<p>While I personally love the writing program–it’s just my kind of educational theory in practice–I’ve heard enough students say that it’s only marginally helpful to them. I would rather funding be cut from Writing Associates than from Honors external examiners, for example.</p>
<p>santeria - Some people have no strong gut feelings between their two final choices, or would be comfortable at both for different reasons. Believe it or not, some people truly don’t know where they would be “happiest”–and others, favoring the pragmatic, would choose, say, a school with good weather over a school where they’d feel marginally happier. Still others would choose the most diverse community, and Swarthmore is more diverse than Haverford by most measures (political diversity is similarly lacking at Haverford due to Quaker values).</p>
<p>I am in favor of going with one’s gut. But what if one’s gut decides to take the month off?</p>
<p>So you know some people who were accepted at both places, and that’s enough for you to believe there is very little difference academically? Great logic, guy. As for Harvard being better than Yale or Williams being better than Swarthmore, that’s a matter for a different thread. When it comes to Swarthmore and Haverford, though, the Lakers-Clippers analogy definitely holds. I would also guess that Harvard, Yale, and Williams are all also superior to Haverford in every imaginable way.</p>
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<p>So there you go. Swarthmore students did better than Haverford students on the SAT by about 50 points. That’s one metric by which we could surmise that Haverford students are not as bright as Swarthmore students. Another good metric is to take a class or two at Haverford or Brynn Mawr and see how LOL it is. Has anyone else had this experience?</p>
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<p>Let’s not kid ourselves. Both have entirely mediocre social scenes. It’s also likely that Haverford is far more laid-back than Swarthmore but, then again, almost anywhere would be. It’s hard to find a bigger bunch of very uptight and highly opinionated people than you do at Swarthmore.</p>
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<p>It’s inevitable that he is going to start looking down on you. If he hasn’t already.</p>
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<p>Allusions to Churchill quotes aside, I think it goes without saying that conservatism is inherently anti-intellectual and, in most cases, outright moronic. It is morally correct to hold the likes of the religious right, Sarah Palin, neocons, homophobes, Monsanto, Provo, Utah, and so on in disdain. I can’t even begin to accept such points of view as valid or beneficial to society, so I would rather they not be on the faculty of my college or be fellow students. In this regard, Swarthmore has done a pretty good job. I don’t think admitting stupid people is the kind of diversity for which an elite college should strive.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure about this whole “amazing” professors thing. Swarthmore has its fair share of good and bad professors, but amazing professors are decidedly few in number. That said, Haverford is still a rung or two below.</p>
<p>Also, because I feel kind of bad for derailing the OP’s thread twice, I’ll add my two cents. All things being equal, go with your gut. Everything interesteddad said is true: Overall, Swarthmore has better facilities and a larger endowment; the URM and international student population is also larger. However, I got that same “cold” feeling when I visited Swarthmore, and I really haven’t looked back. I’m deciding between Haverford and Reed right now, two schools that just felt right when visiting. Fact is, Swarthmore and Haverford are great schools. Assuming you do well at Haverford, upon graduation you’ll have just as many opportunities available to you as a student who does well at Swarthmore. Stop splitting hairs and go with what feels rights.</p>
<p>max: A.E. may very well be a dick, but someone has to tell the truth.</p>
<p>this is just my opinion, but i disagree with all the kumbaya stuff about swat and haverford both being elite schools and that we should all leave it at that. i can agree that swat is an elite school. most people know where i stand on this. if everyone were to go with their “gut” on deciding which school to attend, then why ask any questions whatsoever. visit each place and go with your gut. it is obvious that the op wants something insightful that he/she can’t find on these boards or in other literature. i will endeavor to give it a go. first off, this tri-co thing is somewhat overrated as far as swat is concerned. i will admit that i have taken a class at one of the other institutions and i can confirm that the class i took there is not as rigorous as the easiest class i have taken at swat. that may just be the nature of the class that i took, but the general concensus of the other students in the class was how difficult and strenuous the class was. on a different note, there is something that i have found interesting and that is, bm students, for the most part, gravitate towards swat social parties over functions held at hc. granted, my personal power of persuasion may have something to do with it, but most people i know at bm call about swat parties before checking out the social calendar at hc. sure, hc has some major events that attract bm kids, but when there are no major events at hc or swat, the ladies tend to choose swat. so, how is this info useful? for the ladies attending swat, not so much. for the others? if you can’t figure it out, then hc is the place for you.</p>
<p>Here’s something I was waiting to throw into the thread. It will definitely change the nature of your replies, and perhaps illicit some comments along the lines of “You are so dumb why are you even bothering to ask this question?” (To which I’d reply: I’m decisive and an instigator. What can I say?).</p>
<p>I was a student at Swarthmore for almost a semester. I left for a heaping handful of reasons (bad roommate situation; poor job picking my classes; messy relationship trouble; constant health problems; dislike of “work hard play hard” mentality; the feeling that many of the people in my smaller classes were more into hearing their own voices than listening to their peers; the sense of self-importance that I felt many people carried around; the lack of general human concern that many people I saw had for each other–nb: This is a TOTALLY subjective and debatable criterion, so judge my impression as you will; what I perceived as a disappointingly fractious campus culture–again, debatable; the disturbing incidents of sexual assaults (girls being unwillingly groped and grabbed at parties) and the culture of silence around this–nb: Probably happens everywhere. Again, a possible moot point.); the feeling that the climate was more academic than it was intellectual (a specious distinction I’ll admit, but what I mean by this is that, while many swatties are indeed quite cerebral, one’s ability to thoughtfully reflect on one’s work and truly savor learning was, in effect, crushed by the sheer quantity of it all), and, by and large the greatest factor, my doubts going into swarthmore.</p>
<p>now, from my current vantage point, i see that there were many things I could have done differently to better enjoy and reap the benefits of swat (change roommates, pick classes better, sleep more, work more efficiently). i’m just wondering how much of what i disliked about swarthmore was a creation of my constantly being tired and having doubts in the first place, and how much was truly representative of the place. not that anyone here can really answer this for me. but perhaps some of you will have insights on the struggles of first semester, the importance of “gut feelings,” and the degree to which time can help you come to enjoy a school.</p>
<p>and for the record: i really did like haverford when i first visited campus. but when i first visited campus was in the middle of my really not liking swat, and i’m concerned my “haverlove” was really just me needing a break from being on swarthmore campus. my concerns about haverford are mostly regarding its comparative lack of diversity and lack of funds, and the possibility of benign conformism arising from the honor code.</p>
<p>p.s. please don’t criticize me for being indecisive and finding fault in each school. it’s a problem. i know.</p>
<p>I can’t speak to your roommate situation, your particular choice of classes (though there are a lot more duds at Swarthmore than a reasonable person would expect), your relationship, or how you had constant health problems, but I agree with a lot of what you said about campus culture. Yes, students at Swarthmore are more interested in hearing their own voices than listening to their peers (or even their professors). Self-importance is common, but not to degree different than you would find at any elite college. On the groping and sexual assault front, I’m sure ID will roll out some statistics that show that Swarthmore is better than average in that department. Yes, Swarthmore is more academic than intellectual. Professors are quick to dismiss creative thinking and different points of view as unsophisticated and illegitimate, and are more interested in adhering to standard academic thought. They are far less interested in helping you develop your own ideas than they are in cramming 4,000 pages of canon down your throat. Likewise, they’re quick to dismiss students altogether if they’re not interested in the honors program or if they show a clear disinterest in going to graduate school in their particular area. There is tremendous pressure at Swarthmore to be an academic, but virtually none to be an intellectual. I don’t think the distinction you have discerned is a specious one at all. And, yes, the workload is sometimes just plain stupid. I have mentioned before how I believe it is often used by professors to cover up for a lack of strong teaching skills.</p>
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<p>It’s not easy to pick classes well at Swarthmore, especially not in your first year. Professors are so hit-or-miss, and it’s often very hard to get good information about them (especially as a first year). In your first year, there is a certain degree of pressure to start working on some of the required courses for your supposed major and to knock out some of the distribution requirements. This invariably leads to a terrible schedule, over which you have virtually no control; this was particularly inconvenient for me, as I have always been nocturnal by nature (so I can empathize with your sleep problems). Maybe this is a phenomenon that isn’t specific to Swarthmore, but I get the feeling it is more pronounced there than at other places. This can definitely be compounded by the wide disparity in dorm quality. I got stuck in the worst dorm “on campus” my first year, and it definitely didn’t help matters.</p>
<p>Maybe it’s a rite of passage or something, the whole first semester at college. At some schools it’s more about drinking, sex, hazing rituals, and so on, but at Swarthmore it’s all about making academics incredibly tedious and seeing who has the mettle to bulldoze through it. To the triumphant go the spoils: seven more semesters of tedium, mitigated only by the ability to select classes that don’t convene at the most inconvenient hours possible.</p>
<p>It sounds like a lot of your problems were bad luck. You can’t really help it if you get stuck with some crappy roommate. You can try to get out of the situation, but it still represents a pain in the ass that two roommates who get along really well never experience. To some degree the same can be said for your relationship and, I assume, your poor health (especially if it was brought on by Sharples, which is entirely possible). I can’t offer you much in the way of advice or insight except to say that, unless you’re extremely passionate about something in particular, you should just choose the easiest major that interests you and spend a most of your time at college socializing and screwing around. I made the mistake of choosing a ludicrously difficult major. My only accomplishment was being the decisive victor in many games of misery poker with my friends who chose easier majors.</p>
<p>All that said, Haverford is straight-up terrible and you shouldn’t go there. Surely you can figure something else out.</p>
<p>If you spent a semester at Swarthmore as a student, I don’t understand why you would ask strangers on a message board whether Swat is a good fit for you. No one here could possibly have more helpful info than you do about your particular situation.</p>
<p>But since you’ve asked… I think if you were soooo academically overwhelmed at Swarthmore during your first past/fail semester that you had to take a leave of absence, I don’t think Swarthmore is for you. It is true that you probably could have made better choices for your schedule, and a bad roommate situation adds a lot of stress, and messy breakups never help, but still…</p>
<p>Go to Haverford, and come visit your Swat friends on the weekends. And no, not all Swaties will look down on you for attending H (Duhvinci will hopefully graduate this year ))</p>
<p>a) Hook up with A.E. and live happily ever after</p>
<p>b) Pick Reed.</p>
<p>c) Work thru your issues about where you want to transfer or what you want to do with the deans at Swarthmore who are trained professionals. We get it. You were miserably unhappy about everything during your first semester in college. You aren’t the first; you won’t be the last. It happens at every college in America, every year. You’ll work it out and find the right experience for you, but strangers on an internet site aren’t the right people to help you find what you are looking for. Swarthmore has many resources for working with people in your situation, all of whom have far more experience and are far better positioned than any internet stranger to really help you find the best for you.</p>
<p>A lot of kids are really miserable their first semester and then it turns around in their second semester. I think that’s especially true in a very challenging place such as Swarthmore, where people seem to be galloping all day long to fit in the things they are passionate about doing. In a way, Swat is like New York City–it can be intimidating and seem cold, but once you catch the energy, it’s as if you have a wonderful wind at your back, pushing you to greater speed, power, and self-confidence. And once you’re in that rhythm, you can understand and share that joy with the others who are living in that powerful, energetic, excited way.</p>
<p>ngnm: Yes, I acknowledged the silliness of my question regarding how good of a “fit” or whatever Swarthmore would be for me in my last post. Again, my point in introducing this new piece of information into the thread was to hear some insights about the first semester of college in general, from alums or whoever. I probably did give the impression that I was academically overwhelmed, but really what it was was a combination of everything outside of academics (well…and the crappiness of my classes) taking the legs out from under my desire to work, along with my observation that many other students and the academic climate in general was more…well “academic” than “intellectual.” I was actually doing quite alright in all of my classes, but I wasn’t particularly enjoying any of them and thought this would only get worse as I moved into upper division courses and accrued more and more work.</p>
<p>Interesteddad: When you say “We get it,” do you mean to suggest that YOU are a dean at Swarthmore? Because I’ve always suspected this. And there’s one dean in particular that I can imagine you as…</p>
<p>Just ribbing you, ID. I know you’re a Williams alum and a Swat dad ;).</p>
<p>Endicott: Oooh, that sounds nice. Refreshing too, especially during those sticky first few weeks of the semester.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s the proper forum. Big picture, there are first semester students at every college in America who don’t make it to Christmas break. So, it is a broad issue. However, each student is a very specific case, with very specific issues, very specific causes (that usually aren’t really the college, although of course the student understandably believes that it is), and very specific remedies. These are very personal considerations and the appropriate forum is discussions with the student’s family, ministers, college professionals, and so on a so forth. None of us know you. None of us know circumstances of your decision to take a leave of absence. None of know what options you have or where you are in terms of preparation. None of us know what conversations Swarthmore has had with you. None of us know what discussions your parents have had with you. How could we possibly give you any meaningful advice? How could we possibly even comment without be afraid of getting in the way of much closer, more personal advice you are probably getting? For example, what if your couselor is advising strongly against a return to college next fall and internet strangers then tell you to go to this college or that college? I don’t even talk to friends and family who have encounted these speedbumps because how can an outsider really understand the dynamics of a particular situation? You should figure out what’s best for you and that means working with people who know your situation (parents, ministers, counselors, Swat deans, Swat counseling, and so forth).</p>
<p>It’s very similar to my view of discussing details of individual financial aid considerations. I don’t think a public internet forum is the right place for that.</p>
<p>My daughter actually did not like her freshman seminars, and I don’t think she took any in her second semester. She felt that the quality of he class depended too much on the few students in it. (This is very different in the upper level seminars, because the people attending them are not “random”, and all have adequate preparation and understanding of the subject at that point.)
I think it is very "kind"of Swarthmore that they have a pass/fail first semester, so you can get some grip on what college is like, get better understanding of what your expectations/desires/abilities are, and explore some variety of classes without stressing out about the grades. It is a given that not everything will work out perfectly, and you will learn from it… If you found the first semester to be overly stressful, something was very wrong in your approach I think.</p>
<p>I think pass/fail first semester is probably the single best policy in higher education. IMO, this is the sort of policy that could be/should be an important consideration is selecting a college.</p>
<p>I think my daughter took three first year seminars, counting Boccio’s 6H Relativity Physics seminar (which was not technically an FYS). She really liked two of them and thought the third one was “just OK”.</p>
<p>She loved Boccio’s seminar, even though it convinced her that she didn’t want to be a Physics major. Presenting problem sets to the class. Office hours with Boccio in preparation for presenting to the class. The weekly Sunday night problem set groups. And, then meeting in seminar once a week for three hours. Chuckling at “those Physics boys” (as she called them) trying to win arguments on relativity with Boccio. It was like its own complete collaborative educational experience and was certainly a uniquely new experience to transition from a public high school to Swarthmore.</p>
<p>You posted that you were an instigator. So you pricked my curiosity. </p>
<p>Last year about this time you were choosing were to go. A year earlier in 2008 when you began your college search you were wondering if it was unethical to be a recruited athlete because you were being recruited but did not want to continue running in college. </p>
<p>Your final choices apparently were Swarthmore, Chicago, Vassar and Wesleyan. You seemed to have a preference for Wesleyan but did not get enought FA. So in the end it seems that you “settled” for Swarthmore. </p>
<p>About a month ago you posted on the Wesleyan thread that you had left Swarthmore and would be reapplying to Swarthmore, and applying to Haverford, but you were thinking of transferring, from either Haverford or Swarthmore, to Wesleyan after a year.</p>
<p>If your posts are for real, you are not ready to be in school. You need to mature and you would be making a major mistake in returning to Swarthmore. Haverford is not going to cut it either. Take some time off and when you are ready, if you still have the same feelings for Wesleyan, go ahead and apply there. Do not waste your time or Swarthmore’s resources because you obviously will not be happy there. The school has not changed since you were there, and you probably have not changed either. </p>
<p>Could you please answer a question? Did you apply as a recruited athlete and leave because in the end you did not want to run?</p>
<p>no, no, not at all! gosh, i am kind of a jerk, and immature, and unprepared for college in some ways but i am not that dishonest. i did indeed express a desire to run at swarthmore, but i also spoke with the coach over the phone and, as well, expressed my unsureness over whether or not i wanted to run. i was accepted early write, and perhaps i’m flattering myself, but i don’t think i would have gotten in early write just because they needed a runner.</p>
<p>i was not a recruited athlete at swarthmore to my understanding. the coach called me because i had expressed an interest in running, but that was the extent of my involvement with xc. my application was “supported” by the vassar coach, but i did not end up going there. there was never any expectation of me running at swarthmore, and i made this clear to the coach over the phone and at Ride the Tide. if my memory serves me correctly, that is. at very least i can say with certainty that i was not recruited, and i did not leave for any reasons related to running whatsoever.</p>
<p>in terms of my wesleyan thread: ya, i wanted to go to wesleyan. but i had to deal with reality, which was that my family could nowhere NEAR afford it. so regardless of my feelings, or my wesleyan thread (which wasn’t posted with full intentions of transferring to wes…it was really a more general question about transferring which I wanted answered largely for curiosity’s sake), i’m going to have to settle down at either swat or haverford. </p>
<p>in the end, i think interesteddad is basically right. this is not the place for me to seek advice. i need to speak with my family, friends, and the swarthmore/haverford deans. still, this is a fascinating thread. so write what you will, and i’ll ready my grains of salt.</p>
<p>Am I missing something or are you getting caught up in a fabricated story you cannot keep straight?</p>
<p>Last year’s posts show you stating that you were having to make a decision by May 1st and make a choice. So how on earth could you be an early write at Swarthmore?</p>
))</p>