Talk to me about ECs and holistic admissions (give me hope!) [3.8 GPA, small to medium size LACs]

Applying to College
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I’ve posted elsewhere about our college list and upcoming visits. But as I review all of the threads about where kids are going (and peruse Naviance and think about the Common App), I’ve got a sinking feeling.

Here’s the deal: my kid (on paper) looks boring. I think he could probably write a good essay about any number of things – his obsession with his best friend’s cat, his favorite books, the way he sees the world by bike, etc. But the non-academic space on his application is going to look sparse. For most of his life he has resisted joining organized/structured activities and curtailing free time. Unfortunately (from a Common App POV) this doesn’t mean he spends his free time inventing new gadgets, snow camping, solving community problems, starting companies, composing sonatas, or taking care of his grandparents.

Instead, he comes home, does his homework, practices piano, does a couple of chores, chats with friends online, reads books, plays video games, talks with us at dinner, maybe watches TV or plays darts with us, goes to bed.

On weekends he does this + hanging out with friends. Sometimes they play music in someone’s pool house. They listen to a lot of music and talk about it. They ride their bikes around. Sometimes they take the train to the city and wander around Japantown and buy baked goods and contemplate katanas. They spin fantasies about taking a summer to travel around the country on Amtrak. They talk about getting jobs and dip a toe in the water. etc.

He has one music lesson and one badminton lesson every week. During badminton season he plays every day but it’s not like running or cycling or a year-round sport. He half-heartedly joined a club at school that doesn’t do much. He’s on yearbook and does photography (but not intensely). He solves most of the NYTimes puzzles every day. He reads and re-reads his favorite books.

He knows from looking at CollegeVine that he needs to step it up– get a part-time job and/or a volunteer gig – plan for a robust summer between junior and senior year. But at this point anything he does is likely to read as perfunctory.

I worry on paper, some kid who scored 100 points lower than he did on the SAT but who has a full complement of activities and comparable course load will be way more compelling. How much should I push him at this point to beef it up? I kind of like the balance that he has in his life right now (I do think he should get a job and have some work experience under his belt.)

Questions:

  1. Can anyone with similar kids talk to me about how this worked out for them in the admissions process?
  2. Are all the schools that look like matches/targets on paper essentially reach schools at this point?
  3. Do schools really put a ton of stock in kids that are either super intense about one activity or spread very thin across a bunch of things? Or do normal kids also make it through?
  4. This summer he wants to take AB calc so that he can take BC next year. He probably has space to do one other thing – maybe a camp/summer research experience, maybe a job (which he’s never had). He also needs to learn to drive at some point. I’m wondering about pros/cons of either path.

Background/refresher:
–White male from SF Bay Area
–GPA likely to be around 3.8 UW, he’ll have 10 APs by the time he graduates, including AP Physics I and C, BC Calc, AP French, APUSH, AP Eng Lang, AP Eng Lit, AP Psych, AP World, and (okay, I know) AP Photography.
–teacher recs TBD.
–SATs: unknown but he was scoring 99th percentile on PSAT and practice tests for SATs are looking strong so I imagine that this score will be high.
–Full-pay
–Goes to large, fairly wealthy public high school with typically between 12 and 20 NMSF students every year. Many/most of the kids from our school who go to Ivies/elite LACs seem to be athletic recruits but we also send a fair # of kids to Stanford and Berkeley. I have no idea how admissions offices would “rank” our school.
–Targeting small to medium-sized LACs, including Clark, Dickinson, Kenyon, Lafayette, Macalester, U. Puget Sound, Rhodes, St. Olaf, Rochester, Whitman, and Wooster.

Grateful for any insights you can share.

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My S23 (and my S24 as well) was very much like your son, except both my boys had a part time job caring for their other disabled brother. My kids’ rigor is probably a bit below your son’s and their SAT scores were 1490 (S23) and 1500 (S24) so maybe below where you expect your son to be.

S23 got into Clark worth the high end of their standard merit scholarship (maybe it was about 22K/year). You would have the benefit of geographic diversity, which they are looking for. We literally live 10 miles away so there were probably hundreds of kids just like my son applying.

There are probably people with more experience who can give better advice, but I don’t think your son is out of the range for those schools even with his current ECs. But, maybe if he could get a job now and continue it over the next 15 months? I also think there are ways to tie together the things he does, in his essays, his activity descriptions, that show his passions and commitment to the things he does.

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Where I live, 3.8 GPA and 10 AP’s (which was impossible at my kid’s HS, since AP’s were reserved for juniors and seniors, and you couldn’t fit in 10 since the times overlapped) is off the charts stellar… and would open up a wide range of terrific colleges (many of which you’ve mentioned). So I’m not sure what the worry is.

Your HS GC is the best source of “where do kids like me end up” since much of this is highly local. Your son sounds fantastic in every way. Throw in a job (seriously- folding towels at the Y, reception area at a nursing home, scooping ice cream) and I’ll bet he has terrific options to choose from. And the job isn’t “for college” so I don’t think you have to worry about that. The job is to introduce him to the working world when the stakes are low.

I’ve hired new college grads who have never held a paying job- and I’ve promised myself I’m never doing that again. The best way to learn that when you need to be at work at 9 you’d better be there at 8:55? Have a boss who docks your pay when you are late. The best way to learn that telling a co-worker “you’re a moron” isn’t a great communication vehicle? Lose your job by calling a co-worker a moron. Better to learn at age 17 than at 22, no???

He sounds terrific!

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I think that is a great and very reasonable school list for your kid. Don’t know if you have Naviance, but if you do …. I expect that you will see kids with your son’s academic profile getting in at each of those schools. Being full pay is also a huge advantage. And being geographically diverse will help with the Midwest LACs. Also—he’s male, which helps at the LACs. If your son has good balance and is kind and enjoyable to be around (for both other teens and adults) that is huge! Kindness and openness to adventure goes a long way at a LAC. He has organized sport and music activities. In my opinion that is plenty! Enjoy your time with your son!

In our house, the rule is … you have to do something to move your body (e.g. a sport or sports class) and you have to do something related to an academic area (could be music or language engineering, etc). And it can be different every year or the same, but something body and something mind. Can be a school club or outside. With 3 kids and 2 working parents, when the kids were younger, logistically we could not have handled more than 2 activities per kid at a time. And we just never switched from that mindset.

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Thanks! I’ve gleaned a fair amount from Naviance about where he stands from a grades/test perspective but it’s hard to know how buffed up the other kids are from a non-academic standpoint and given this community, I’d guess…pretty high. I think a lot of other families – even those with similarly lackadaisical kids – have been more intentional about crafting a brand/holistic set of consistent activities (ugh.) Many hire admissions consultants sophomore year.

I guess at this point I’m going to have to have faith in my kid and the process. I don’t want him to be lazy but I also don’t want him to feel pressured to be something he’s not, or to do superficial things for the wrong reasons.

My gut tells me that having a basic hourly wage job at the local Trader Joe’s or pizza joint would be a much better learning experience for him than a more curated/elite experience like a summer research program. I’m also happy to have him around a little bit longer.

We have the same basic rule: you have to do some kind of organized sport (because otherwise we’d be in a constant “go for a walk” battle) and you need to become musically literate/learn an instrument.

The whole concept of “average excellent” is unnerving to me. I sure hope these kids know that they are enough.

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Totally agree about the job thing. I worked in a diner the summer before college and it was eye-opening. I want him to do something that we don’t buy for him (e.g. not another curated expensive made-for-resume summer program.)

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In my observation, the highly curated kids are the ones without your son’s academic chops. And that’s what’s sad… hoping that 12 EC’s and leadership and summer research is going to become more important than solid grades in rigorous classes. And it doesn’t work that way, and so those kids go off defeated to college that somehow they’ve already failed College 101.

I think you have the right idea. He’s got a few things he cares about, he does great in school, and he’s got interests both inside and outside the classroom.

Try to ignore the kids curing cancer for a while!!!

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Trust your gut. IMHO, a job is the single biggest activity that would give his resume some heft. Too many kids go overboard to show how smart they are when all the adcom wants, after wading knee-deep in 1500 SATs and 4.0 gpas is some assurance that they are dealing with an ordinary human being.

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If you’re full pay and you are, you’ll be fine. He does have a few things to list.

Sounds like a great kid who enjoys being a kid. That’s nice to see for a change.

There’s a ton of LACs in that space and I’m guessing many will love to have him. You might add a few more Wooster level, Allegheny like just in case.

There’s also small publics and many schools where ECs don’t matter at all.

My guess is he’ll get into every school you list with a 1500+ SAT as you note is likely. Certainly most. But another safety wouldn’t kill for piece of mind.

Good luck.

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Wasn’t he the kid who studied abroad in France? That can go in his activities list. His language skills probably improved quite a bit and it’s interesting. A paying summer job is a good one to add.
I had one kid who didn’t fill the 10 activities slots but had a grocery store job for several years, two sports for two years each, and a great essay, who ended up at Tulane. The other had a couple good long term ECs with leadership, but nothing super unusual or ground breaking, and is at Lafayette. Both used activities like Yearbook or robotics even when they only did them for a year or two. You can use the “preview” on the Common app activities section to see what the reader will see and then make sure you use all the characters in each box. So, one kid did model UN for a year and did not enjoy it, but described it as something that piqued his interest in environmental laws (he wants env science or engineering as a major). One used a summer engineering camp for a slot. Use what activities you have and try to make a description about what you learned from it or how it shaped your path or skills or perspective on life, even if it wasn’t a serious commitment.

My kids went to a rigorous high school but had fewer APs than your student. Your kid has great academics! I like your list. Is he interviewing at some of them? I know Lafayette, Kenyon and Rochester offer interviews so if he’d be good at that, make sure he applies in time to get one. My kids did regional interviews where the AOs were in our city and had time slots to meet in a coffee shop.

I think that being a male applicant will help at many of these especially Kenyon, St Olaf, Whitman, Wooster. You can look in the common data set to see how many applications they got by gender, and how many enrolled. It’s pretty interesting!

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You could also look at some of the Canadian schools. My kids only looked at the large ones (University of British Columbia, McGill, and University of Toronto) but I know there are a lot of LACs/LAC-like colleges in Canada. And our experience was that the Canadian Universities don’t even ask about ECs – they are mainly stats-focused. And if he would be open to a larger college, McGill has a great international reputation, loves high-stats students and is a lot less expensive than comparable US-schools, especially for students earning an arts degree rather than a science degree (their tuition is major-dependent) – also be sure to translate any monetary amounts from Canadian to US dollars. The dollar is very strong right now compared to Canada.

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I think you are getting good answers (personally, I agree the only thing I would think about doing is strongly encouraging a job).

But can I briefly suggest the concern you are articulating here about outcomes is maybe . . . not so bad? At least with a little reinterpretation.

Like, suppose it is true he ends up at a college where in terms of the whole grades/rigor and test score thing, he is on the higher end of their scale, above their reported 25ths. He probably won’t be strictly alone, but he has better numbers than most kids at that college. I note in most of the cases I know about, if the college has a generally mid-to-higher acceptance rate and your numbers are in that range, it would really take extraordinary circumstances to not get admitted. Just meh ECs would not count as such circumstances.

But suppose also that the kids with lower numbers at that college typically HAVE done some interesting ECs, the sort that made the admissions staff think they would be strong contributors to a college community. They needed that because they did not have such good numbers.

Is this really a bad outcome for your kid? Even holding aside the strong possibility of merit in a situation like that, I am not at all sure that if you are looking at a mix of fellow students with different pros and cons, it is a bad thing to be a kid whose main pro is being one of the best at school stuff.

Now I do think maybe that would be a bad outcome for some individuals. Like, I think some kids really need to be challenged by their peers to do well themselves.

But if that is not your kid, I would not necessarily see this as an actual problem.

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Your kid sounds as if his academic credentials (plus full pay) would get him into every school on your list.

He sounds like a normal 16 year old boy socially, also very smart, very high achieving, a good young man, having a normal high school experience. Has he already taken the PSAT? If not, is it worth it for him to prep for it, so as to get NMSF standing?

From what you have described, he would probably get into some schools with 20% acceptance rates, maybe even 15%, and you’re looking at ones with 40% or higher acceptance rates. He’s not a candidate for tippy top schools, and probably not T20 schools either, but for T30 -T50 type schools, with full pay status, I think he’ll get in. I’m talking places like Carleton, Bates, and the like. Really good small LACs, where he’s going to meet other smart kids. He’s got the rigor. He’s got the grades. He’ll probably have high test scores. I think you might consider some more selective, higher reaches for him.

The reason I say this is that a large part of the college experience is that the student meets his academic peers there, who will challenge and “stretch” him, both in and out of the classroom. That’s why I think he should shoot higher. Your son is not a B student, looking for a good match. He’s an A minus student with a rigorous course load, with an anticipated high test score, because he’s smart, he reads a ton, does all the NYT puzzles every day, and he’s probably good at math and science, too.

I think that an excellent, catchy, creative, thoughtful essay could bring across who he is. When you describe his high school life, honestly, I envy it, and wish my kid could have had that. All my kids did the deep dive intense activity thing, and it worked well for them. But when you describe your son’s life, it has a nostalgic air to it, so normal, so darn emotionally healthy!

Does he have any idea of what he wants to study? Could he get a job this summer related to that? Does he have a particular interest in a particular foreign language? Could you arrange, not a curated, for-pay summer program together with other US kids, but some other type of immersion/exchange, where he spends the summer living in a household in the target language, probably abroad, becoming fluent in that language?

Why does he have to do Calc AB this summer? Does his school require that they do AB before they let them do BC? AB is not an intro to BC; it’s just the first semester of Calc done over two semesters, while BC is the entire year of Calc in two semesters. If he can just register for Calc BC for next year, that frees up his entire summer. Opens up more summer options.

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This summer he wants to take AB calc so that he can take BC next year.

Good catch @parentologist

This is totally unnecessary - even if he was applying to top tier schools. And taking a core math class in a rushed manner wouldn’t be good for the next.

Best to take AB during the school year.

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Typically taking during the school year is better, though if he is taking AP Physics C senior year, it would be best to take Calc AB in advance.

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S22 was not as academically strong as your son (3.7/4.1 - only 4 AP, although it is limited to jr/sr so it was considered competitive) but he was similarly light on ECs. He had a couple of years of soccer/track (2 years each) but no other organized activities - he did have a job (that he got for $$, not because it would look good) and that was it. He spent his time hanging out with friends, teaching himself piano, playing video games, reading etc. He was accepted at the following schools: American, UConn, UMass, Pitt and Syracuse. Unless your kiddo is looking at the very tippy top private schools, I think schools don’t expect incredible ECs - they just want to see what your kid is doing apart from attending school. At most of the schools you have listed I don’t think it will be an issue at all.

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I think your son will get in to every school on your list plus substantial merit aid at most. Please don’t make this time any more stressful than it needs to be. He sounds like a great kid and you should cherish the time you have left with him and not worry about what’s next. (PS - My S25 has a job and it’s been wonderful for him in so many ways. He works at our community wellness center.)

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Your kid is great. From everything you write, things are going great. Many terrific schools will be thrilled to have him. Continue to celebrate and enjoy your child. You are doing everything right.

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My S19 was light on the EC’s . he only did Science olympiad. No sports. Worked at a tech summer camp between junior /Senior year. had SAT, rigor, decent grades. But he decided to go to RIT, not a T20 school. Did well there and has a great paying job now. I will say that your son will be successful at any college he goes to, and the AOs will probably see that too. They will see a “happy , academically motivated kid” They dont want to accept anyone that they think cant handle it. And when at college its not necessary to have EC’s , but rather be a good human being and keep up academically.

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My high stats kids had plenty of EC’s, work, tutoring, club and varsity sports, competitive dance, club officers who did stuff, student ambassadors, peer leadership in church, annual plays, choir, several honor societies… The thing is, they didn’t participate to get college admission, they chased merit so they only applied to safety/targets. It’s just their personalities, they’re joiners, FOMO issues, dislike downtime. They did the same at college. Just because other students might have larger lists doesn’t mean they did it to be a more competitive applicant. They kept GPA’s high, studied for ACT/SAT’s, and took challenging classes for that. None of my kids EC’s would stand out.

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