The Case For Affirmative Action

College Confidential Community
81

<p>So i guess it’s my turn to respond. Since I’ll have to do so much copy and pasting and responding, I will try to ignore typos and not care about making it sound pretty. I’ll also try to limit my response to a few egregious errors I noted. Mr. Payne responded to a few points I would have noted.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>OK but you provide no reasoning against it. You can’t just close your ears and say no. I do agree that stigmitization is inevitable and I worry that this type of undeniable data which in my mind proves blacks, ON AVERAGE, are less intelligent than whites (who I also believe from IQ data are less intelligent than Asians) can be construed incorrectly. People don’t understand the concept of an average and the individual.</p>

<p>

and

</p>

<p>You don’t actually believe intelligence is not genetic??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! African immigrants are the smartest in their country and their kids inherit that intelligence so their success is representative of a biased sample. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Nope. Development admits are a handful (maybe 20-30) kids. Legacies are people whose parents (or other family members) attended. I honestly can’t find a study about it, but I have read it. If anything, they’re surely not about 175 (/1600) below the average like black AA-admits are at elite universities. But this is off-topic so whatev.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Afircan immigrants are the cream of the crop! There’s no doubt about it. JUst like Asian immigrants students at AMerican universities (many of whom come from Singapore and are required to graduate in 3 years at full tuition scholarship) are also the cream of the crop. I also never said African-AMericans are indicative of the entire race. If anything, they’re far above African peoples (based on IQ scores). But African Americans are not fully African because of white-black breeding during slavery. They have white genes. Here’s some data: [IQ</a> and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations]IQ”>IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Look at the most of the bottom IQ averages. Mos tof them are African countries. Blacks in Ameircan have an IQ average of around 85 while whites are around 100. And not all black (or white) ethnicities have the same average intelligence. Even amongst Jews, the Ashkenazi (like Einstein and Feynman) have way higher IQ’s then Sephardic Jews (in fact, almost every famous Jewish scientist or intellectual is Ashkenazi.)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>They have significantly lower IQ’s that’s why. China and Korea are much higher than Thailand and Malaysia.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well yes white-black breeding changed their genetic make-up. Your denying this?? Blacks in AMerican have lighter skin than native Africans right? Whies have a higher IQ and when breeded with native West Africans, who have a lower IQ, the average for their children went up. If Asians started breeding with blacks at a high rate, their average musculature would increase. It’s that simple.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>God i already broached this! Black urban culture is an outgrwoth of southern redneck culture. (On a side note, there are actually more dumb white people in AMeirca than all the blacks total.) Yet, despite the same values and problems that you list above, POOR whites score close to (maybe slightly better, not sure) on IQ tests than RICH blacks and score almsot identically (slightly better) on the SAT, GRE, LSAt, MCAT, etc. So you’re still going to tell me that poor, blue collar, rednecks value education and social mobility more than middle and upper class blacks? HONESTLY?!?!?!</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Again, see above. And the disparity, about 1 SD, is present on even the simple test of repeating a random sequence of digits backwards. (see link below)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes that’s it, just culture. That’s why Jews have won about 30% of NObel prizes in science (while being 2% of the world’s population) despite not being let into top European universities and being the poorest groups in every European country (this is early 19th century).</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>No one is stating every black person is stupid. It’s called a distribution.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Not really, they were performing well at the same time as been systematically discriminated against (ever hear of the Inquisition?). And when HYP lifted their Jewish quotas (in the 60’s), it took almost no time for them to dimnate the white pops there.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well I think we know who the racist is! I think I know what you’re trying to say but it didn’t come out right. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since you seem intelligent.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>See MInnesota Twin study of twins reared apart. Genetics account for about 75% of the disparity. Environment (NOT CULTURE) accounts for the rest. Enviro includes breast feeding and other stuff I don’t feel liek stating.</p>

<p>Also, let jsut add I bleieve that Affirmative action was great in the 60’s. Black as a whole needed a boost. Furhter, plenty of smart black people were able to take advantage of it and use that for social mobility, effectively creating the black middle class. But it’s enough. It’s not working any more and the people that could use have used it. The IQ disparity will never go away and to think social programs will do it is naive.</p>

<p>Finally, IF YOU WANT TO RESPOND TO ME, QUOTE EXACTLY WHAT I SAY. STOP GIVING GENERAL ARGUMENTS THAT I’VE ALREADY GIVEN RESPONSES TO. </p>

<p>If you’d like evidence of racial differences, watch the Olympics ,espeically the 100 m dash final (which alreayd happened, but whatev). In the past 7 Olympics, not one non-West African descendent has competed in the final (56 competitors)! West Africans tend to have long legs and icnreased musculature. Then watch the marathon, doeminated by East Africans like the Kenyans. tHey tend to have skinny builds great for long distance running (see Obama). Then watch gymnatics where Chinese dominate, short stocky builds. </p>

<p>No one race is better, just different (ON AVERAGE)! For sical policies, these averages are important, but not for social interactions. Individuals matter.</p>

<p>Here’s ome more: [The</a> Wall Street Journal Online - Extra](<a href=“http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007391]The”>http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007391)</p>

<p>Please respond as well!!! I took a very long time to respond to yours.</p>

82

<p>I’ve just read this thread end to end. I will tell you that I call myself a liberal and I think it is time back off of AA. When I speak of AA I am not just talking about admissions but of the many scholarship opportunities afforded to black and hispanic applicants that are unavailable to white students. We definitely want our college campuses to be diverse but diversity is not just limited to the presence of blacks and hispanics there are many many minorites. I agree with prior posters who favor AA for disadvantaged individuals but I see students with affluent backgrounds often claiming minority status sometimes with only a small percentage of actual minority lineage. My point is that once an individual reaches a level of self sufficiency it is time for them to stand on their own. All minorities have their history of struggles, and while the history of slavery in the US is among the most appaling it also seems that when individuals have achieved the tools to succeed there is no reason to handout advantages. Perhaps at times it is right for a black student to have advantages as a white student from South Dakota does in the spirit of achieving campus diversity but this should be on par with advantages given to all minorities. This is a different entity from providing advantages for people who are growing up in a situation where they have potential to stand on their own but life has dealt them circumstances that make this impossible. I will say that while it is true that white minorities are less visible than minorities of color and that name changes are a possibility, name changes are an unfortuante necessity for some people. Changing ones name is relinquishing a part of the essense of who an individual is and is by no means an easy fix. Debate, while you have been a minority of one or two in some of your classes my kids have been a minority of one through most of their public school education. I don’t think they ever shared the experience of feeling less competent in a class because of this as you did. But make no mistake about it there are definitely daily occurrances that can make a person feel like an outsider as well as opportunities that may have been withheld because of their minority status. This is life and you deal with it move on and remember to be thankful for all the blessings that you have. It can be a struggle to be a minority but statements liKe “It is true black ppl are not equal we have done so much more with what we have that it is an insult to bring us down to white ppl’s level.” are divisive and don’t help anyone’s argument.</p>

83

<p>

So you think that if the IQ gap is genetic we need to always have affirmative action. Okay. I disagree with that opinion.</p>

<p>If something is naturally occurring it should stay naturally occurring.</p>

84

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t think it really matters if provide any reasoning( but if you want to be austere, look at post #71. The video said, at least for Asians, a subset of the very best of them are immigrants to the US). I made the argument that if other races are, on average, smarter than Blacks, its better to not to go around advocating its truth because doing so would be extremely detrimental for Blacks. </p>

<p>But yes, if true, my stance around AA changes. Adcoms should find some clandestine way to implement AA because if what the Bell Curve says is true, that society is increasingly becoming socioeconomically stratified as IQ becomes a de fracto requirement for virtually every position.</p>

85

<p>Perhaps I am missing something but it seems to me that all of this talk about statistics is not relevant to the discussion of AA. From my understanding AA came about to allow groups who had been victims of discrimination an opportunity to rise and pave the way for future generations to thrive. The thought being that without these opportunities these groups would remain victims of discrimination and never have a opportunity to the avenues that would allow them to move up. As has been mentioned by prior posters there is a difference between statistical predictions and individual capabilities (or something like that). AA doesn’t open the floodgates and allow masses of minorities into ivy schools. It lowers the bar for some of those at the top of that group. It is a system that helps individuals and therefore it shouldn’t be judged on bell curves related to IQ or standardiized tests. Most people never rise to their full potential anyway so this seems unimportant. I believe that while all people have genetic predispositions to specific abilities a culture which values individual abilities allows them to be cultivated. I believe that AA has helped many who are of minority backgrounds to cultivate values for education. Therefore for many it has done its job. At this time it seems that AA based only on factors of race is no longer appropriate. This is not to say that there are not many out there who deserve a helping hand.</p>

86

<p>181818, you said it right</p>

<p>It DID help those who deserved a helping hand.</p>

<p>AND</p>

<p>“At THIS TIME it seems that AA based only on factors of race is no longer appropriate”</p>

87

<p>Dontno I do not quote what you say bc I don’t know how to embed quotes so I will do the best I can.</p>

<p>You: “You don’t actually believe intelligence is not genetic??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! African immigrants are the smartest in their country and their kids inherit that intelligence so their success is representative of a biased sample.”</p>

<p>Me: Again you are conflating immigrants and thier children. African immigrants may be smart, but there children are the ones who take the SAT and attend college and these are ppl who are either born here or were raised in the US thier entire lives. They do not represent the cream of the crop for Africa they are regular Americans. You have provided no evidence that intelligence is genetic, but i will show the contrapositive to be true.</p>

<p>[The</a> Science Creative Quarterly THE GENETIC BASIS OF INTELLIGENCE](<a href=“http://www.scq.ubc.ca/the-genetic-basis-of-intelligence/]The”>THE GENETIC BASIS OF INTELLIGENCE | SCQ)</p>

<p>The link speaks to the fact that intelligence is consisent of genetic and environmental impact. From that standpoint that would mean white ppl’s genes are not the sole determiner of there intelligence but also there environment, this therefore is where the dichotomy can be attributed.</p>

<p>This presents the closing of the gap v genetic intelligence:</p>

<p>[Closing</a> the Black/White IQ Gap?: James Flynn and Charles Murray search for a solution. - Reason Magazine](<a href=“http://www.reason.com/news/show/116991.html]Closing”>Closing the Black/White IQ Gap?)</p>

<p>"In Jewish households there is a lot of screaming, but eventually the kids sit down and do their homework. In black families, a kid sits down to do his homework and Dad comes home and says, “Hey, why don’t we go out back and shoot a couple of baskets.”
Personally I cannot recount the numerous times such instances have occurred to myself. I would be working on homework, or sicence research, or praticing trumpet, to have it interupted to clean up. There are environmental factors that are impacting IQ results to deny that is ingnorance. </p>

<p>You: Yes that’s it, just culture. That’s why Jews have won about 30% of NObel prizes in science (while being 2% of the world’s population) despite not being let into top European universities and being the poorest groups in every European country (this is early 19th century).</p>

<p>Me: If you know anything about Jewish culture or Chinese culture or even Indian culture you would know that these groups consider education as of prime importance. Examples: Jews used education as a means to be succesful bc they had to work hard in order to overcome the discrimination in every country they encountered. From Spain to Georgia to America Jewish ppl rose to the top. Chinese ppl work on a very meritocratic society that causes them to preform well or fail, there is no hand holding. The Chinese of today are the products of parents who made it through that system and thier children undoubtly will also work hard. Indians preform well bc in Hinduism (according to my bio teacher who is Hindu) there are two levels of veneration: parents and then teachers. Education is ingrained within each of these cultures. All this points to the fact that environment is contributing to the high preformance of these groups.</p>

<p>You: “Look at the most of the bottom IQ averages. Mos tof them are African countries. Blacks in Ameircan have an IQ average of around 85 while whites are around 100. And not all black (or white) ethnicities have the same average intelligence. Even amongst Jews, the Ashkenazi (like Einstein and Feynman) have way higher IQ’s then Sephardic Jews (in fact, almost every famous Jewish scientist or intellectual is .)”</p>

<p>Me: I have two responses:

  1. From right above this you quote a link that correlates the wealth of a nation to Intelligence, yet then ignore the fact that many African countries are impoverished. This amounts to a contradiction if wealth (which is a non-genetic factor) can be correlated to intelligence then it shows that there are obvious other factors that impact IQ.
  2. The dichotomy presented between Jewish ppl is erroneous bc Jews were often isolated from other populations and did not reproduce with non jews:
    “the Ashkenazim were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews.”
    Since Jews orginated from the same place, thier genetics would be similar, what this represents is evidence for what i have been saying that environment is influences intelligence follow this:</p>

<p>The two groups of Jews migrated from a similar location bearing the same genetic makeup. One group the Sephardic entered into a socitey that in the 700s became dominated by Islam, which allowed them opportunites to excel in Islamic court bc they did not have the inherit bias against jews to believe they killed THE LORD. Contrast this to the Ashkenazim who were in German countries who held Christian bias, this bias hindered them from rising to such levels of prominence and inhibited their IQ. From this a gap emerged that still persists today. You yourself say:
“Even amongst Jews, the Ashkenazi (like Einstein and Feynman) have way higher IQ’s then Sephardic Jews (in fact, almost every famous Jewish scientist or intellectual is .)”</p>

<p>What this means is that if Jews placed in two seperate environments with the same genetic makeup experience a dichotomy of intelligence still present to this day based on environmental factors of discrimination that occured hundreds of years ago, it is not unreasonable to see a dichotomy between the intelligence of blacks and whites with discrimination that occured about 40 years ago.</p>

88

<p>To everyone who says that SAT prep classes dont make a difference and that African immigrants/children of Africans SHOULD NOT be perceived as “URM’s”:</p>

<p>A friend of mine who is an upper-middle class black american took the SAT’s for the first time and got in the 1000’s (out of 1600) with no prep classes. She goes to a MUCH better high school than me but takes honors/regular-level classes. I go to a sub-par school w/ avrg SAT in the 800’s (the majority of the students are low-income black americans) but i take all AP/IB classes. By studying A LOT during the summer I was able to get a 1300 the first time I took it in Nov. According to my teachers, guidance counselors my score was “great” for whatever colleges I applied to, even ivies. but Collegeboard.com and CC said otherwise and I prepared from March to May for my 2nd retake. I couldnt afford a prep class, and the most I could spend w/ the money earned from a PT job was $40. I bought two books and along with some FREE online resources, used those as study materials for the SAT. Meanwhile, my friend was taking a $300+ prep course. Our scores came at the end of May:</p>

<p>Hers- 1270/1600
Mine- 1310/1600 </p>

<p>She also took the ACT and got a 23. Her parents (who both have college degrees) are forcing her, again, to take a prep class. My parents dont know anything about those standardized tests, and unlike many asian parents, have not had to deal w/ the pressure of national examinations. </p>

<p>We are applying to some of the same schools including UPenn, Duke, and Georgetown. Who should get the affirmative action , the low-income african immigrant with a high gpa/rank, lots of EC’s and awards but medicore test scores, or the higher-income black w/ a lower gpa who, yeah, might have faced the same isolation as the OP (she goes to a mostly white/asian school as well) but that doesnt bother her much b/c she DOES fit in from a socio-economic viewpoint. I dont fit in with the “average black student” at my school but i know africans-- and asians and whites— who DO. What separates my school from the more high-achieving schools in my county is mostly economical, cultural issues and THEN racial ones. For example, our school has an english as a second language program and we get LOTS of hispanics who barely comprehend english but have to take the same state tests as everyone else (according to No Child Left Behind) Add this problem to the other socioeconomic issues, unqualified teachers and faculty, etc and what do u get? A mess of a school where even the so-called “AP and IB” students (who are not wealthy as are a few asians in my class) score below average on standardized tests. And unlike my black friend I mentioned earlier, they CANT afford prep classes, tutors, qualified teachers, etc.
I am not saying that colleges should punish all minorities who are rich and go to private schools and/or are african in heritage. I do agree with whoever posted that article about africans in ivy league schools. I personally know several who fit that mold: parents are well-educated, children perform really well in mostly “white” schools and they end up going to H/Y/P/S/Duke. I wish there was a study on how many of those Africans/blacks at ivies are upper-middle class. I bet those numbers would be more shocking than the Africans vs. blacks in ivies story.</p>

89

<p>Here’s the deal…my opinion about Affirmative Action. As long as the rich brats of wealthy whites get a break on their qualifications because mommy and/or daddy are alums (called “legacy” affirmative action), I don’t have a problem about a few members of minority groups also getting a break. Morevoer, as long as celebrities can go Ivy, because they are celebrities, and wealthy families can make substantial contributions to an elite college’s endowment, inevitably leading to their underachieving brat’s admission, I don’t have a problem with a few minorities getting a break. If you don’t believe me on this last one, read Daniel Golden’s “The Price of Admission: How America’s Ruling Class Buys Its Way into Elite Colleges–and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates”</p>

90

<p>while college may play a big factor in your income, if you were smart enough…you would not need college to start a successful business. Just look at the many college drop-outs who struck it rich. I know a guy who went to an okay university and he makes 1 million a year.</p>

91

<p>College really does not matter much, but grad school certainly does, particularly in business and law, two of the three most highly paid fields. It matters where you went.</p>

92

<p>You embed quotes like this:

[quote]
"stuff to bequoted [ “/” quote] except remove the “” in the second quote box. It really makes it diffuclt to read your posts without it ,so than ks. Again I’ll ignore typos and the prose own’t be pretty.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>If anything that link was in support of genetics being the defining factor. I also stated that for IQ, genetics account for about 75% of an individual’s general intelligence (from the “Minnesota Twins study of Twins reared apart”). Your link actually somewhat agrees with that:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I think their value is a little high because there are some hidden variables but it’s unimportant for me to discuss them. Also, regression to the mean is important as mentioned in your article.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>No IQ is usually only impacted through nutrition and a very very small amount by some other factors like the ones you discuss. Academic performance is surely affected by culture though, so I’m not denying that. bUt what you must understand about culture and genetics is that they play off one another. For example, a family of short,unathletic people aren’t going to encourage their chidlren to try out for the football team. Jews and Asians encourage education simply because they excel at it. Blacks encourage athletics because they excel at that.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>That was my quote above and here’s the important implication which you miss. I don’t care how much you encourage education, a Nobel Prize can only be won by a genius individual. The fact that Jews constitute such a huge portion of Nobel prizes winners speaks to their average mean being much higher than other ethnicities. All populations have intelligence as a Bell Curve, but not all have the same mean (as evidenced by my link). If an ethnicity’s mean is very high (like the Jews), the right tail of that population’s normal distribution will be much higher. Thus, there will be much greater numbers of people at that genuis level where Nobel Prize winners come from. Nobel Prize winners speaks to not just academic acheivement, but innate genuis that culture can’t make up for.</p>

<p>The translation of the Bell Curve is the same reason why almost 100% of the greatest basketball players are of West African descent.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I consulted literature on this and you’re exactly right. Veyr low African IQ’s (relative to black americans) is mostly due to malnurtition. So one can assume that given the proper nurtition to adequately develop their brains, the average African IQ’s would be raised substantiallu (probably on par with blacks in america). </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>All your analysis about the dichomotmy between Ash Jews and Seph Jews is erroneous because you miss one key piint. Biologists consider Seph Jews and Ash Jews to be two completely different ethnicities. That’s why Sephs look Arab or Midle Eastern and that’s why Ash look more European. In fact, in Israel, there’s much conflict between the two groups. So they have different genetics and my analysis is apt.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yet even through civil rights, affirmative action, and the creation of a sizable black middle classs, the black-white disparity has stayed almost entitely constant at 15 IQ points or 1 SD. Here’s a link abut it: It’s a really long article and I’m only provided the link to show I’m not making this quote up:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>[A</a> Tail of the Bell Curve: The Politics of Mental Retardation](<a href=“http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/■■■■■■.htm]A”>A Tail of the Bell Curve: The Politics of Mental Retardation)</p>

<p>And finally you keep ignoring the culture of poor whites. Black urban culture is an outgrowth of poor white Southern culture (the grammar, religious fervor, disdain for education and social mobility, etc. ) Thomas Sowell wrote a great book about it. So poor whites are the offspring of blue collar people, mill workers, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc. These people live in small hick towns (or enclaves of other blue collar workers) where they have horrible educational systems (or in largely black neighborhoods in inner cities and attend all-black schools like Eminem). They have no role models and education is not valued. Yet, they have higher acheivement that middle and upper class blacks who surely must have a better environment. You claim maybe even these black families don’t value education (which I find hard ot believe that white-collar workers don’t encourage academic acheivement), yet surely the poor whites have a much much worse environment and culture. So please how do you explain the disparity?!?!?!</p>

93

<p>Other people are welcome to join the debate, preferably on my side (smiley face)!</p>

94

<p>I’m not sure why this OP regarding AA has turned into a discussion about genetics and IQ. First, as far as the Sehpardic/Askenazi question goes, since when is intelligence measured in terms of fame? (From the post above “in fact, almost every famous Jewish scientist or intellectual is Ashkenazi.”) I cannot tell you if this is true or not. I have no idea which famous people are what. I will tell you that a quick Google search turned up 4 Sephardic Nobel prize winners between the years of 1980 and 1997. So with inferior genetics or IQ the Sephardic population is doing just fine. The statement that the conflicts among the Jewish groups is due to differing genetics is a bit of a stretch. You are however correct, there are definitely genetic differences that are apparent in both appearance and the genetic disease Tay Sachs. Dontno, you also say “Jews and Asians encourage education simply because they excel at it” Based only on life experience I will tell you that Jewish parents both Sephardic and Ashkenazi set education as a priority whether or not they excelled as students. Of course this is not all Jewiish parents but again life tells me this is a safe generalization.</p>

<p>But why is this important with regard to AA. If we take these studies and use them to define ourselves should those who did not win the genetic lottery just drop out of school and sign up for the GRE? Or should standards be dropped for those with lower test scores? It seems dangerous to take this science and use it to chart the courses of people’s lives. Then there still is the question of how reliable are these studies? Even if the tests are designed to take into account cultural differences does this account for differences among test takers? Some may feel like they are taking a test that will determine their entire future while other may be thinking about getting this paper finished so they can move on to whatever else is really important to them. All of that goes back to culture. </p>

<p>So with regard to AA and the OP he has a delemma. (Correct me if I got this wrong Dbate. )He has set education as a priority but because he is black he feels that people just see him as one who has not earned his level of achievement and worse may resent him for taking their spot to a school if they don’t get in. On the other hand he recognizes there are still many black kids who because of their situations still need the extra advantage. Unfortanately it is not possible to have it both ways. There are pluses and minuses to everything. If you are in a position to reap the benefits of the advantage, and if your neighbors see you as an equal, and you get in, and they don’t, they aren’t going to be happy about that. Since there are more and more people like you out there it seems the time has come for the system to change.</p>

<p>Sorry Dontno, this isn’t exactly on your side :)</p>

95

<p>

</p>

<p>I agree with your point, but you must’ve meant the GED, not the GRE. Really smart people take the GRE to get into grad school.</p>

96

<p>Dang, I thought that was wrong when I wrote it, yes I meant GED, perhaps I should blame the error on inferior genetics :)</p>

97

<p>

</p>

<p>That is pretty much the nail on the head. The system definitely should be changed. Mostly bc I think that it hurts Asians, I know so many who are not more intelligent that other ppl but just work hard. Like writing alot of notes and studying their butt off to get good grades, and I feel sorry for them bc if anything they have it worse than anyone else. But I still feel there should be an allotment for lower income blacks or hispanics or Asians or whites. But fortuantely in the coming few years if McCain wins (hopefully so) we’ll have another conservative Justice on the Court and it will end.</p>

98

<p>Dbate, if you think the system needs to be changed how exactly should it be changed? You feel sorry for Asians but then you still think there should be an allotment for lower income people. The way I see it, the only way to stop all the fuss over AA is either to eliminate it or keep it the way it is. Any tweaking will still keep things the same. You have to do one or the other. Cant have both. So either you discriminate or you don’t. </p>

<p>I’m curious though…if we eliminated AA, what would the response be? What is the argument for why we still have it? Someone please explain this to me…</p>

99

<p>hmm it was interesting to watch pages and pages of AA debate to unfold. </p>

<p>^TODAY, AA still exist because racial diversity, as a facet of general diversity, is considered valuable and a compelling societal interest by the majority of Americans, the supreme court, and 24 of the top 25 colleges in the nation. </p>

<p>Because all applicants admitted to colleges practicing AA are qualified, including the minority students, all notions of “more qualified” are irrelevant. The most qualified are those most fit to round out a schools student body. </p>

<p>Practically, urms, specifically African Americans, receive the largest increase in income from attending an elite school. This increase is even greater than the benefit to low-income students. </p>

<p>On the grounds of racial discrimination, yes, their is institutional bias against blacks and hispanics in the K-12 education system. This is no longer the rationale behind AA officially, but it does, in addition to a difference in culture inflicted by the institutional racism of society, explain why the achievement gap exists. An example of this bias is the increased filtering of minorities into lower track classes, when they could have benefitted from taking gifted/honors/AP classes. You can look up a study they performed that showed when African Americans were encouraged to attempt AP classes, they did better academically then those who were not. </p>

<p>It is important to note that race is not being used as a proxy for socioeconomic status, as the achievement gap supersedes economic brackets. In fact, Asians from the lowest income bracket score on average better on the SAT than African Americans from the highest income bracket. </p>

<p>The key difference between African Americans and other groups that have faced discrimination and succeeded such as Asians and Jews is the self selection of the latter pools. Asian and Jewish immigrant were, on average, among the most motivated, skillful, and accomplished in their home countries. Many Asian immigrants who work low-income jobs here were doctors in their home country. African Americans on the other hand…well, you know the history. In addition, African Americans had a culture forced upon them of racism and discrimination, the effects of which are still seen today. </p>

<p>Much of the changes have to occur internally within the black community, but society has a duty to facilitate those changes. Once again, this is no longer the rationale behind AA. </p>

<p>Finally, college is an opportunity, not a reward. There is no “second place” getting in over “first place”. A school builds a class based around its values, apply to schools that fit yours.</p>

100

<p>“Dbate, if you think the system needs to be changed how exactly should it be changed? You feel sorry for Asians but then you still think there should be an allotment for lower income people. The way I see it, the only way to stop all the fuss over AA is either to eliminate it or keep it the way it is. Any tweaking will still keep things the same. You have to do one or the other. Cant have both. So either you discriminate or you don’t.”</p>

<p>I know the question’s not directed towards me but here’s my $.02. I’m currently against the current AA system, but I believe at one point in this world it served a purpose. To give minorities a chance when they were obviously being discriminated against. Now, however, although racism still exists, it’s definitely not as bad as it was then, and is generally looked down upon by the American public(look what happened to George Allen). Nowadays the disparity comes more from one’s socioeconomic status. A lower income child, no matter what race will always face hardships that higher income children won’t have to deal with. So if AA changed to consider socieconomic status over race, I’d have no problem with it since that’s fair. People aren’t poor because they’re black, or rich because they’re white. They’re poor due to their economic situation. </p>

<p>Which is precisely the problem with AA now. AA somehow assumes that because I’m Asian I have more advantages than African Americans based soley on the fact that I’m asian. It’s no different from assuming some random black guy is a criminal. It’s the same type of stereotyping. I think we’ve advanced far enough as a civilization to eliminate the need to consider race. So in the end if we can change AA to combat the problem of the disparity between class, it’d be a lot better. Thus I don’t think it the concept of AA should completely disappear, just tweaked.</p>