Switching from Violin to Viola

College Majors Music Major
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<p>D3 (hs junior) is a violinist who has become seduced by the dark side, aka viola. D2 is a violist, although not a music major, so D3 has seen the good, the bad and the ugly for a number of years. But this year, she's not only playing viola in a fantastic quartet, but has begun learning viola rep seriously for the first time.</p>

<p>Here's the dilemma: practice time. And which instrument to pursue as the major one.</p>

<p>Plusses of violin:
We have one.</p>

<p>Plusses of viola:
She's actually better at viola.
The C string.</p>

<p>BUT
she's very petite, actually uses a 7/8 violin. Has had tendonitis problems already. I'm concerned about instrument size if she switches (currently is playing a lousy student 14 inch viola shaped object).</p>

<p>She loves both. Feels pulled in a thousand directions. Needs advice, even from Mom.</p>

<p>Any thoughts you can share are most appreciated!</p>

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<p>You need to ask these questions of string pedagogues, preferably petite female violinists and violists. Look at the faculty rosters at your state universities, and ask them the questions. You can e-mail them directly. You might see who manages string education/pedagogy at the best string school around....that would be another resource. Where do you live, what state?</p>

<p>Looking through your other posts, stradmom, I see that you teach at a state university.....you should have no problem finding someone through your school's department who can tell you who to ask. </p>

<p>Tendonitis is a worry.....she needs to address all of the pertinent issues now to have any hope of successfully continuing. There are occupational therapists who specialize in musicians and their techniques...they diagnose postures and positions which make a real difference in how this might progress. I know of someone in NYC who is excellent with instrumentalists, works with many of the conservatory students. There is probably someone closer to you. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Have her tendonitis issues come while playing viola? For what it's worth, I know a very petite Japanese woman who has a successful job in a major orchestra on the viola. She switched in graduate school and has not had a problem with tendonitis. On the other hand, I know a large (about 5'10") violist who has had a bad time with tendonitis.</p>

<p>It is easier to get work on the viola - ask anyone who has switched. If she loves it, she should probably go for it provided she isn't going to injure herself. It is indeed a larger instrument to handle, but keep in mind that many of the parts written for it have fewer very fast notes which themselves can be stressful on the wrists.</p>

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<p>This one sounds to me like violadad is the go to man!!</p>

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<p>As others mention, the health concerns are paramount.</p>

<p>I'm no expert, but I'll add my 2 cents from experience.</p>

<p>The instrument is indeed larger than a violin, but non standard in size. You will have a wide range of options in finding a playable yet decent sounding instrument. A true viola bow is also a bit heavier. And of course, you're playing in a different cleft. Fingerings, bowings, hand positions, technique are similar, but not identical to the violin. The nuances can be the stumbling blocks, and can result in discomfort and pain.</p>

<p>If it's painful, STOP.</p>

<p>A trained violist is better suited to guiding you through proper instrument sizing and tonality, playability and instruction than a "pure" violinist.</p>

<p>Is she at an advanced level on the violin? I would not recommend doubling for an intermediate player, other than occasionally "fooling around" for fun. </p>

<p>However, if she thinks she may want to pursue viola seriously, engage the best viola instructor you can, not a violinist who also teaches viola. If she wants to do both, the instructor should be trained in both, and actively be playing both. You may have conflicts with two instructors, one on violin, one on viola. They will be at loggerheads. A solution is to have a pedagog trained and versed and playing both instruments at a professional level. Getting to "that next level" can be extremely difficult for some while actively playing and learning both simultaneously.</p>

<p>Advanced proficiency on both requires time, dedication, and an ability to separate instruments mentally. That's how violason describes it. I know it sounds a bit weird, but that's how he described switching when learning violin. He also said it seems that most have less difficulty going from violin to viola than vice-versa. Son was a violist from the get go, but he also had high level training on the violin, but only after he had reached conservatory level on the viola. He has played both professionally, but knows his limits on the violin. </p>

<p>A trained violist is better suited to guiding you through proper instrument sizing and tonality, playability than a violinist who dabbles with viola. </p>

<p>I've seen good violinists become excellent violists, but I've also seen good violinists become less than mediocre violists, due primarily to bad instruction.</p>

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<p>Thanks, everyone for your contributions! Some more details (too many??)...</p>

<p>The tendonitis occurred prior to her viola adventure and seems to have been resolved - at least for now - with a combination of a smaller violin and better technique.</p>

<p>She has a really excellent violin teacher who we trust and who is aware of the viola interest, although perhaps not fully cognizant of the newly awakened viola passion. In terms of level, D is working on the Mendelssohn concerto. This teacher is very, very attuned to physical issues in playing.</p>

<p>She also studies with a really excellent viola teacher who we trust and who is aware of her violin interest. In terms of viola rep, D is working on Hoffmeister, Bloch Suite Hebraique, and a Vaughn Williams suite. </p>

<p>Kid realizes that this is a decision only she can make, but is looking for any insights that might help her out. Both teachers (at different music schools) are encouraging her in different directions and I honestly think she could get into quality programs on either instrument (probably better programs on viola). </p>

<p>D is at the point where she feels like either decision would "let someone down" even though realistically everyone would be supportive of her choices.</p>

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<p>Do both teachers know that she is studying the other instrument? This is important. Both are noticing things which are affected by the extensive time on the other instrument, and it is most appropriate that they have full disclosure. Your daughter is very dedicated. The more time and physical energy she has to dedicate to one of the instruments, the further she will go. Rough decision.</p>

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<p>You seem to have all the bases covered. It really has to be her choice, and she should not be concerned about letting others down.</p>

<p>If she does switch, the instrument sizing will be key, but there are true viola sounding instruments in the smaller sizes, but may be hard to find in a viola below 14-14 1/2". If she is playing on "garbage" now, it may hinder proper technique, and cause having to "strain and push" to get the right sound. (Son is only 5'8", yet has played a couple of 18" "monsters" with ease, and is happy around 17", but he's got years of developed viola tendons and muscles.)</p>

<p>Personally, I think the Mendelssohn sounds better on a viola ;).</p>

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<p>lorelei: Yes, both teachers know about the other.</p>

<p>violadad: But doesn't everything sound better on a viola? :-)</p>

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<p>stradmom, I'm not so biased to say that everything sounds better on a viola.</p>

<p>The vile-in does have its uses. :D</p>

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<p>stradmom --</p>

<p>i think viola is beautiful too. it has a smaller repertoire, but if she likes contemporry music, there are a lot of composers writing for it today and, of course, there's tons of great chamber music. the important thing for her to realize is that this is HER life, not her teachers'. she will move on to the next stage with new teachers and an adult life and she is only letting herself down if she doesn't make the decision based on her own preferences. she has to live with this decision - they will have other students and other things to think about. it sounds as though she will do fine either way so it really is her choice. your job is to advise her about the practical aspects (new instrument, tentonitis, etc) and to run interference so the teachers don't try to overinfluence her decision.</p>

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<p>Hi all,
You may have noticed in my post about "expensive" instruments that I am a professional violist, and I mentioned the viola size factor in that post.
I spent many years on a very fine large viola (16 1/2", wide bouts), but it was clear I would benefit from playing a smaller instrument. (I am female and 5' 4".) Eventually I settled on a smaller German viola and had to really adjust my sound concept. It would be safe to say it was a bit more of an alto than a tenor voice. However, I was within a few years playing on the instrument I discussed in the other post - a very fine old Italian viola. It is 15 7/8" but, and this is the key as far as tonal quality - has a longer, more standard string length. It also was cut down from its original dimensions. (It is about 300 years old, so I can't say when this was done.) It has a huge, rich timbre and is in every way an exceptional viola.
First of all, I would try to find a smaller viola - or look into one of the newer "cut-away" instruments. The upper right bout is actually cut away to facilitate shifting.
Regarding switching back and forth: at my ripe old age it gives me problems. If I can, I do all viola or all violin. It seems the muscles get confused and misfire when they are challenged in this way. (In other words I get aches and pains.) I've been told I would be better off playing an entirely different instrument (similar to sports cross training), and that I should not switch back and forth daily. If I am offered work on both instruments within the same week, I now decline one or the other.
If your daughter is playing the Mendelssohn she has developed a pretty high level of technique and could switch over. If she were at a lower technical level I would not switch yet - in general terms it is easier to learn technique on the violin first.
I switched when I was 15 and I think it is safe to say it is the voice for me.</p>

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<p>Sorry - I meant to say the cut-away violas have the upper LEFT bout cut away, not the right.</p>

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<p>Violadad said:
[quote]
You seem to have all the bases covered.

[/quote]

No, Violadad. The bass is the one thing she's NOT considering. :D (I can't believe you let that one get away....)</p>

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<p>binx, I don't take them all. I also set them up for others to use. :D</p>

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<p>Stradmom, if your son isn't already doing Alexander technique, I urge you to start. My daughter, a pianist and singer, has been helped tremendously. Before, as she stepped up her piano practice, her arms would ache--that is gone. Also, her breathing and everything is freer for singing. Her Alexander teacher works with instrumentalists of every level and instrument. Good luck!</p>

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<p>If she is really thinking about possibly doing this professionally, and if she truly loves the viola, then viola would be a good choice for her. The fact is that viola is much less competitive overall than violin. That is not to say that violists have an easy time of it, but there are many fewer students playing the viola than the violin. I wouldn't encourage someone to switch because of this, but if she really likes viola, it might be the way for her to go.</p>

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<p>"Viola is much less competitive". Hummm! I'm not sure I buy that one. </p>

<p>I'm from Southern California where we have the LA Phil, the Pacific Symphony and the San Diego Symphony along with a few others. In those three orchestras alone, I count a total of 83 violin chairs and just 33 viola chairs. There may be fewer violists out there, but there are also far fewer viola chairs. (BTW - The SD Symphony lists 2 open violin seats with auditions in late summer for anyone who is interested.)</p>

<p>As the dad of a viola performance major, I've learned that a decision to switch from violin to viola is not a casual one at all. In fact, you may find that some viola teachers prefer that you never touch the violin again. </p>

<p>Finally, the "much less competitive" comment may be interpreted by some as meaning a less talented group of musicians although I know it was not meant that way. There is plenty of very talented "competition" in a viola studio at a respected conservatory or major university program. If a young violinist is planning a switch to viola with some expectation that college auditions/college admissions will be less "competitive", I'd suggest rethinking the approach.</p>

<p>Just my $.02.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If a young violinist is planning a switch to viola with some expectation that college auditions/college admissions will be less "competitive", I'd suggest rethinking the approach.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I've gotta agree with this one. It may help immensely for a student playing recreationally in a high school orchestra, a mid range youth symphony with an under-represented section, or in an amateur chamber group. </p>

<p>It may be a data point in a small music program at the collegiate level.</p>

<p>It ain't a "hook".</p>

<p>Those who may argue otherwise have not seen the quality of the viola students at the conservatory level studios.</p>

<p>Upping the ante. We're at $.04 now.</p>

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<p>I think shenna is right, relative to the violin (and I am saying relative to the violin as a reference) getting into programs of all sorts on the viola is generally a bit easier then it is on the violin, even at top level schools like Julliard from what I have heard, which includes teachers at some of these places. Yes, there are a lot less violists in an orchestra, but if you compare it to the craziness of the violin, the ratio is skewed. I will give you an idea, last year the Juilliard pre college program had about 10 openings for violin, and they had well over 100 kids audition. On the viola side, they had somewhere around 5 or 6 I hear, and had about 25 kids audition. I can tell you for sure that the relative level on the viola appeared lower then on the violin on average in who was admitted, my son's teacher had a girl get in on the viola who even she said wasn't a superstar, and had some really high level violin students not make it. It has to do more with manic prestige the violin is given in some quarters then in musicianship, hence huge numbers going into it.</p>

<p>Does this mean a violist can be a total slacker and do well? No, not at all, it takes a serious person on the viola to get into top level programs, it is just in comparison to the madness that is the violin that it appears to be easier.I have also been told and read that playing a relatively less popular instrument like the viola means it is more likely in many programs to get a scholarship. </p>

<p>Does that mean someone who is a mediocre violin player can make it as a violist? Does this mean it is easy to get into a good program as a violist? No, and no one should be foolish enough to think that, or plan that way. The key really is that the student needs to like, no love, the instrument they are playing, and work at it, there is no substitute. I am simply saying if someone loves the viola more then the violin, that it may be a bit easier to take the path of the viola in terms of getting into programs then on the violin simply because there is relatively a bit less competition from from I have seen.</p>

<p>I agree with others, if your daughter has tendonitis look into getting her into an Alexander technique workshop/class. My son did one as part of a chamber music program and he said what he learned there helped him with keeping from aching (and he currently practices 4-5 hours a day, which means pain is not unknown).</p>

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