The difference of high schools

Parents Forum
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<p>coureur, has anyone called or written to Yale to ask what's up with no kids ever having gotten in, when they have been admitted to Harvard, etc? Perhaps the description of the school that gets sent to colleges needs to be beefed up a bit, and perhaps someone needs to let Yale know where some of the kids from the school DO end up. </p>

<p>Regarding the "snooty feeder school," are there other factors, outside of the school itself, that could be an influence on the number of students accepted at HPYSM? Legacy parents, for example?</p>

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<p>I think the school does matter, but at the margins. A brilliant student at a mediocre school has a perfectly good shot at the most selective colleges. But a slightly flawed student at a mediocre school doesn't. When top colleges take a little risk, I think it's most often with students from really excellent high schools. So, sure, a great student at No Name High may get into Harvard or Yale (probably not both). But at Harvard-Westlake, or Thomas Jefferson, there may be 10 students in a class who get into both. The school doesn't make that much of a difference to the top kid, but it makes a lot of difference to the 10th kid.</p>

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<p>Owlice -I don't know whether anyone has ever called Yale or what. For our GCs the definition of Success is getting a kid into a UC, any UC. That's where they put their effort. They are spread so thin and so are overworked that I doubt they worry very much about why their vals can get into Harvard but not Yale. </p>

<p>And I'm sure that legacy can be part of the equation for some individual applicants, but then the kid and the HS are, as I said, also part of that same equation.</p>

<p>Look, my daughter got into Harvard, Stanford, and MIT from our mediocre HS. So I'd LOVE to be able to say it was all her - just solely due to her manifest wonderfulness. But, as much as I love and admire her, I have to admit that she might not have done so well with her same application if she had gone to an even lowlier high school. And there is such a school nearby. That school is even lower on the feeder school food chain than our school. Even their vals have a tough time getting into anything higher than Berkeley. </p>

<p>The high school matters. I'll agree that the kid is the main factor, but the school is still an important factor. And sometimes that factor that can tip an app one way or the other.</p>

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<p>yep Pizzagirl post #31!</p>

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<p>I'm not going to say that the high school you go to is everything, but it has to at least mean *something<a href="even%20if%20that's%20very%20miniscule">/i</a>. Just my $.02</p>

<p>Every year my city publishes the valedictorians (or equivalent) at each private and public school in the city. Of the publics, probably about 90%+ of them are going to LSU, UNO, Xavier, UL-Lafayette, etc. Or 'lesser' state schools if they were sports recruits outside of LSU. Of the privates that's probably somewhere around 50-60% (I could look this up if I really wanted to- I have a bunch of copies downstairs).
Regardless of how good of a student you are, chances are you won't even apply to top schools (even top 100) if your school doesn't have some history of pushing its students.</p>

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<p>Aha...but can you control for and eliminate from the equation, parent's education level and SES? Both of those are corelated to both quality of public education and access to private. Also I am wondering from whom does the pushing you mention come? the school? which, even if it is a public, has been actively or passively chosen by the parents. Or the parents who in the "best" public districts and the privates often have an enormous influence on the school? </p>

<p>Look, the OP was making a claim based upon a spurious conclusion based upon a statistically insignificant sample. My point and that of others is that even kids...like minefor example... who are cursed with being forced to attend a small rural public with limited course offerings, have the potential to ultimately achieve great success.</p>

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<p>Speaking from personal experience, (I went to the less academic high school in my city, many years ago) My parents were not college graduates and, even though I was in the honors program, the one guidance counselor at our school never asked me in to explain that I should be thinking of applying to college in my senior year. My parents didn't know what the procedure was, therefore, I graduated high school with a 3.5 GPA and no place to go. I ended up going to the local CC and transferring in to UCLA, but I found the whole experience less than satisfying, with 2 years here and 2 years there. Therefore, I was determined that my daughter go to an excellent private high school and have a quality 4 year college experience. Would she have been accepted into a top university if she had gone to the closest public? Maybe, but we gave her the choice and she strongly preferred the private. So I agree the child can make a difference, but part of the equation is the parents, the quality of college guidance, and the personality of the kid. What a waste, if a young person is brilliant but not assertive, and a poor high school experience means they are overlooked for higher educational opportunities.</p>

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<p>
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So I'd LOVE to be able to say it was all her - just solely due to her manifest wonderfulness.

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<p>It was all because of her manifest wonderfulness, the support of her parents, the interest others showed in her education. I just know it! :) She's got great parents and is a great kid.</p>

<p>
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Even their vals have a tough time getting into anything higher than Berkeley.

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<p>Berkeley, number 21 on "the list" and the top public on it. Poor kids, doomed to such a horrid college education!</p>

<p>
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I'm not going to say that the high school you go to is everything, but it has to at least mean something (even if that's very miniscule).

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<p>Sure, I'll agree with this. Of course we want our kids to go to a high school with good academics, with other kids who are smart and who will challenge themselves and who will look to go to colleges that will challenge them academically, round them out, provide them with opportunities for great experiences. It's lovely if the high school has experience in teaching kids who have the capability to go to excellent colleges, whether those colleges are "name brand" or not, and does what can help a kid get there -- offer AP courses, good advising, etc.</p>

<p>But it's not entirely, or even mainly, the high school, as the OP says. He wants name brand, so he sends his kid to a high school that he thinks will give his daughter a boost in getting to a name brand school. He is surely not the only parent of a student in that school who sent his kid to that school for that reason! And yet, he totally discounts 1.) the student; 2.) his and his wife's parenting; 3.) his and his wife's educational background; 4.) SES... the list goes on. </p>

<p>But hey, if he wants to give all the credit to his D's success with college admissions to the high school, I'm perfectly willing to agree with him that he and his wife and his daughter and educational background and SES, etc., had absolutely nothing to do with it!</p>

<p>That strikes me as a disservice to his daughter, but if HE'S okay with that, well, okay!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Speaking from personal experience, (I went to the less academic high school in my city, many years ago) My parents were not college graduates and, even though I was in the honors program, the one guidance counselor at our school never asked me in to explain that I should be thinking of applying to college in my senior year.

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<p>Speaking from personal experience, I went to a large, public high school in the second worst school district in the state. My mother was a college grad, my grandfather was a college grad, my friends' parents were college grads.... I knew I was going to go to college. My friends knew they were going to college. That was the expectation. NOT applying to college wasn't even considered, and guidance counselors were definitely NOT the ones who pointed us all to college, and for the kids who went to top universities (and oh, yes, even my high school sent some kids off to the Ivy League and other top schools), they didn't get there because of the school.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So I agree the child can make a difference, but part of the equation is the parents, the quality of college guidance, and the personality of the kid.

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<p>Yes, the child can certainly "make a difference"!!! And I agree -- part of the equation is the parents, the quality of college guidance (which can come from parents, peers, books, CC, etc. -- doesn't have to come from the school), and the personality of the kid.</p>

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<p>Owlice said:

[quote]
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but not everyone wants to attend a top 20 school. Some students, even fabulous students who are every bit as good as kids who get into the top 20 schools, don't apply to them.

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<p>To which oldfort replied:

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Hard to believe, or CC wouldn't be so active.

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<p>What's so hard to believe about that, oldfort? That's exactly the situation I live in. Two towns, one is more affluent than the other, but both are upper middle class. High School A -- lots of parents went to elite schools themselves and even if they didn't, the radar is high, so kids are proactively raised to think they'll go other than our state flagship. High School B (ours) -- the parents who are successful economically took a different path (local school, started a local business and did very well, etc.) and the top schools just aren't on their radar screen, parents couldn't name Ivies if you put guns to their heads, and because of how they got their own money, they tend to think "state schools got me to where I am, don't see the point of spending money beyond our state school." And I have a very good state flagship, so I do see their point (though I don't agree with it personally). These are two different cultural mindsets, but they don't affect the quality of the education -- both schools are very good. At our school? No, the top kids aren't looking to go to top 20 schools for the most part. Just not on their radar screen. I think it's a *shame, because some of these kids could do so, but that's another story. They're not, their parents aren't proactively thinking about "interesting" options outside the state, and I don't know why that surprises you. </p>

<p>You said you're an immigrant, and so it's natural that you think that college choice determines ultimate success. Well, a lot of people get quite well-to-do in this country through other types of success -- start a construction company, own a restaurant that ultimately has several locations, work in a family business, be people-smart and great in sales -- and they don't think that to walk a good path in life, you have to go to the top-20-become-an-engineer-MBA-lawyer-doctor route. Many paths in this world.</p>

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<p>Well said, Owlice and Pizzagirl. </p>

<p>And oldfort, I don't believe that most people on CC are just looking to get their kids into the top 20 schools - I think most parents here want their kids to wind up at the schools that are right for them and that they are using CC as another resource to help them achieve that goal.</p>

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<p>Actually I came here with a bit of top 20 mentality myself (being, um, a top 20 grad) and thanks to many wonderful posters at CC, I now have a much more holistic view of the whole thing, a newfound awareness of some LAC's I might not have considered, a newfound appreciation of the fit issue, a newfound appreciation of how good my state flagship really is, and a newfound distaste for the word "prestige" and any screen name which screams "Ivy or bust", LOL.</p>

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<p>What exactly is being meant by "high school" in this context? Far too many things.
1. the high school itself--administrators, teachers, Gcs.
2. the high school curriculum: what kind of courses are being offered (APs? not APs?)
3. the high school culture: are students mostly interested in the local flagship university or are some interested in top private schools (both unis and LACs)?
4. the student body: what is their socio-economic backgrounds? How much post hs education do their parents have?
5. connections with top schools: is the high school known to some top schools but not others? Do some GCs have special connections to adcoms at some schools?</p>

<p>Way back when we were looking at colleges for S1, his GC told us that our hs had a good track record sending students to HY, to Brown, Wesleyan, but not to P, Swarthmore or Emory (one student with perfect SAT and SATII scores got turned down by Emory). Why should students make it into some of these colleges or not others with the exact same profiles may well be due to unfamiliarity.<br>
Our hs is used to steering students to many different colleges as well as to our state uni; but throughout the country, that is not necessarily the case.<br>
From CC, it is clear that many GCs do not serve well students who are interested in attending colleges other than their own state university. This has little to do with the actual quality of education a student receives.</p>

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<p>I felt that my D's acceptance to very selective program (though at in-state college) had to do with her school (Small, Private) being very well known in our state. When there are so many applicants to one spot, everything counts. However, she did not get into every program that she applied. I am talking about programs that have hundreds of highly eligible applicants to about 20 spots.</p>

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<p>We all have different aspirations for our kids, and therefore guide our kids toward certain path. I believe high school makes a difference because I made the choice of having my kids go to a top private school for 13 years (the school places over 35% to top 20s). I personally experienced the work of good school in getting their kids into college of their choice.</p>

<p>I think people on this board are too quick to jump on people that want their kids to go to top schools. They assume it's all related to money, or "PW." I would consider the PW part, but it is more related to trying to be best you could be, not necessary relative to other people.</p>

<p>Many years ago I started at a top iBank, then went on to work at some second rate iBanks. The top firm was top because it was able to recruit the top talent and had much higher expectations of its employees. It pushed me to my limit, but it also gave me an amazing training. Do I think I could be where I am without working at the original firm? Maybe, but it may have taken me longer to learn all of those skills. Yes, it was also good for me to tell people that I worked at XXX.</p>

<p>I think it is also the case with what schools you go to. Fit is often mentioned here, but I think it is really a hit or miss. I am not disputing with someone wanting a large school vs small, urban vs rural, or LAC vs university. But within those criterias, if my kid could get into a better school (Colgate vs Williams) I would encourage my kid to go to a better school. It would be hard for me to believe anyone couldn't find "fit" if it's a choice between similar schools.</p>

<p>Just like the parents on the board like to say "I just want my kid to be happy, and it really doesn't matter where my kid goes to school," I also don't have a problem in saying, "I want my kid to be the best she could be, and if it means to work a bit harder or to adjust to certain environment, so be it." When we are paying $50,000, it is also important to get the most out of a school - higher ranking schools often do have better facilities and opportunities.</p>

<p>I wouldn't be so fast to say "most parents..." I think most parents on the board try to be very politically correct. If they have contrary view, they would often not express it. I am just a bit more frank than others.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
We all have different aspirations for our kids, and therefore guide our kids toward certain path. I believe high school makes a difference because I made the choice of having my kids go to a top private school for 13 years (the school places over 35% to top 20s).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Emphasis mine.</p>

<p>oldfort, my question: If your kid wanted Colgate over Williams (and was accepted by both), would you insist your kid go to Williams?</p>

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<p>And standing ovations for the posts by historymom, Pizzagirl, LIMOMOF2, and marite!</p>

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<p>But oldfort, there isn't room at these top schools for everybody and basically you are saying only kids who go there become "the best they can be."<br>
Why can't a kid who goes to a (gasp!) 30-100 ranked school or to a regional-best master's university or even to a community college and then to a local school become "the best they can be"?<br>
Pizzagirl -- my trajectory on CC was similar to yours.
DadII -- you continue to start the most, um, "lively" threads!!</p>

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<p>Don't we all just want to feel validated? </p>

<p>Oldfort wants to feel the money spent on private school was well-spent. Others, whose kids went to a less-than-stellar public high school, want to feel like that was the right choice and their kids succeeded despite various disadvantages.</p>

<p>Oldfort, you write: "I think most parents on the board try to be very politically correct. If they have contrary view, they would often not express it. I am just a bit more frank than others." Maybe some, but I don't think of myself as politically correct; I just don't see the point in trying to talk others out of their beliefs. That's why you won't often find me deep into a back-and-forth on here.</p>

<p>Have a great day, all! :)</p>

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<p>Dad II - Correlation does not equal causation.</p>

<p>Family Income is the determining factor, not which high school a child attends. Both in acceptance and attendance. </p>

<p>Those of you who think that attending a CC or a "local college" will lead to a life of unemployment and homelessness, I suggest you trot on down to your local CC and ask the folks there where their students end up.</p>

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<p>I think I have a pretty good perspective on this question having moved our kids to a private high school but keeping close relationships with their old friends (most extremely bright and hard working) in our public system. I trust my D1 who just graduated from her private hs and will attend an Ivy this fall. She says her hs made a huge difference in her education and therefore also in her acceptances. She compared notes with her old friends as they were all going through AP Chem, AP physics, etc. and her old very smart friends in the public system clearly did not cover as much material or as in depth as my D did in her private hs. The AP scores and SAT subject scores indicated this very clearly. Her old extremely smart friends usually scored in the 600 range on the subject tests and ended up with 3s and sometimes 4s. At her hs, the average was in the 700s and a 4 on an AP was considered pretty bad.</p>

<p>When D interviewed for colleges, she often was told by her interviewers that her hs has a reputation for an extremely rigorous curriculum with a very tough grading system. She was told that selective schools are very comfortable with graduates of her HS. They know they write well, have excellent study skills and have an extremely strong education under the belt. Our public hs is just not like that at all.</p>

<p>Do I think this contrast holds across all public vs. private schools? Heck no! There are superb public schools that put many private schools in the shadow. But Dad II is asking if the high school makes a difference. And I wholeheartedly agree with him that it does.</p>

<p>Selective schools are more comfortable accepting students from highly competitive academically rigorous high schools. They know the student will be able to handle a competitive college scene. No matter how high the SAT reasoning test or GPA at a hs where it doesn't take much to pull a 4.0, it is really tough to tell if the student will be able to swim in a highly competitive environment.</p>

<p>Right now my D2 is about to start hs and I often think about pulling her back to our public system where a high gpa would be far easier for her to pull off and she will have a much better chance of standing out. We are not going to do that, though. In the end, I think kids are best prepared by facing the toughest possible competition. Owlice, is right - acceptance at a top school should not be the ultimate objective. But becoming as well educated as possible, developing the highest possible critical thinking skills and learning to deal effectively with tremendous challenge is invaluable in helping kids achieve their dreams.</p>

<p>p.s.</p>

<p>D's old friends in the public hs are going exclusively to in-state public universities. They applied to Ivies and top 20s and they were all (and I mean ALL) waitlisted and rejected. This included NMSFs and Valedictorians. The public hs has 700 in a graduating class - they are sending none to a top 20 school. And believe me, many of those kids aspired to top schools and their parents were ready and willing to pay for the opportunity. Not only do I think they were hurt by their curriculum, I also think these kids got a falsely positive sense of their chances in college admissions by spending four years in an environment where the faculty and other students thought they were brilliant.</p>