The downside of attending a top HS

Parents Forum
41

<p>Weenie:</p>

<p>The list is a bit skewed. TJHS and Stuy are bound to send more students to MIT than to some other top schools. TJHS, being a public magnet, also has a high proportion of students of more limited means than say, Exeter or Andover, so they are more likely to go to UVA. Exeter and Andover have traditionally been feeder schools for Harvard and Yale (I forget which is which).</p>

<p>I'd be curious to get info on Lexington, MA, Newton North and Newton South and Brookline High as well as Scarsdale High. These are all well-known suburban schools.</p>

42

<p>The title of this thread reminds me of the old commercial that began something like: "Please don't hate me because I'm beautiful." Please. If the one thing wrong with being able to choose a private high school education is that it didn't come with a gift-wrapped Harvard acceptance, I really can't feel sorry for the parents/students that feel they were duped. This argument gets replayed over and over (and I'm sure Jay Matthews does benefit from stirring the pot occasionally) and the only thing we know for certain is that acceptance to HYPSM is difficult. In our public high school, no one below the rank of 20 has EVER gotten into that group (out of a senior class of over 300) and half the time our valedictorian is shut out of that group. We will never know how "Student A" would do coming from a private vs. a public because they are either one or the other. People can choose to 'blame' their college denials on the fact they had an incredible high school experience at an elite private if it makes them feel better, just as they can choose to be disappointed that they were 'only' accepted to Dartmouth. Don't expect universal sympathy. Anyone who attends a private high school and later regrets it because they feel it diminished their chances in the college sweepstakes hasn't educated themselves about the present state of college admissions. I would certainly get all the information I could before investing $140,000 (roughly the current cost of 4 years at Exeter/Andover). Ultimately, wouldn't you choose a private high school for the opportunities it presents NOW rather than expecting it to maybe pay some dividend in the future?</p>

43

<p>Stuyvesant has 800 graduates a year. Thomas Jefferson has 450. The SAT averages at both schools are over 1400 (old scale). It is not unreasonable, in my opinion, to say that at least half of the graduates of these schools should be considered competitive candidates for any college in the country. </p>

<p>Yet what this list tells us is that neither of these spectacular schools sent 12 kids to Harvard, Penn, or Stanford, and that TJ didn't even send 12 kids to Cornell. What I ask is why not? There were surely enough kids who were qualified.</p>

<p>I would have expected Stuyvesant to qualify as a "feeder" school for all 14 of the colleges on the list, not just 6. TJ is in a slightly different situation because it's smaller and it's in Virginia, meaning that its graduates can pay in-state prices at one of the two best state schools in the country -- an offer that's hard to refuse (one quarter of the graduates of TJ go to UVa). But I would still have expected TJ to be a feeder for more than 2 of the 14 schools.</p>

44

<p>lefthand, That's exactly my point - I am choosing the best HS experience for my S, even though I assume that this will reduce his chances of admission to an elite college, and I know that it will reduce the probability that we'll be able to pay for one. Believe me, hopes of admission for my S to brand-name colleges are NOT driving any decisions I make. The reason that I thought about the tradeoff at all is that in our hyper-competitive school district, the first comment that most people will make when they hear that you are considering an independent HS is that you must be trying to ensure that your child gets into an Ivy League school. </p>

<p>A major factor in my son's dissatisfaction with his current school placement is the prevailing culture of focusing on grades, rather than learning. He complains about the constant chorus: "Is this going to be on the test?" You would be shocked at the things some students do to gain a small fraction of a point. The small subset of kids who make it their mission in life to disrupt classes and annoy teachers is a much smaller factor. To this we add teachers (some) who are intent on getting through a certain amount of material and making sure that everyone in the deliberately heterogeneous (by ability) class understands it, and who claim that there is no time in class for anything else. I have been in more than one meeting with principals and teachers where learning in our district is described in terms that bring to mind force-feeding.</p>

45

<p>Marian:</p>

<p>I suspect TJ is a feeder for MIT. I attended the Harvard-MIT Math Tournament one year. TJ fielded more than one tram. It was so used to dominating HMMT that one it got trounced by a team from Florida a cheer went up among the contestants :(. As I suggested, many of the top students choose to go to UVA. </p>

<p>Stuy's history is a bit more complicated. It is said that the previous dean at Princeton discriminated against Stuy. The new one made a point of visiting (the previous one avoided doing so) and encouraging students to apply. Stuy students face some obstacles: they are from an area which is already over-represented among the top schools; their academic focus is very similar; ethnically, they are not very diverse; because Stuy is urban, the students' ECs are also likely to be fairly similar (music, academic, less emphasis on sports).</p>

46

<p>Attached a partial listing of the where 372 students (which is not even half of the seniors) the class of 06 at Stuyvesant is going in the fall. </p>

<p><a href="http://stuycom.net/user/senioritis.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://stuycom.net/user/senioritis.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<h1>of students going to:</h1>

<p>4-Barnard, 4- Brown, 1 Caltech, 11- Columbia, 4- Cooper Union,
30- Cornell, 14 Darmouth, 6- Duke, 13-Harvard, 11-Hopkins, 9-MIT
27-NYU, 11- Princeton, 5- Stanford, 5- Penn, 3- Yale</p>

47

<p>Doesn't look too slighted...</p>

48

<p>Garland:</p>

<p>You are right. No need to feel sorry for Stuy students!</p>

49

<p>NYMom: We had 2 DDs in small private for the same reasons. Big, disruptive public HS vs (very) small private. (Neither was interested in the Ivies, but kids from both the public and private have been accepted) </p>

<p>Yes, lots of $$$. Worth it? You bet.</p>

<p>Did they receive the education we paid for? You bet.</p>

<p>Did they get into selective colleges? You bet.</p>

<p>Are they better people overall for it? You bet.</p>

50

<p>Our big comprehensive suburban high school in contrast has 2 or three students attending most of those schools. I think it's a bit of a tossup with say the top 10% of elite school being equivalent to the top 1% or so of big public high school. The problem is when you aren't quite in that top group of the elite school perhaps.</p>

<p>And as for diversity. Well our school is very diverse, economically and ethnically, but there is much less diversity in the crowd that is taking the honors and AP courses.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
And as for diversity. Well our school is very diverse, economically and ethnically, but there is much less diversity in the crowd that is taking the honors and AP courses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is true of our high school, too. But S kept friends from k-8 and maintained these friendships at lunchtime and in afterschool activities. Many of his close friends were not in any of his classes, and he did not know many of his classmates except by name, classes not being where one socialized. Although the ECs were academic, they were open to all, and students of various abilities were encouraged to join and to compete.</p>

52

<p>
[quote]
I think it's a bit of a tossup with say the top 10% of elite school being equivalent to the top 1% or so of big public high school

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Achieving that "top 1%" at a public HS seems to require strategic planning rather than simply brilliance and hard work. The difference between a 4.5 and a 4.8 can result from choosing to sing in madrigals rather than take yet another 0 period science. In the best independent HSs, which don't rank, this won't happen so their students have more flexibility in following their interests and talents.</p>

53

<p>^all the top students in my kids' big suburban hs did band, chorus, orchestra, or more than one of them. I never heard of someone having to make a choice like that to preserve a rank--maybe it's just not the kind of place where people think like that.</p>

<p>Also, anyone who's skipping challenging science, math, etc classes is going to have their application questioned, even anointed prep school students.</p>

54

<p>It is a little disconcerting to see that senioritis list of kids and the great schools they plan to attend --- next to pictures and postings with the most extreme foul language.</p>

55

<p>I think Marite had it right in post #38. If all you are thinking about is eventual college admissions (which shouldn't be the case), and you know your child is a superstar, there's no particular reason to send him or her to a fancy private school vs. a good public school. But if maybe, just maybe your child will be a little below superstar status, or may have a bump in the high school road at some point, the private school can be a very real safety net in terms of having a good college outcome. People think about that, of course, but they also think about 50 other things, some of which are much more important, in choosing schools for their kids.</p>

<p>For my daughter, public vs. private made no difference whatsoever, even though she wasn't a "perfect" candidate. I am convinced that she would have gone to the same college if she had stayed at her old school -- not least because it's probably where they would have slotted her. I suspect next spring I will say the same thing about my son. He is much more a star now than he ever was at the private school, but a lot of that is just a couple years of growth and maturity; he had already started his move up the slippery pole before he left.</p>

<p>Re the feeder school list: It can't be complete, because my kids' school has not sent fewer than 20 students to Penn in any year in the last decade -- sometimes it's been as high as 30. I believe it's the single biggest feeder for Penn, although Lower Merion could be at that level, too. Certainly LM sends at least 12 kids a year to Penn (and I would be surprised if there aren't several schools in the area at that level). Also, how is it possible that Stuy doesn't have 9 kids a year go to MIT?</p>

56

<p>* Well our school is very diverse, economically and ethnically, but there is much less diversity in the crowd that is taking the honors and AP courses.</p>

<p>That is true of our high school, too. But S kept friends from k-8 and maintained these friendships at lunchtime and in afterschool activities.*</p>

<p>My younger daughter attends a school that has AP classes open to all who want to attempt them
While you do have to have a recommendation from a teacher, it isn't the all or nothing approach that they have in some city high schools.
She has a group of ( mostly) middle to upper class friends who have been in the cities top academic prgrams for years and are taking the most rigourous schedule.( less racially diverse)
She also has friends who aren't taking any AP classes, that she knows through her involvement on sports teams.( very diverse)
And she also has friends who are both in her remedial class, as well as in her AP classes and take summer school classes together so they can get caught up.(very diverse- she was the only caucasian girl in her class)</p>

57

<p>Re: Stuy and MIT. The year I attended HMMT, I was surprised that Stuy did not participate. AAST sent a whole busload, the winning team was from FLA. But no Stuy.</p>

58

<p>JHS : You are lucky to have a public magnet school available to you. We don't have them in my neck of the woods.</p>

<p>garland: I like your comments about having to share the world with all types of people. Very true. But sharing a high level math or science class with an unmotivated kid who just wants a diploma rather than a GED will slow things down to a snail's pace. Even the honors program at our public middle school was too slow. My d would never have known what she was capable of if her Catholic h.s. didn't push her like they have. I guess it all depends on what your public offers. Ours is not impressive.</p>

<p>diversity: d's Catholic h.s. is much more diverse than our town public. I couldn't give a hoot about this, truthfully. It draws girls from over 80 towns.</p>

59

<p>Doesn't even the fact that there exist "feeder" schools to the Ivies dispute Matthews' premise?</p>

60

<p>Garland wrote:

[quote]
Proud parent of two grads of Bumblewood High checking in!
.........</p>

<p>I think that Bumblewood High did okay for them, both in where they ended up in college, and how qualified they were to be there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I can relate to this. My kids also both went to Bumblewood High and while I'll be the first to say it wasn't the greatest school of all, they both ended up at one of their most preferred schools on their list and both appear to be as qualified and as prepared to the next kid. Both have had some times already in college classes where they were singled out in the entire class as being exemplarary...this at Brown and NYU/Tisch (in an an academic class at NYU), though so many of their classmates attending private high schools. </p>

<p>Garland also wrote regarding the list of Stuy class of ‘06’s colleges:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Doesn't look too slighted...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL. I agree. I shed no tears for them.</p>

<p>Garland wrote in another post:

[quote]
all the top students in my kids' big suburban hs did band, chorus, orchestra, or more than one of them. I never heard of someone having to make a choice like that to preserve a rank--maybe it's just not the kind of place where people think like that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is exactly how it is in our HS as well. However, I have read here about other schools where rankings are done a certain way and some strategizing goes on where kids do not take arts courses and the like but that is not the system here and it has no relation to rankings and students take whatever they wish. The top students do tend to be involved in the music dept. in fact. The ranking systems in some schools that foster that kind of choice are truly skewed.</p>

<p>Epiphany wrote:

[quote]
I do not believe in choosing a h.s. "because" of expected or hoped-for college admissions outcome. The high school is only secondarily the "applicant."

[/quote]

and Lefthandofdog wrote:

[quote]
Ultimately, wouldn't you choose a private high school for the opportunities it presents NOW rather than expecting it to maybe pay some dividend in the future?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I couldn't agree more. I am not knocking those who have chosen private schools for their children. My hope would be that these schools were chosen for the educational experience and fit for that kid and no other reason. We don't have private schools around here (except the local ski academy) but people here have sent their kids away to prep boarding schools and I feel that SOME of these folks have done so with the goal in mind of that it will get their kid into a better college than coming from our unknown rural public. I haven't seen much difference. These strong students likely could have ended up at the same college regardless. A local boy who went away to boarding school is going to Brown this year, just like my D who stayed at the unknown public. </p>

<p>LefthandofDog wrote:

[quote]
The title of this thread reminds me of the old commercial that began something like: "Please don't hate me because I'm beautiful." Please.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is pretty funny....but oh, so true!</p>