@MYOS1634 No, it doesn’t.
Well to clarify, my transcript indicates the LLC I’m in, but doesn’t specify the reqs.
It seems that some undergraduate advisors tell students that med schools count Ps as Cs, but I still wish someone could find evidence that medical schools actually recalculate the GPAs they get from AMCAS, replacing Ps with a C. This certainly wasn’t my Ds experience, and I did a little searching and couldn’t find anything to support that this happens, but it would be nice to advise posters here based on what actually happens with Med school adcoms, rather than what undergrad advisors say - they may be operating on assumptions, I know Ds school had a great pre-med advising office, but some things she was told she found not to be completely accurate once she was in med school.
And looking at the number of applicants that medical schools get, (George Washington gets >15,000!) it is hard to imagine schools not taking the AMCAS calculations, but sifting through transcripts and converting Ps to Cs.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstablea1.pdf
Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’d sure like to see something from the medical school end that says that it does.
From AMCAS manual:
Grades that Do Not Affect the AMCAS GPA
The following AMCAS grades do not have a weight or value in computing the AMCAS GPA:
G Used to indicate AP credit not assigned a letter grade
L Used for CLEP or USAFI/DANTES credit not assigned a letter grade
P Used for courses taken in a Pass/Fail system, which are Passed
N Used for courses taken in a Pass/Fail system, which are Failed
I agree that pre-med advisors get things wrong all too often, but…
You’re not going to find that because how each med school weighs grades or recalculates GPA is proprietary. (i.e. private and not released to the general public). Just like most applicant scoring rubrics aren’t released publicly.
Med schools want some flex in the system to account for atypical situations. If admissions is formulaic then that opens them to lawsuits from disappointed applicants.
Actually this is extremely easy to do. It’s a completely automated process that can be built into applicant management software. All an individual has to do is set the initial parameters for data conversion. This is done once and applied to every application uploaded. I know this for a fact because I know someone who writes applicant management software for med schools. (He originally wrote the software that AMCAS now leases to med schools for this purpose.) When he worked at our local med school (he’s now at WUSTL), he built into the software a GPA re-calculator that reweighted and recomputed every applicant’s GPA. based upon a protocol the med school wanted.
Also if med schools can only offer so few acceptances out of a pool of so many applicants, they obviously want easy ways to narrow down the applicant pool. Recalculating P’s as C’s is definitely a plausible way to do so.
Look, I’m not trying to be argumentative. The OP wanted to know if it would be OK to take an elective pass/fail so they could focus on getting an A in a Math class, which may be a pre-req for medical school, or at least a pre-req for a pre-req. The OP has been advised based on what undergrad advisors say, or what is found on SDN, or what is technically possible for med schools to do (recalculate GPAs), that Ps will be calculated as Cs, and so are a bad idea. But if a student makes a lower grade in the math course because they did not take the pass/fail, thus lowering their overall GPA, we KNOW that will matter to med schools - tables with this specific data can be easily found. And why does Harvard suggest this strategy to pre-meds, in writing (see post #16 above) if it is likely med schools will recalculate the P as a C? Wouldn’t it be irresponsible for them to put this in their written material for pre-meds? I chose Harvard, because it would be well thought of by most everyone here, but I found similar info on other sites, including WUSTL pre health handbook for students, where it states “Required courses should never be taken pass/fail. It is acceptable, however, to take a few other courses pass/fail.”
I worked in a science-based field for 14 years, and have taught high school and college Biology for the past 20 years. I always taught my students and try myself to carefully evaluate information. The evidence supporting never taking an undergrad course pass/fail because a P will be recalculated as a C seems speculative at best, and almost comes across as an urban legend, because although it is repeated often, there is too little concrete data showing that it is a common occurrence. Maybe medical schools are keeping this secret, but that doesn’t seem likely. Applying to med school is about putting together the best application. If a student can have a high GPA with no pass/fail courses, certainly that is the safest strategy. But if a few pass/fail courses in non-preqs allow for higher grades in a difficult semester, that may be a successful strategy also, and there is documentation that well-respected undergrads support this.
Recently a newish poster to the “pre-med topics” discussion area tried to offer advice based on their experience, but was different than long time posters’ views. They were pretty effectively shut down, the poster questioned why everything they wrote was being nitpicked, and stated that “It’s pretty obvious I don’t fit in here”. They have not posted in this discussion area for months. Sentences in my post were pulled out, quoted, and disagreed with, but still the overarching idea that taking a non-prereq as pass/ fail is OK wasn’t refuted with compelling evidence. When someone states incorrect information that might lead an applicant astray, that needs to be pointed out. But this forum will be much richer if those with different legitimate experiences and points of view feel comfortable posting. Most applicants will have flaws in their application, but not all flaws are equal in the admissions process. Having a P or 2 on a transcript is not equal to having a weaker GPA as calculated by AMCAS.
Longtime poster here!
Now I’m feeling attacked…
I never said that C=P for NON pre-reqs coursework. All I said was that the OP cannot take a pre-req (i.e. psych) as P/F. (Which was what s/he originally posted about). I also pointed out that AMCAS doesn’t include P/F grades in GPA calculation and even cited the relevant passage in the AMCAS Instruction Manual. (With the appropriate link!)
I also quite helpfully pointed out that most med school secondaries have a place to explain anything the OP feels needs explaining. I also told him/her not to sweat it right now because they are still a college freshman and years away from potentially applying to med school.
Where have I mislead the OP? Where have I over-reached or over-reacted?
I provide information to people for living. I try to find the best, most detailed and most accurate information that is out there. I try very hard not to post opinions passing as fact, and I try to label what I know and from what sources. (So the reader has basis for judging the reliability of my information.) I am (by nature of my training and my professional work experience) nit-picky and extremely detail oriented.
You reached a conclusion based upon your opinion and implied something that is objectively untrue–med schools do not recompute GPA because of unmanageable number of applications. And that’s incorrect. Some medical schools do recompute AMCAS GPA. ( I can name names and provide sources if you’re interested.) But as I said, what I cannot do is give you the exact details of HOW the school chooses to re-weight grades because I don’t know and that information is not made public.
I have written software for and managed very large databases ( > hundred thousand unique items). What my friend said he’s able to do with application management software is very much within the realm of possibility. It’s actually pretty simple to do.
@WayOutWestMom I wasn’t attacking you or anyone else. You and other long term posters give invaluable advice to students and parents of students applying to medical school. I gained a lot from this discussion area during my Ds application cycle, and I thank you and all the others here that offer encouragement and help. You did not say that the OP couldn’t take non-preqs pass/fail, but others did say across the board don’t take anything pass/fail because it will be recalculated as a C, and no evidence beyond SDN or undergrad advisors’ statements or that it just seems plausible was given. I don’t post often, but I found that concerning and so felt compelled to comment.
And wow, when I reread my last post it did sound like I was accusing you of giving incorrect information. I did not mean that, I mean that if I or other infrequent posters post something incorrect it should be pointed out so med school applicants aren’t led astray, but otherwise, differing legitimate opinions and experiences can make the forum richer. I do appreciate the detail and references you link to in your posts.
Though I did think it would be hard to recalculate GPAs for thousands of applicants, you’ve explained that it is easy and you personally know someone that did it for a local med school, so I appreciate the correction. I didn’t come to any conclusion based on the number of applicants though; I said “it’s hard to imagine” and “not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’d sure like to see something from the medical school end that says that it does”. I was expressing doubt, not coming to a conclusion.
So rather than coming to any conclusion - because I haven’t seen enough evidence personally to come to one - my posts were more about expressing doubt about the validity of the claim that med schools look at Ps as Cs. The reasons I questioned this, and I stated this in my above posts:
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While this is repeated often on discussion boards and by some undergrad advisors (though Ds school did not state this, and she had 2 Ps in non-prereqs), there is a lack of concrete evidence from medical schools that this happens. Since that is where the recalculating would occur, when most of the statements that they recalculate Ps as Cs come from sources besides the medical schools themselves, it feels less valid, information based on hearsay rather than from the primary source. But… maybe this information IS given by med schools. I only did a quick Google search, certainly not exhaustive! Honestly, if you do have names and sources of medical schools who recalculate the AMCAS GPA, even if the how is not available, that would be an incredible service to future med. school applicants, to apply smartly based on their transcript.
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Well respected universities, some who also have a medical school, put in written materials for pre-med students that taking non-preqs as pass/fail is OK. That would seem irresponsible if it was common for med schools, including their own, to recalculate the Ps as Cs. I listed Harvard and WUSTL above without links. Here they are:
http://ocs.fas.harvard.edu/files/ocs/files/premed-academic-publication-2016.pdf
https://prehealth.wustl.edu/Documents/Handbook2017Online.pdf
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Recently a newish poster to the “pre-med topics” discussion area tried to offer advice based on their experience, but was different than long time posters’ views. They were pretty effectively shut down, the poster questioned why everything they wrote was being nitpicked, and stated that “It’s pretty obvious I don’t fit in here”. They have not posted in this discussion area for months. S
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“A newish poster”???
Are you talking about a poster who has been a member since 2009 and has posted for many, many years???
Hmmmm…I guess that makes me a newish poster, too. 
^^ newish to “pre-med topics”, not CC! I don’t think s/he posted here until they had a son apply to med school this cycle.
@dheldreth uh no.
Has been a frequent poster in the premed forum since 2009…when that son was a sophomore in HIGH SCHOOL.
I have no idea why you would think that s/he only began posting in the premed forum once son was applying to med school.
I’ve done quite extensive research on this myself, as I’ve debated for a while now whether to take a language class pass/fail in additional to a regular course load so that I can still learn the language but not risk having it suck away too much of my time.
I have looked at the FAQs of many universities’ pre-med advising page, and it seems that most colleges say to not take more than 1 class P/F per semester (assuming the class is not a prerequisite). However, Rice seems to be the only college I’ve found who holds the opinion that a P = D for a P/F course.
Because of this one college, I am now afraid to even think about taking any class P/F.
My opinion?
I think an occasion P/F class, particularly if it’s clear the class is taken for “fun” (I’m thinking of something along the lines of the “Wines of the World” class–that a former poster took her senior year) or a course that clearly taken out of interest in a subject that is far removed from one’s graduation or major requirements–maybe like a psych major taking a observational astronomy class or a math major taking a vocal training/singing class, won’t hurt one’s chances at a med school admission.
While there is evidence that med schools can and do recalculate AMCAS GPAs to suit their own purposes, I doubt that one or two P/F courses/grades in non-required courses over a 4 year college career is going to have a severe negative impact on one’s ability to gain a medical school admission. But I think a pattern of taking courses P/F will.
I think that taking more than 1 P/F in an given semester or taking one P/F class each semester is too many because it may indicate the student has issues with time management or is playing the “protect the GPA at all costs” game. Both of which will raise possible red flags with adcomms.
@doctorgirl Rice states the same thing the other colleges do about pass/fail courses in the document you linked. After stating that it is inadvisable to take a pre-med requirement pass/fail because med schools might look at Ps as Ds, it states “Courses that are not pre-medical requirements can be taken pass/fail, but those should be kept to a minimum.”
Interesting that a prereq taken P/F is considered to be a D or F, but it doesn’t seem like that assumption is applied to non-pre-reqs.
Either way, seems like it’s best to avoid P/F.
When I was premed, my advisor used to be on a medical school admissions committee. And they said that if they get to the point where the school requests that the applicant send transcripts directly to the school (in addition to the one already sent to AMCAS), they may want all P/F grades uncovered. Many registrars offer this option for a fee. If the applicant refuses to do so, then any P’s can be looked at as C’s.
Also taking a class P/F doesn’t mean that you pretty much can’t fail. It is not uncommon for people to think that taking a class P/F means you don’t have to try. As a result, there are instances where people get lazy to the point where they actually end up getting the F.
@umcoe16 What if you didn’t elect the class as P/F? I honestly have no idea how they convert the grade to P/F in the residential college.
^^
Are you asking about a few classes that are ONLY offered as P/F? I think my kid’s school had some sort of 1 credit “alcohol class” that everyone had to take. It was only P/F. I think med schools understand what those classes are and ignore them.
IMHO, a Spanish course normally should be graded, you should not take a P/F Spanish course just because the school offer one. It will be viewed as an “easy way out”. MIT requires every one pass a swimming test/class and that class can be accepted by Med schools and be ignored even you failed once.
@vkugal I don’t know about your school, but at my school, any course that is “mandatory P/F” usually goes on the transcript as CR/NC (credit/no credit) or S/U (satisfactory/unsatisfactory), rather than P/F. So by looking at the notation, there is a way to tell whether the course was offered on a mandatory P/F basis, or whether you made the choice to take a course that could have been taken for a grade as P/F. They will know that if a course was mandatory P/F, they know they can’t really judge, but then you are advised not to take too many of those.