<p>Interesteddad, it's completely possible to be attracted to two very different kinds of schools for different reasons. I never really looked at Berkeley, but before I applied ED to Swarthmore I toured Michigan, which is about as opposite as you can get. I liked a lot of things about it, and I don't see what's wrong with that. I didn't think that the school was in any way similar to Swarthmore, but I found a huge school tempting in its own way. Everyone is ultimately trying to find a college that will educate them and make them happy. Both large and small schools have great ways of doing that, and some people would probably do equally well at either one.</p>
<p>Yep. My daughter visited two large state universities. If we were talking April of junior year, I think every student should be considering a large university and a LAC. However, the end of April senior year is pretty late in the game to still be stuck on such a fundamental choice between diametrically opposed types of colleges. I mean, Swarthmore and Berkeley are as dissimilar as they can possibly be. </p>
<p>I do think internationals who haven't visited have it tough. I can't imagine a student doing an overnight visit at Swat and at Berkeley and not having a clear preference in one direction or another. I think our Korean friend needs to just sit down and really think about the type of college experience she envisions.</p>
<p>I don't really disagree with you, but I can see how it could happen. In some ways the decision between very different schools is the hardest kind. When comparing LACs with LACs, for instance, it's easier to look at small details that distinguish one school from another. If you want to study biology, you probably go to the school with the better bio department- or maybe the one with the better weather or food. When you're stuck on a fundamental difference like that between Swarthmore and Berkeley, all those little factors seem irrelevant. Trying to make a logical decision becomes a lot harder, and you just have to instinctually choose which of two situations that you've never really experienced is right for you, which isn't much more than an educated guess.</p>
<p>Right. That's why I was trying to highlight a couple of very real big picture differences that she might not have thought of, both as an international going to school halfway around the world and as a student interested in sciences/art.</p>
<p>I might point out that 17 students from South Korea were accepted to Swarthmore this year (no idea how many will be attending but it's at least 4 or 5, probably more). So there is definitely a bigger Korean community at Berkeley (heck, everything is bigger at Berkeley) but it's not like she'll be totally isolated and culturally alone at Swat either.</p>
<p>I've actually attended both Berkeley and Swat. They're completely different schools, but both have positive features. I was at Berkeley for 10 weeks this past summer doing an intensive ancient Greek program (thanks to Swat!) and enjoyed my time there. It's a LOT more social than Swat and has so much more going on. Berkeley, CA is the perfect college town and there's so much to do there that is aimed at college students. While the social life was great, the academic experience is a lot more impersonal. Swat's got smaller classes as well as more cerebral people who are really excited about their classes, and that's not as common at Berkeley. However, if the OP is Korean, from what I could tell when I was there, there was a HUGE Asian community. So if that's what she's looking for, she'll fit right in. So, in other words, if you're looking for an awesome social life, Berkeley's the way to go, but if getting a super-intense education is more important - Swat's better all day long.</p>
<p>I would personally choose Swarthmore because it has far better undergraduate education than UC Berkeley</p>
<p>I am a high school senior who chose Swat over UCBerkeley. Here's why:
-UCBerkeley grad school is aMAZing. UCBerkeley undergrad...eh, less so. It's partially a size issue, but this shouldn't be a problem for students who are extremely self-motivated in terms of seeking opportunities, etc. But I think you'd have to try harder for that access.
-Because of the Quaker influences at Swat, the sense of community is nice, and the students have so much say in what goes on on their campus (like, they get to help choose new professors to hire), and the school, to a greater extent, really respects their initiative and provides resources (students can apply for very large grants for self-created projects)
-It's not like Swat lacks diversity...in fact, Swat might be MORE diverse than Berkeley, in that the student body isn't almost entirely white/Asian. Moreover, Swat has a significant international student population.
-The support at Swat is amazing. Individualized career help, writing help, you name it. Is helpful when going so far from home.</p>
<p>the undergrad education at UCs, especially berkeley, really leaves something to be desired. There is no sense of community at Berkeley and people very much either work all day or drink all day - there is no middle of the road.</p>
<p>This is probably useless as the OP probably has already made her decision but these are my thoughts. I'm currently a student at Swarthmore but I have spent alot of time at Berkeley on breaks as my high school sent over 70 students to Berkeley.</p>
<p>Pros about Swarthmore/Cons about Berkeley:
*The (over-hyped) warm, fuzzy community feeling. (My roommate last year had a friend at Berkeley who was miserable because she had alot of trouble making friends. Seeing as most of my friends from high school at UCB are still friends with the same people they were friends with before college, I can understand how it might be difficult to make new friends. Some people already have their comfortable friend-groups and its hard to "get in". HOWEVER, the population at Berkeley is much, much more diverse, when it comes to types of personality. And, given that there are just more people, it seems that one would have a much higher chance of finding good friends at Berkeley if one wasn't the "Swarthmore type". My observation has been that at big schools, its harder to form a group of friends, but once groups are formed, they are much tighter than those at Swat.)</p>
<p>*Profs care. (My professors not only know my name, but they tease me about my boyfriend, invite me to go trick-or-treating with their kids, etc. My friends at Berkeley have gotten close to the one or two professors that they research with but its much easier at Swarthmore.)</p>
<p>*Distribution requirements/Courses. (Its much easier at Swat to take whatever you want. The distribution requirements and the major requirements are less strict. However, Berkeley has alot of classes that are not offered at Swarthmore. For example, my friend is taking a class about Disney which makes me jealous. :) And of course, the stricter major path at Berkeley means that people who graduate from Berkeley are more ready to go directly into the work-field. But, Swatties seem more prepared for grad school since they've spent so much more time developing general academic skills.)</p>
<p>*Non-competitiveness. At Swarthmore, I rarely hear people compare grades. As sappy as it sounds, no one here is motivated by getting A's. In contrast, I heard a rumor that Berkeley's science classes have separate lab grades because people sabotaged classmate's labs in order to fix the curve.</p>
<p>Pro's about Berkeley/Con's about Swarthmore:
*The city. (I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, the town of Berkeley. There are so many great cheap eats, indie dollar stores, interesting festivals... Also, San Francisco is about as far from Berkeley as Philly is from Swat so you can get big city excitement from both places. Berkeley is a popular spot for touring artists, especially independent artists. The ville at Swarthmore is cute but not very exciting.)</p>
<p>*The prestige. Everyone knows and respects a Berkeley degree. Swarthmore is only good for certain elite schools.</p>
<p>*Lack of bubble-ness. After being at Swarthmore for a while you start to forget about the outside world. Sometimes, even leaving campus to go to Target for new toothpaste can become a huge event. My friends at Berkeley have made alot of friends who are not college students. I think that its important to keep you perspective at college and Swatties are generally very wrapped up in being a Swattie.</p>
<p>Other thoughts:
*The Asian community at Swat pales in comparison to that at Berkeley. Meaning, at Berkeley you can get alot of different kinds of real Chinese, Thai, Korean, Japanese food and there are groups for ethnic dance, music, etc.</p>
<p>*Research is very competitive at Berkeley and many students who research will work for free for at least a year so that they can even begin considering paid positions. Research is much easier to get at Swarthmore (it seems Swat will fund you for a summer to do practically anything) but it is not going to be anywhere near the caliber of projects that are being done at Berkeley.</p>
<p>*How difficult a course is really varies. I think that Berkeley's upper-level classes taken by top students are much more intense than anything I've experience at Swat. But, there are a whole slew of classes at Berkeley that are for non-majors and are basically a joke compared to the light Swarthmore classes which still require alot of work. Also, given that students at Berkeley come from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds, the expectations of your high school foundation are a little different.</p>
<p>*If the aid packages work out so that tuition is similar for both schools, then Swat provides students alot more. There is alot of money here for clubs, research, random projects. Also, almost all the activities here are free.</p>
<p>So yeah. Basically, I think people who are really Swatties would be happier at Swat but most people would be happier at Berkeley.</p>