<p>
</p>
<p>This may sound crude, but I don’t have much trouble telling Jews and other white people apart. Last names tend to be different from other whites as well–Levin, Rosen, Goldberg, etc. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is a fair point which in my opinion lends credence to the distinction often made between voluntary and involuntary minorities.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I look at black Americans and African immigrants and do indeed see some kind of culture gap. Black America has some ways to go in order to combat the virulent anti-intellectualism rife in its dominant culture. But there are still obstacles of institutional racism that need to be dismantled, and too many conservatives have no interest in breaking down unfair barriers and are too gleeful in berating and chastizing black Americans, as if they have any idea what it’s like to be them.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Field a team of untalented white basketball players and you’ll become worse than the New York Knicks. </p>
<p>Field a team of unremarkable and undeserving white investment bankers, and you might be worse than Bear Stearns but you’ll get the government to bail you out.</p>
<p>See the difference? Minorities tend to succeed in endeavours that produce absolute victory or absolute loss. In the greyer areas, white privilege is still allowed to fester.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s easily changeable through names. Hell, many black people have all-American last names like Washington and Jefferson, yet they’re not going to be readily admitted to exclusive country clubs or featured in an A&F catalogue.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Enough of this “white privelege” garbage, that’s more excuses from the liberals. Here’s another instance of white privelege I always hear: legacies getting admitted to Ivies. Well ya know what, legacies actually have higher SATs than the average admit.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m also not denying that some amount of white privelege exists, but its minimal. If it really existed to the extent that you believe it keeps down blacks, then Jews would never dominate investment firms, law firms, doctor offices, Harvard Yale and Princeton, etc like they do. </p>
<p>And don’t be so general in your statement above. Blacks and Hispanics (not MINORITIES b/c that would include Asians) lag far behind whites/Asians in intellectual endeavors, such as white collar work, standardized testing, college admissions, etc. In physical endeavors such as blue collar work and sports, occupations that require improvisatory skills like music and comedy, or occupations that require a powerful and assertive personality like school disciplinarian or secretary at the DMV, they tend to dominate. </p>
<p>And the intellectual disparity isn’t between averages of the entire black and white population. Rather, at every socioeconomic level, a sizable disparity exists. For example, poor whites score better than poor blacks (on SAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT, state testing, GPA). Then, also, rich whites score better than rich blacks and the difference is usually identical to the difference between poor whites and poor blacks. (Of course this only applies to whole populations and not individual blacks or whites.)</p>
<p>Dontno, the arguement that you cite is a reason to substaniate AA, if you look at the successful black applicants to Ivy schools you will see that the vast majority of overachivers who are black are actually African. In fact the highest scorer at my school (which is a well to do area) is a black african scored a 2300 on SAT, and it is not just him, other African immigrants outpreform and score on similar level to Asians. Why? Obviously bc of cultural standards.
AA, attempts to acknowledge those cultural rifts and attempts to alleviate barriers, bc of it. I am a conservative Republican evangelical so do not call this liberal dribble. But as a black person there is NOT a intelligence gap (heck I taught myself quantum mechanics), there is a cultural gap. Even amongst affulent minorities (as the ones at our school whose parents own multiple businesses and drive BMWs and Mercedes) there is a perception of youth that somehow education is not important.
Does this mean that I in pragmatic society get a boost in admission? No. But the point of this thread is to address a) why AA is instituionalized and b) the benefits therein, to introduce the topic from another viewpoint. But ultimately the threaad dissolved into the usual excuses.
As a conservative I would argue that it is in fact the responibility of individuals (such as myself) to take responsibilty for education and value it, but for many that is hard.
Case in point there are 3 black ppl in the top ten percent at my school: me at 16/526, a girl at 33/526 and the 2300 scorer at 43/526. If you asked any of our classmates they would say that we are not black, bc we do not demonstrate the cultural conception of what a black person is. But that is okay bc we are around Asians and whites. But at an inner city school the same black ppl are surrounded around black ppl, then when a person is labeled as “not black” or “Oreo” as I have often been called then it becomes harder.
Really in looking at the lack of achievement of minorities, do not just chock it up to them being less intelligent bc that is not the case it is a societal and pyschological case, and I would hope that colleges keep AA on the basis that they can more effectively understand the context in which minorities grow up or that they face and acknowledge that it is harder for a minority person.
This is even more apparent in the fields of science and mathematics, I was the only black person in Honors Pre-Cal and there were two blacks in AP Chem (me and the girl who was 33). Also at science competitions as well, this has not really affected me as much because I am alot more accustomed to this, but I would tell ppl when they exhibit anger towards AA to try to look beyond pure statistics and try to understand the sociological implications that contribute to such things.</p>
<p>I’m not denying that culture doesn’t play a part. But you clearly missed an important aspect of my point:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The disparity between white/Asian and black is present at all income levels. Thus rich blacks score significantly below (about 1 SD) rich whites. Further, as on the SAT, rich blacks score almost identically to poor whites. And let’s be honest, do you honestly think poor white people who grow up in trailer parks, attend rural schools or largely black schools in large cities such as Detroit, are the sons and daughters of blue collar workers, are in an environment worse for academic success than a middle class or upper class black kid attending suburban schools and who’s parents have white collar jobs. Yet, they score almost identically.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I honestly used to believe that black underacheivement was due solely to black urban culture. Yet, after seeing the statistics for higher income blacks and skimming through portions of *The Bell Curve<a href=“which%20don’t%20be%20fooled,%20it%20hasn’t%20be%20disproven”>/I</a>, I changed my mind. </p>
<p>And of course, your anecdotal evidence regarding success is inconsequential. Further, it’s important to understand averages of large groups, such as American blacks because it affects policy such as AA. Yet, as you prove, averages DO NOT apply to individuals and anyone who believes they do is prejudice.</p>
<p>If you want a brief summary on the issue, here’s a good article (take off your PC helmet though before reading!):</p>
<p>[The</a> Wall Street Journal Online - Extra](<a href=“http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007391]The”>http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007391)</p>
<p>(A really interesting test is the “digit backwards test” summarized in the article.")</p>
<p>The main objection I have is that to look at that data and make an analysis crafted around economics, would point to innate lack of intelligence on the part of African Americans. But I chanllege that by the arguements about Africans who outperform even Asians:</p>
<p>According to the London Daily Times “Black Africans have emerged as the most highly educated members of British society, surpassing even the Chinese as the most academically successful ethnic minority.”</p>
<p>and this:</p>
<p>[RealClearPolitics</a> - Articles - Black Immigrants, An Invisible ‘Model Minority’](<a href=“http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/black_immigrants_an_invisible.html]RealClearPolitics”>RealClearPolitics - Articles - Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority')</p>
<p>These statistics indicate that it is not the genetics that determines an individuals capability but rather sociological factors. </p>
<p>The Bell Curve is unrealiable mostly because if I am not mistaken it focuses on US students, which are not indicative of genetics of a group. Also as far as economics is concerned read in my post where I speak about wealthy blacks youth who may simply not value education as much.</p>
<p>This taken in context means that the disparity in performance has to be due to culture, but there is no biological basis for this. Also if you have ever been involved in math or science competitions who will see that many of the blacks are actually African as well as many of those who attend Ivy League schools, and these black students are NOT inferior at all. Again although anecdotal evidence does not matter as it can not be substaniated, my friend who is African has two brothers who both got perfect scores on the SAT one is a Princeton and the other is at UT (Bc he did not have good grades freshman year). </p>
<p>If you ever meet or engage with Africans you will notice the cultural disparities amongst blacks and Africans, and although few ppl who are not black know this. Black Africans actually look down on black ppl bc we are viewed as less. Black Africans actually have an extreme pride in being African and may even look down on whites and Asians.
Given these glaring statistics it obviously points out two things: 1)Black Africans and black Americans are not teethered based on genetical factors, and 2) there has to be a social context for why Black Americans do poorly while Black Africans out preform even Asians.
The one glaring dichotomy is obviously the subjugation that Black Americans were subjected to as opposed to Black Africans. I am not making excuses as past should not deter anyone from performing to the hieght of thier ability. But it obviously shows that the main reason Blacks Americans as a group do poorly is because of previous subjugation, which is why AA was implemented to correct said injustices.
Since statistics show that there is still an apparent gap then there is still a basis for Affirmative Action.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This doesn’t matter. White poor youths value education even less than rich black youths. Yet, the poor whites score better. Further, I doubt rich blacks value education less than rich whites. I grew up amongst the most middle class white people. Almost every single one of my friends went to the local state school or a handful of party schools around the nation (one of my friends remarking, "I’m going to WVU, basically to smoke weed and party all the time). And while on the subject of culture, the stereotype of suburban white kids is that they drink and party all the time, especially in college. </p>
<p>But I’m not really just talking education here, The Bell Curve is almost entirely based around IQ scores. And before you start bashing IQ scores, look at the digit-backwards test, which is a clear example that some type of mental difference is apparent. Also, there are a number of crap IQ tests which have cultural biases, but blacks score just as worse on non-culturally biased IQ tests (such as the Raven Matrices). </p>
<p>I’m also not stating the intelligence disparity is all genetic, but rather around 75% (from studies I’ve read). Nurture problems, especially from inner-city blacks, cause a small amount of the disparity on IQ tests.</p>
<p>And I’m well aware of the achievement of African IMMIGRANTS. One of my best friends in high school was the son of a Nigerian, who BTW have the highest rate of college degree out of any American ethnicity. SO I’m not denying that maybe Africans are a better “model minority”. Yet, that term is probably used against Asians partly as a pejorative, alluding to the stereotypically more passive Asian behavior patterns.</p>
<p>But I digress. Here’s the point. African IMMIGRANTS are a very biased sample of people with African genes. They tend to be the brightest individuals in their home country. It’s like taking the average IQ of white Americans by testing white Ivy Leaguers. That’s absurd.</p>
<p>African-Americans, the descendants of slaves, tend to have a slightly higher IQ than Africans as a whole (difference of 1/3 SD I believe). The reason they’re different is because of whites having children with their slaves. (Little known fact is that the average black in America has 16% white genes.) </p>
<p>There’s really just no way to get around the IQ data, other than to dismiss IQ testing altogether. But then all the other measures of intelligence, including every standardized test and the achievement disparity between whites and blacks, must be thrown out too.</p>
<p>Dontno, this is a bit off topic, but for arguments sake, even if what you said was true, that Asians and Whites are smarter than Blacks( thats obviously what you are trying to say), what good can come of it? I’ll tell you. None. If society comes to accept the data’s implications, it’ll only stigmatize Blacks to a point that’s far worse than what AA can achieve. I can clearly envisage the ramifications; eugenics, social isolation, relegation to lower societal positions via “efficient” highschool vocational programs etc. And doesn’t this go against your view that AA shouldn’t be used? After all, in a fair society, we would sweep the data under the rug, while adcoms would consciously accept its veracity and use AA to give Blacks and other “low IQ” minorities a hands out. </p>
<p>Of course, for the record, I don’t believe the data’s implications are true at all.</p>
<p>To further upon coffee break. If the data where true and blacks did have a lower IQ than whites (which is still non substaniated or accepted scientifically) then it would be even a stronger arguement for AA, because to have equitable representation (for diversity sake) then blacks would not need to have as high scores bc they couldn’t attain them. That in itself is fallacious.
The arguements that African immigrants are the brightest in their home country is wrong, bc it is the children on the immigrants that we interact with (even in your example the friend’s PARENT’S were immigrants not the child. So that means the children of immigrants are not the smartest in the home country bc they are often born here. This coulped with the fact that intelligence is not genetic then points to the fact that it is the nurture or evinorment or sociology or what have you that impacts performance more than some innate capability.
The problem with using scores as a metric of intelligence is that they show an a posteri position, but in order to evaluate wholitiscally you need to have an a priori analysis.</p>
<p>Well, according to this video, the Asians here are the elite from Asia as are the Africans Debate mentioned. And the one thing that mattered the most: culture. [YouTube</a> - CNN: Are asian students smarter?](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opBfHXePM2Y&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opBfHXePM2Y&feature=related)</p>
<p>…what about Hispanics? I haven’t seem much argument involving them, but they are clearly in a different situation than Blacks.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Could you please provide a source?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No they don’t. That’s why colleges force them to matriculate a year later than normal so that they don’t attract too much attention. They’re called “development cases”. If they actually had higher-than-average SAT scores, they’d just be called “ideal applicants”.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wow.</p>
<p>First of all, it’s quite telling how you’re willing to dismiss African immigrant achievement as unrepresentative of the African race because they’re the cream of the crop. But then, you contradict yourself by using another select group (in this case, African-Americans) and try to hold them up as the flag bearers of their race. If African immigrants represent the most motivated and bright, then African-Americans should undoubtedly represent the most demoralized and oppressed.</p>
<p>Secondly, if you are unwilling to legitimize the achievements of immigrants, then why do you uphold Asians so much? It is not a remarkable thing that Asian doctors and Asian engineers immigrate to America and raise young future lawyers and businessmen and scientists. I don’t know if you have some kind of 19th century complex where every Asian immigrant is poor and desperate because, after all, there are no real wealthy countries in Asia, right? But the fact that Southeast Asian immigrants, a much poorer part of Asia, do not do as well as their richer East Asian counterparts shows that you can’t simply play Asians and blacks off on one another to further the conservative agenda.</p>
<p>Thirdly, you pretty much attribute the supposed (I’ll need a source) African-American’s 16% advantage in IQ, relative to native Africans, to their 16% whiteness. That’s all I’ll say.</p>
<p>I didn’t read everything here but I really like Dbate’s point about how Africans are doing well in his school. I do not think that black people are dumb. I think that American blacks have cultural problems that African blacks don’t have. If any race grew up with no father or fathers who ONLY abused them (no crying here Asian people), and mom’s who worked 2 low paying jobs, always surrounded by gangs, drugs, violence and basically you have to grow up on your own, you’d be pretty messed up too and wouldn’t give 2 cents about education. Heck, you can just play ball and make millions. Africans grow up in a much more culture friendly and family oriented atmosphere that stresses education and thus African blacks do just as well as any other race. </p>
<p>And when you say that Asians and whites outperform blacks at every tier of the economic scale, remember that you’re just comparing against American blacks who have a different sense of culture than the rest of us. They don’t necessarily care for education as much as other things.</p>
<p>
The only thing untrue is <em>why</em>. Genetics, environment, or both.</p>
<p>
Huh? That’s the reason to <em>not</em> have something. That’s just inefficient, trying to make something equal which will never be equal.</p>
<p>Culture is everything…that is why Jews and Asians have been so successful despite discrimination.</p>
<p>Actually Mr. Payne you are quite wrong. Ppl are equal given the opportunities that other have. Ppl look to minority achievement and so they do worse so they must be dumber, but that in itself is an inefficient analysis of statistics.
Black ppl did not have the same opportunities as whites until roughly 40 years ago. Remember that even though integration was ordered legally it did not automatically take place (bc Johnson and states rights). Even in areas that are seen as liberal say Boston there were riots at the notion of integration, so just bc someone was sitting in a class next to some one else, the hostility of the environment itself would have been a detriment that would inhibit equal education. In this light within 40 years black ppl came from being basically housemaids and dishwashers to potentially being President of the WHOLE United States, so who is dumb again? Oh and black ppl are not equal we as a group have done much more than ANY American group, black ppl were the ones who choose to attain rights and when we did get them we used them and that still happens today, sure not all blacks perform on the same level, but give us time. It took Jews a few generations to perform extraordinarially well, and that was without as much systematic rascism as blacks face. A generation is roughly defined as 40 years, so it has been one generation and that is true, bc MY uncle’s class was the FIRST integrated class at his high school, and that was in the 70’s.
It is true black ppl are not equal we have done so much more with what we have that it is an insult to bring us down to white ppl’s level.</p>
<p>
Wrong about what? The IQ differential? That is well recorded and not debatable.</p>
<p>As I said previously, the only thing to debate is <em>WHY</em> this occurs. Environment, genetics, or both.</p>
<p>No if you read the post it is about where you say:
“trying to make something equal which will never be equal”</p>