<p>I hear from Interesteddad that Middlebury and Swarthmore are very, very different. Almost night and day different within the context of liberal arts colleges -- location, campus culture, size, per student endowment, diversity, athletics, social scene, post-grad career paths, and so forth. </p>
<p>Would love to hear more.</p>
<p>Size: Middlebury is at the high end of the LAC scale at 2300 students. Swarthmore is towards the low end at 1475.</p>
<p>Location: Middlebury is extremely rural in the middle of Vermont, a long way from any urban area. Swarthmore is a near-suburban neighborhood in an urban area of 5 million with easy train access to Philly, D.C., and NYC and non-stop discount air travel to most of the country.</p>
<p>Per student endowment (June 2005): Swarthmore $790,000 per student. Middlebury $306,000 per student.</p>
<p>Diversity: </p>
<p>African American - Swat 7% Midd 3%
Asian American - Swat 15% Midd 7%
Latino/a - Swat 10% Midd 5%
Intl - Swat 6% Midd 9%
White - Swat 61% Midd 76%</p>
<p>% receiving financial aid: Swat 48% Midd 44%</p>
<p>Percentage of grads getting PhDs over the last ten years:
Swat: 21.1%
Midd: 6%</p>
<p>Campus culture: Swarthmore is an intensely academic place where the students and faculty are unusually engaged in teaching and learning. The drinking scene, while certainly present like any college, is well below average. The athletic scene is somewhat below average, with no football team. Middlebury is known as fairly heavy jock school...they are in line to finally win the overall national Div III championship over Williams this year. It's preppier with a more dominant party/drinking scene than Swarthmore (largely a function of its wealthier, whiter student body along with the rural location). Swarthmore tends to attract kids who enjoy having access to urban areas, even if they don't take advantage of it all the time. So, you'll see more political involvement and a somewhat higher interest in social service, diversity issues, and so forth.</p>
<p>Middlebury is best known academically for its language programs. Swarthmore is excellent across the board, but has a real strength in social sciences. It produces more social science, poli sci, and econ PhDs (per graduate) than any other college or university in the country.</p>
<p>Several things that define Swarthmore are its honors program, its unusually strong community (students, faculty, and administration), the fact that freshmen live in regular dorms from the start, and the policy that all on-campus events are free to all students. </p>
<p>Swarthmore's mission statement is a good place to start learning about the college:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Objectives and Purposes</p>
<p>Swarthmore students are expected to prepare themselves for full, balanced lives as individuals and as responsible citizens through exacting intellectual study supplemented by a varied program of sports and other extracurricular activities. The purpose of Swarthmore College is to make its students more valuable human beings and more useful members of society. Although it shares this purpose with other educational institutions, each school, college, and university seeks to realize that purpose in its own way. Swarthmore seeks to help its students realize their fullest intellectual and personal potential combined with a deep sense of ethical and social concern.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Those diversity stats for Middlebury are several years old IDad . The class of 2011 will be comprised of 60% white americans, 27% american minorities, and 13% internationals. You can check 2010 stats on College Board. 2009 stats were about identical to 2010. The class of 2008, however, is far less diverse. A new dean of admissions was appointed in 2005 who has made diversification a central goal of the admissions process at Middlebury. Midd still trails swat in this area (not that it is or should be a competition), but not by much.</p>
<p>Middlebury's Mission Statement</p>
<p>At Middlebury College we challenge students to participate fully in a vibrant and diverse academic community. The College's Vermont location offers an inspirational setting for learning and reflection, reinforcing our commitment to integrating environmental stewardship into both our curriculum and our practices on campus. Yet the College also reaches far beyond the Green Mountains, offering a rich array of undergraduate and graduate programs that connect our community to other places, countries, and cultures. We strive to engage students' capacity for rigorous analysis and independent thought within a wide range of disciplines and endeavors, and to cultivate the intellectual, creative, physical, ethical, and social qualities essential for leadership in a rapidly changing global community. Through the pursuit of knowledge unconstrained by national or disciplinary boundaries, students who come to Middlebury learn to engage the world.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Those diversity stats for Middlebury are several years old IDad .
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No they aren't. They are the statistics, for both Swarthmore and Middlebury, from the fall of 2005, the most recent year published in the latest US News data.</p>
<p>Here are the statistics for degree-seeking undergrads from last fall from both schools' 2006-07 Common Data Sets:</p>
<p>Middlebury:
African American 2.9%
Asian American 8.9%
Latino/a 6.2%
International 9.8%
white (and unknown) 71.5%</p>
<p>Swarthmore:
African American 8.8%
Asian American 15.9%
Latino/a 10.4%
International 6.0%
white (and unknown) 58.2%</p>
<p>
[quote]
The class of 2011 will be comprised of 60% white americans, 27% american minorities, and 13% internationals.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nobody can say what the freshmen classes for the fall of 2007 will look like because those classes have not yet been finalized! The numbers you are citing are probably the breakdown of the accepted students, which is very different than the enrolled students.</p>
<p>For example, the accepted students for next fall's freshman class at Swarthmore break down as follows:</p>
<p>African American 15%
Asian American 22%
Latino/a 15%
International 6%
white (and unknown) 41%</p>
<p>However, it is unlikely that the final enrolled class will end up quite that diverse as African American and Hispanic students yield at significantly lower rates than white students and Asian Americans yield at slightly lower rates than whites. </p>
<p>However, last fall's freshman class ended up being 12% African American, which tied Swarthmore's record as the highest percentage ever enrolled for a freshman class at a highly ranked liberal arts college. It also equaled the high water mark set by UNC-CH for the highest percentage at a highly ranked university. Latino/a students were 11% of the freshman class. 17% for Asian Americans.</p>
<p>Middlebury is a fine school, but diversity is not its strong suit, for reasons that probably have to do with both location and campus culture, along with enrolling more full-pay students. However, diversity is just one of many criteria that may or may not be important to an individual applicant.</p>
<p>Swarthmore has a very strong commitment to diversity, not just in admissions, but in the faculty, the dean's office, and the campus culture. If diversity is an important criteria, then Swarthmore would be a prime school to consider. If not...then, an applicant should probably scratch Swarthmore off the list -- it might not be the campus culture he or she is looking for (and, frankly, because it's harder than heck for white students to get accepted).</p>
<p>well i'm going to Middlebury but I'm a language freak.
and one of my good friends is going to Swathmore.
i wish we were already there so i could give a better comparison.
you know what i would chose, but good luck!</p>
<p>I think you'll like Middlebury. Our daughter is a rising Junior at Swarthmore but attended Middlebury last summer in an immersive Chinese language course. It served her very well back at Swarthmore this past year. Language seems to be a forte of Middlebury. Burlington, VT. is about 50 minutes up the road and is the nearest airport city. Be prepared for a world class winter, though (I saw your location). Lots of sports - cycling, equestrian, mountaineering, water sports on the lake.</p>
<p>Burlington is a very nice city and I believe Middlebury runs shuttles there during the year but don't take that to the bank.</p>
<p>Middlebury is a very neat little town, too. I'm an avid cyclist, the little 'burg had 3 bike shops! (my hometown of Murray, much larger, has none.)</p>
<p>Gonzo:</p>
<p>Vermont is beautiful. Be sure to figure out a way to spend at least one summer there. As an Alabamian, you'll think you've died and gone to heaven to throw the windows open and have a nice cool breeze in the middle of summer.</p>
<p>Middlebury has a prettier setting and a much more lively college town, but it is totally isolated from the rest of the world. It's probably stronger for languages but Swarthmore is stronger for pretty much everything else. Middlebury is significantly larger in size, however, Swarthmore is arguably more diverse and also is in close proximity to many other colleges (and more people in general).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Middlebury has a prettier setting and a much more lively college town, but it is totally isolated from the rest of the world.
[/quote]
Swarthmore is just as effectively isolated from the rest of the world as Middlebury, despite what one might think, given its proximity to a major city. In truth, suburban Philadelphia is a cultural wasteland, and is totally miserable. Most Swarthmore students are quite isolated, and very much shut into their ivory tower. Most rarely venture off campus and, even when they do, the forays are limited on account of the area's poor public transportation and slim offerings for college students. So, if isolation is a factor in deciding between Swarthmore and Middlebury, don't let the former's proximity to Philadelphia be given much value.</p>
<p>My daughter and her classmates at Swarthmore go to Philadelphia quite often for a variety of reasons. The train station to go to Philadelphia is almost on the campus, and the train ride is very short.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My daughter and her classmates at Swarthmore go to Philadelphia quite often for a variety of reasons. The train station to go to Philadelphia is almost on the campus, and the train ride is very short.
[/quote]
What is "quite often" and what are "a variety of reasons?" In terms of the train ride, what is "very short?"</p>
<p>Tutoring in Chinatown, eating in Chinatown, going to the Art Museum, going to Reading Terminal Market for fun on a Saturday (they are into food), attending an event on the Ben Franklin Parkway for Philadelphia area college students on a Saturday, attending a ballet for free (courtesy of the teacher of a ballet class taken for P.E. requirement). These are just examples that I can remember off the top of my head. </p>
<p>The train ride from Swarthmore to Philadelphia is approximately 30 minutes (plus or minus) depending on which of the three train stations in Philly you go to and weekend vs. weekday. I checked the schedule online (SEPTA R3 line)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Tutoring in Chinatown, eating in Chinatown, going to the Art Museum, going to Reading Terminal Market for fun on a Saturday (they are into food), attending an event on the Ben Franklin Parkway for Philadelphia area college students on a Saturday, attending a ballet for free (courtesy of the teacher of a ballet class taken for P.E. requirement). These are just examples that I can remember off the top of my head.</p>
<p>The train ride from Swarthmore to Philadelphia is approximately 30 minutes (plus or minus) depending on which of the three train stations in Philly you go to and weekend vs. weekday. I checked the schedule online (SEPTA R3 line)
[/quote]
Your anecdotal evidence is all well and good, but these are all things that require a 30 minute train ride back and forth (plus even more transit time from the station in question to Chinatown or the ballet or whatever else) and say nothing of the severe lack of culture in Swarthmore's immediate vicinity. Middlebury has a far nicer college town than Swarthmore, and suburban Philadelphia really is quite a wasteland. And, all in all, Philadelphia is quite inconvenient when compared to other cities in the American northeast. Furthermore, I would argue your daughter and her friends are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to Swarthmore students venturing into Philadelphia to see the ballet or tutor in Chinatown or so on, at least in terms of frequency. Most of them get to the airport a few times per year, with one or two more trips thrown in, but that's about it. They are still very effectively isolated from the rest of the world during their years at Swarthmore, where the overwhelming majority of their time is spent on campus, and not even in the surrounding town, save for those few who live in an apartment right across the street from campus.</p>
<p>Lectures at Penn, concerts, dinners out, etc.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lectures at Penn, concerts, dinners out, etc.
[/quote]
Great. Are you going to deny that, when compared to other colleges and universities, the typical Swarthmore student spends far more time on campus than do the typical students at other academic institutions? This is what I mean by effective isolation. A UPenn student gets far more use out of Philadelphia, for example, than a Swarthmore student gets out of Swarthmore. Similarly, a Middlebury student gets far more use out of Burlington than a Swarthmore student gets out of the entire Philadelphia metropolitan area.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most Swarthmore students are quite isolated, and very much shut into their ivory tower.
[/quote]
At Swarthmore it is a matter of personality and personal preferences. Some students hardly ever leave the campus, others go to Philadelphia every weekend. It's up to you to choose.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At Swarthmore it is a matter of personality and personal preferences. Some students hardly ever leave the campus, others go to Philadelphia every weekend. It's up to you to choose.
[/quote]
Not really. Can freshmen and sophomores easily get parking permits now or something? Suppose I want to go somewhere that isn't serviced by SEPTA? The personality argument is a weak one because, yes, sure, there are some people for whom the offerings in Philadelphia are appealing and there are some people for whom the limited schedule and capabilities of SEPTA are not a problem, but so what? Other areas have more offerings for people of more varied personalities and, as such, instill more of a connection with the outside world than is found at Swarthmore. Other areas don't require a 30 minute train ride plus whatever other transportation hassles to get you to a destination off campus where you want to visit. Other areas don't require you to wait for the weekend to get off campus. You can just walk out into the town or city in which the college is located and find plenty to do. Such is simply not the case at Swarthmore, and, to add to this, Philadelphia is limited and inconvenient compared to other American cities of its size.</p>
<p>In the case specific to this thread, of Middlebury vs. Swarthmore in terms of isolation, I still don't see anything convincing that says the Middlebury student is effectively more isolated than the Swarthmore student. Middlebury has the superior immediate environments, while Swarthmore ostensibly has the superior nearby large city.</p>
<p>A.E., I don't know what your big point is. If you know Philadelphia, you know that Chinatown is right next to one of the train stations. Another station is near Penn. There are many points of interest within easy walking distance of the train stations in Philly. In any city, once you get off the train at the station, you will need to walk some distance to your destination, obviously.</p>
<p>SEPTA may not be great but in terms of access to a city, Swat's 30-minute train ride is far superior to the alternative at Midd (a several-hour car ride to get to Boston, which is comparable to Philadelphia in size). </p>
<p>Neither school is urban. Students who want an urban LAC should look elsewhere. Swarthmore, being in the suburbs, does have better access to a major city, while Midd is a typical rural school in that there's more outdoorsy space and opportunity for activities like skiiing and hiking. Natural beauty of different sorts is plentiful at both.</p>
<p>
The point is that a student at Swarthmore is not really any less isolated than a student at Middlebury. Middlebury's vastly superior immediate environment at least balances out Swarthmore's proximity to Philadelphia, especially given the latter's many limitations and inconveniences. Electing to go to Swarthmore over Middlebury on account of some presumed superior connection to the rest of the world and less isolated environment would be an error. A potential student should look to other factors to decide between the two schools.
To be fair, Montreal is closer than Boston.</p>