<p>I’m not worked up, I’m just sick of the class bashing by the trollOP.</p>
<p>Anyone remember this article (or the thread that discussed it)? This is what we are talking about here.</p>
<p><a href=“Poor Students Struggle as Class Plays a Greater Role in Success - The New York Times”>Poor Students Struggle as Class Plays a Greater Role in Success - The New York Times;
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You better believe it does! S1 went out of district to the one really outstanding academic HS in our state and parents were constantly involved with the counselors, teachers, etc. advocating for their kids. The counselors were respsonive and helpful and this school is one of the few in our state that sends kids to Ivys. S2 goes in-district to a different school and while parents are involved, the staff is not as responsive as S1’s school. Overall, though, our experience with S2’s “average” school has been much better … but that’s another post for another thread.</p>
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<p>The PhD parents would be more likely to help the kid with school subjects that the kid has difficulty with than the less educated parents who may not know enough themselves about the subjects, or consider school a waste of time. I.e. the parents can provide the tutoring. And they may be more likely to talk to the teachers and principal on the “back to school night”.</p>
<p>Been working for TRIO-SSS for 22 years now. No, OP, the problem is not scholastic aptitude (although lack of scholastic opportunity shows up, often, in the form of lower test scores and the need for remedial courses). Working class parents may or may not be supportive–that really depends on the community culture. However, parents who haven’t been through the system are at a loss as to how to help. </p>
<p>The biggest problem, however, is financial. No matter how ready a kid is, when paying the bill is a problem, he’s not going to persist.</p>
<p>“What percentage of kids have their parents talking to the principal, tutors helping them study for exams, and get tested for learning disabilities? This sounds like something that only happens at private schools.”</p>
<p>Just the fact you thought this only happens at private schools pretty much proves the point. This is done every day at all public schools but only if the parents are aware of these options.</p>
<p>In D’s high school, it appears a significant number of parents contact teachers and guidance counselors and assistant principals on a weekly basis. Many are college-educated parents who want their kids go to the best colleges (by whatever definition). When they were young, I had my children tested for learning disabilities (and uncovered serious issues that led to tutoring over several years). </p>
<p>So, all these happen in public schools and by ordinary (non-wealthy) parents who happen to know about these options.</p>
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<p>From the article:</p>
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<p>Criminal justice majors have among the lowest SAT scores.</p>
<p>So? Plenty of kids fail college-level calculus or physics. In Brandon’s case, it likely had something to do with the preparation (or lack thereof) for these classes in high school.</p>
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<p>So what? It calls for different skills. </p>
<p>You can be sophisticated and realize that it takes all different kinds of skills and jobs to run the world and that lots of people have plenty to offer, or you can be narrow and arrogant, think that only SAT scores and IQ and STEM pursuits matter, think that people without high IQ’s or certain jobs are not worthwhile, and wind up being sad and pathetic. Which do you choose, Beliavsky?</p>
<p>Its interesting that the authors premise could be challenged by a few minutes on CC.
Just how much research did she do anyway? ;)</p>
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<p>It sounds like working class adults are actually living on their own, it is the ones from families wealthy enough to have more than one bathroom who are seeing their kids at breakfast.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1535961-study-record-number-21-million-young-adults-living-parents.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1535961-study-record-number-21-million-young-adults-living-parents.html</a></p>
<p>In fact the middle class & up seem to embrace their role in enabling the “peter pan” generation.</p>
<p>* What are my wife and I supposed to do with a 4 bedroom home? As long as my children are studying full time, working, or seriously looking for work, what’s wrong with their being with their parents?*</p>
<p>*And the fact that anyone here might draw such conclusions suggests that even the financially secure and well-educated sometimes lack basic comprehension skills. *</p>
<p>Really. What’s the point? I mean, really, Bel, what is the point of digging up stuff to get a thread rolling? One of these days we’ll start voting with our feet and quit responding to these stray dog links.</p>
<p>[I used to think some posters started lots of threads because maybe drawing interest was a way to become a mod. Now I just wonder, *why?*]</p>
<p>Yeah, like Marian and others have said, the things excerpted by the OP (and I agree with SomeOldGuy’s assessment too) have nothing to do with a student’s academic ability. </p>
<p>And while love, the acquisition of knowledge, and the desire to advocate for one’s child can go a long way, it has been my experience that the willingness to advocate well beyond bounds (like, extraordinary exceptions to prevent students from being expelled, etc.) for one’s child, facility with the legal and social language usually required to advocate well beyond bounds, and, perhaps most importantly, the expectation of possible success all tend to increase as a family’s socioeconomic status increases.</p>
<p>NOTICE: this paragraph is based on my experience and non-systematic observations. I make no claim that my experience and observations are representative of any trends. Furthermore, I acknowledge that these are generalizations and I make no claim that my observations and experiences explain, predict, etc. the behavior of others. Most of my students who grew up wealthy appear to have absorbed the lesson that rules can be stretched and broken and, if you have a certain status, are really more “suggestions.” This truth has been a part of them for their entire lives and they act on it with an almost instinctual ease that makes others comfortable and increases their chances of success. My students who did not grow up wealthy usually learn this lesson, but they are often hesitant to act on their knowledge and sometimes they don’t act with ease and, without intending to, make others uncomfortable and less likely to help them.</p>
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<p>Ah, but she is a post-doc at the Kennedy School at Harvard. We should all be duly impressed.</p>
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<p>The point is that there is too much cheerleading for the notion that everyone should go to college. The article I posted that shows that the expectations of many students are dashed. There needs to be more information about outcomes such as graduating and getting a college-level job conditional on student attributes such as high school grades and test scores.</p>
<p>I think a lot of us believe that lots of kids who go to college shouldn’t. But that was not the point of the thread the way you positioned it. You went right to “scholastic aptitude,” which we know from your previous posts you believe is higher in whites and Asians and more affluent people. Few people here would say working-class or poor students should be categorically denied the same opportunities for a college education just because of their misfortune of being born with fewer resources than other kids.</p>
<p>High school grades and test scores are not “student attributes.” They are outcomes based on the preparation students have had since birth, among other factors. They do not measure native intelligence, nor can they. You have beaten this argument to death and it still doesn’t hold.</p>
<p>Right, Brandon’s hopes were dashed. Do you not realize how format plays in these articles? Can’t you sniff it out? </p>
<p>For this discussion, maybe it’s time for me to say this: for all the talk about scores and IQ and who deserves what and what predicts gpa in soph college year and who’s dumb because they couldn’t cut a STEM major or who’s doomed by race or family SES, etc, etc, etc- and this is my opinion only- </p>
<p>considering what comes across as protecting one’s own interests or advocating for one’s own (or one’s group’s) quantitative superiority, there is a surprising lack of critical thinking.</p>
<p>Thank you SLACfac for the disclaimer.</p>
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<p>How does it affect you in any way, shape or form? Your kids are bright due to your superior genetics and choice of mate; and even if they weren’t, of course you would drill them non-stop to become practically perfect in all ways STEM, because that’s what you value. You will, of course, ensure that the least amount is spent on their education, perhaps moving it online due to all the liberal mishegas at Harvard and the like, because who needs people, amirite?</p>
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<p>But that’s precisely how Beliavsky thinks. Judge by the group, not by the individual. See, for normal people, it doesn’t even <em>matter</em> whether indeed, on average, Asians are smarter than whites who are in turn smarter than blacks. Because we deal with the individual in front of us who is applying to that school or that job or whatever. But with people who are sadly lacking in any kind of skill beyond computational, they need a heuristic - and judging everyone by the average performance of some attribute they possess is all they can come up with. You see, it’s hard for people like Beliavsky to evaluate someone holistically. They just don’t have what it takes. But rather than try to develop those skills, better just to pretend they aren’t important.</p>
<p>^That’s actually the best explanation of this way of thinking that I have seen. Makes perfect sense.</p>
<p>Lack of “scholastic aptitude” isn’t a class issue. Preparation for college and all that it entails, psychologically, socially, economically - is. </p>
<p>I think it’s always been hard for working-class kids to get into/succeed in college, but today it’s even harder. There’s greater disparity between the haves-and-have-nots, and the working class increasingly falls into the have-not category. </p>
<p>That said, I do know of examples where kids with a lack of “scholastic aptitude” - poor grades in school, dislike of school, etc. - with time found themselves academically. Many of them studied part-time while working. They relied on the community colleges and then transferred to state college system. A nephew is about to get a bachelor’s degree in accounting. It took him eight years (false starts, full time job, etc) but he did it. The family is very proud of him. </p>
<p>It’s nice that the education system was able to be there for him, and others like him too. In many countries, they would have been written off as academic material years earlier.</p>
<p>PS, Pizzagirl, awesome post.</p>