable Elite U has an affect on whether you also get whatever aid might be logically available to you, based on the same formulas used by that same U. (i.e., The “full ride” crowd of 10 people is taking “your” aid money.)</p>
<p>Please do not laugh. It appears that these are the prevailing myths that are the underpinnings of the ‘entitlement’ thread.</p>
<p>Your sarcasm isn’t the least bit helpful, Epiphany. </p>
<p>If you are being honest about enrollment management, you’d also know that what you will qualify for in aid is absolutely tied to what others are offered. It’s a finite resource that colleges carefully dole out. It their research tells them that throwing $X at students in a particular group brings in a high enough yield, then no more is offered. If $XXX is needed to achieve an acceptable yield from another group of students, perhaps a smaller pool that is desired for whatever reason, then those students are offered $XXX and no more. All these calculations and probabilities are constantly juggled, with $$ being taken from one group to give to another. To say that aid given to one student doesn’t impact the aid given to another is just plain naive.</p>
<p>And your response is even less helpful. If you read the other thread thoroughly, my 12 points are no exaggeration. They are the basis of all the inaccuracies & exaggerations on that thread.</p>
<p>Enrollment Management affects admissions, for those schools that need to practice that. That’s why they’re called Need-Aware. I was speaking of the non-Need-Aware schools which don’t operate or base their decisions in exactly the same way. They’ve already calculated that they will have a critical mass of not only full payers but generous donors. (Ask mini.) They can then admit whomever else they want, which will include partial payers & non-payers. And if you don’t understand that, then you are the one being naive.</p>
<p>And if you don’t understand that the subject of the entitlement thread was the non-Enrollment Management colleges, then you also don’t understand the framework of the posted 12 myths above.</p>
<p>This thread invites the sharing of information as well as <em>mis</em> information. Too bad if you don’t like what I have exposed, & how I have exposed it. There’s just way too much exaggeration & mythology floating around on CC.</p>
<p>epiphany - Interesting list of myths. Although I agree with most of your points, our experience has been different on points 1 and 2. When I mention “full ride” I do mean full ride. That means that neither student or parents end up paying anything (with the exception of travel home). I can’t speak for other people’s experiences, I can only speak about ours. Did our student feel entitled to it? NO not at all. But did work hard for it and was thrilled to have several schools to choose from. Not saying this is the rule - just saying it does happen. Entitled, not entitled - who knows - but certainly would not turn it down. I believe that as a future alumni - the school can expect major contributions to their merit scholarship program in the future.</p>
<p>ST2,</p>
<p>congrats. I am glad that everything has worked out for your D.</p>
<p>Does your child have loans as part of their FA package? If yes, I personally don’t consider it a “free ride”, just 100% of your demonstrated need has been met as the loans will have to be repaid.</p>
<p>Does, your D have a gpa requirement they must keep? If yes, then the education is not free it is a quid pro quo relationship where in exchange for A , you will get B (continued financial support).</p>
<p>Did you have to pay taxes on the cost above tuition and books (which is considered taxable income to your child)? If yes, that is not a free ride?</p>
<p>I view free as being without charge; now or in the future.</p>
<p>ST2, I guess what I should have said is that it <em>can</em> be free of charge, but would depend on cost of some out-of-pocket expenses, which could vary from student to student. Some are unexpected, and can result in add’l granting (does happen), but also can result in merely a small personal loan. But it is definitely true that one has a budget. The U’s are very clear on this. You are not free to spend to the extent that your more privileged classmates are, which I find entirely acceptable, btw.
Again, the vast majority of full-ride recipients are grateful beyond belief, and, I agree with you, will give major, major if and when they can in the future. That includes Yours Truly (grateful parent), btw. So yes, I’m in agreement with you that it is possible to spend zero with a full ride package, but it is also true that there are limits to the funding. Thanks for the nice reply.:)</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Does a school even have access to this figure? I’ve always thought that THIS figure was much more relevant than how much debt an undergraduate graduates with on graduation day. Undergrad debt is often capped at the fed maximum.</p>
<p>Parental debt–that’s another story! (And plus loans don’t include home equity debt that parents may choose to take out.)</p>
<p>Epiphany, your myths are your own creation. Posters on the recent CC threads have not made these crazy claims nor have they implied that they hold these beliefs. I think it is you who needs to open her mind. Posters frustrated about college costs and their inability to qualify for aid have been viciously parodied in your post. Perhaps you should read their ACTUAL statements & try to understand their frustration without inventing ugly motivations.</p>
<p>xiggi (post #88):</p>
<p>don’t even need to build a model anymore. The feds have added an efc estimator for Juniors.</p>
<p>sybble - Answers to your questions are as follows:
- There are no loans involved.
- There is no minimum gpa involved. Something that I had never heard of before - but it seems the school has had good experiences with this policy and according to them, their “Scholars program participants” all do very well with their GPAs, so they don’t require a minimum GPA.
- Yes, I realize that there is a tax aspect - so you are right, this is an expense. Although in our case, since there is also an outside scholarship involved and the school does not deduct that from the school scholarship, the impact is minimal.</p>
<p>We also realize that the above situation was a combination of hard work and sacrifice by the student, good luck and spending a lot of time and effort preparing and researching both the financial and academic aspects of attending college. This began back in middle school for our second. Just wish we would have known a lot of this info for our first, it would have made life a lot easier. I have advised some people on CC as to a potential course of action that they might follow for the process. Fortunately it has worked for several of them. Obviously there is no universal truth concerning the process - just the fact that it does happen and it can be done.</p>
<p>Great info here, thanks a lot! (making up a Word doc of helpful posts!)</p>
<p>Wondered if I could ask a ‘basic’ (a personally-tailored) question? Son is a junior & I’m just trying to get up a plan of action here.</p>
<p>I’ve been a SAHM for a few years since my youngest (age 6) was born (w/just occasional part-time work). The (tentative) plan is that I’ll work a lot of part-time while son is a HS senior (not in my main field) while concurrently doing some job-searching for the following year, when son is in college (need to still be avail to younger child).</p>
<p>So–we’d have not a bunch to contribute the first year of school, but then I’d hope to be able to fund a decent chunck of son’s tution the next 3 years, so he’d have less of a loan burden. </p>
<p>Does that sound realistic? Or, maybe I’m overlooking some essentials of the financial aid/college process. </p>
<p>I was hoping to give son more opportunties than he’d have if we looked at our current fin. situation, by banking on my future earning capacity. Not sure if that’s a mistake on some level, though, and we should completely avoid the higher-ticketed schools?</p>
<p>This was probably too specific a question (above!). I’ll just check out the college calculators & figure it out. Helpful thread…!</p>