<p>giddey_up, that is what you can expect from a website run by high-schoolers!</p>
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all the top students in my kids' big suburban hs did band, chorus, orchestra, or more than one of them. I never heard of someone having to make a choice like that to preserve a rank--maybe it's just not the kind of place where people think like that.
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<p>garland, at your HS were band, chorus, etc., extracurriculars or scheduled as part of the regular school day? At ours, madrigals (elite, award-winning, internationally traveling a cappella singing group) takes up two periods out of seven. That only leaves 5 periods, so it has to be a choice (AP English, AP Calc, AP Gov't, AP Chem, AP Physics, and ...?). An A in madrigals is a 4.0 (no weighting), an A in an honors academic course is a 5. A student aiming at val (or top 1%) needs all A's in all honors classes. Consequently, a student aspiring to the top 1% can't sing.</p>
<p>BTW, I asked a Wellesley adcom and she advised to do madrigals; alas, then they turned D down. Sigh.</p>
<p>Please do not go to a prep school or college for bookish knowledge. It is a side benefit. Heck there is no need for even college to earn money.</p>
<p>Attend prep school / Ivy colleges for connections, personality development, taking chances and meeting person who has passion to do different things. To whom you can debate late at night at three AM and discuss national/international policies etc. </p>
<p>That is what a college or high school is worth. Outside the classroom where the real difference is. Ivy education is worthless without scoical development and outside the classroom intellectual development.</p>
<p>stockmarket, absolutely agreed. I wish I'd said that. I have two incredibly capable, poised, confident, interesting sons that credit their prep schools for much of who they are (they credit mom & dad for core decency).</p>
<p>celloguy--they are classes at our school, plus they have extracurricular components.</p>
<p>Soozie--I have often felt that our kids had very similar experiences, even though yours were in rural VT and our in urban-suburban NJ.</p>
<p>Our state only funds 5 credits a year( and requires 19 credits to graduate)- and has graduation requirements which while I can see their reasoning, make it diffcult for top students in districts which do not support addtional coursework to compete.
The city district generally has 6 classes for high school students, but it isn't always a priority and money has to be cut someplace to pay for it.</p>
<p>No language requirement for example, so that has to take the place of an elective</p>
<p>Minimal math requirement-only 2 years are required by state and district- no level specified
Science 2 years required
Social studies 3 years
Language arts 3 years
Occupational Education our district requires 1 & 1/2 years of.</p>
<p>Our district used to make allowances for music- and allowed some students if they had their principal agree- to count their music instruction for OCEd- as some of you know- my daughters high school has a music program that is widely known as one of the top in the country ( with Clarence Acox heading jazz band & Marcus Tsutakawa heading orchestra)</p>
<p>However, despite the music teachers attempts to be certified as a "vocational" teacher, so their students can continue to get credit- (the state/district dont' remember which) has determined that "music" is not a occupation and so they can't be certified.
I think some schools may have music as a zero period ( before school) but since 1st period is at 7:40, you have to be pretty dedicated to come in earlier! for both the students and teachers.</p>
<p>But they still have to get the credit to graduate.
Luckily for my daughter- Photography, which she loves, can count for either arts or occupational education.
Arts 1 credit is required to graduate</p>
<p>PE & Health 2 years are required to graduate
However, you can get a waiver if you are on a school sports team- which my daughter has done- each season you compete, is .5 a credit
She has competed each year- so that will free up 3 semesters for her to take another academic class, that she otherwise wouldn't have room for.
( this is up to school, not all schools allow waivers)
We are also probably going to have her take health online- which they allow- because with her schedule of</p>
<p>English-History- Spanish-Chemistry-Math & an OCed or Arts class- that doesn't leave anymore room & that is with her doing sports after school as well.
If you don't have parents who know about the waiver process & have counselors that are making sure you use your elective slots for languages, you are going to be in a bind if you hit senior or even junior year and decide you want to attend college- even our state college requires 2 or 3 years of a language to apply.</p>
<p>Other districts may offer more courses and have higher requirements for graduation- I believe Bellevue just across the lake has 7 periods a day. THis gives kids more opportunity to take a full schedule.</p>
<p>My older daughter in private school for example- didn't have an occupational ed requirement at all for graduation.
She was able to take English/Math/History/Science/ForeignLang- for 4 years as well as having 2 credits each year for Arts classes.
They didn't have AP classes so students weren't penalized for not taking them.
However, they also didn't have grades that reflected the rigor of the courses, so schools that screened by GPA, may have missed out on some students who could have been an asset to their community.</p>
<p>( of course her college grades- didnt' reflect the comparative rigor either, so for those grad schools, that require a certain GPA to apply- students are SOL)</p>
<p>emerald, thanks for taking time to post the details; I hope that helps explain part of the problem for public school kids competing with the better privates. D started at a good prep but was too homesick (I mean, really seriously health-threateningly homesick) and had to come home. Her three years at the public were hell for her, but still better than trying to survive dorm/commons life away from home. So she is acutely aware of the differences. I'm a little worried about her going away to college (so is she), because of her history, but of course at 18 is more independent than at 14. But as you know, it's a great college.</p>
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they are classes at our school, plus they have extracurricular components
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so, that being the case, how does a student hope to achieve val status while playing in orchestra or whatever? Maybe your school doesn't weight GPA? Or music is considered honors? Or ...?</p>
<p>In school systems like the one in our area, participating in band, orchestra or chorus (which are classes with unweighted letter grades) theoretically puts a kid at a disadvantage in terms of weighted GPA. There are only seven periods in a day. If a kid with six weighted classes and orchestra gets straight A's, that's a lower weighted average than the one obtained by a kid who takes seven weighted classes.</p>
<p>But on the other hand, taking seven weighted (honors or AP) classes is so difficult and demanding that the kid who tries it might not be able to get seven As. Also, for really talented musicians, signing up for the band, orchestra, or chorus class might provide a college admissions advantage because only kids in the class are eligible for prestigious honors groups such as All-State Orchestra. The prestige of making All-State and being able to put that on your college application could arguably outweigh the slight weighted GPA decrease that results from taking the orchestra class.</p>
<p>Celloguy, </p>
<p>At our high school band, jazz band, and chorus are part of the school day class schedule. There are afterschool groups such as select choir and so forth, in addition but anyone in the EC groups are ALSO in the classroom courses. Both of my kids were heavily involved in the music program. </p>
<p>My oldest daughter happened to be valedictorian (I am only mentioning this in the context of your questions in post #68.) </p>
<p>For starters, while my kids were attending the school, we had NO weighted grading system. So, what they took did not affect rank. It so happens that my D who was val (and frankly my D who was not val) took the hardest courses available at the school and then some. It also so happens that D1 felt that our school should have a weighted GPA for the purposes of rank for several reasons but one was that the current system did not encourage kids to challenge themselves with the more rigorous courses. In fact, the kids ranked second and third were not in the harder track classes and could conceivably be val, for example. She didn't care about being val herself and cared deeply about being in more challenging classes as she would be bored if not challenged. She happened to end up val though it is harder to be val there given the no weighting system. I won't get into all that now but will say that she worked for two years in researching and developing a weighted GPA policy for her HS and presented it to faculty and eventually to the School Board and they passed her policy and it went into affect after her time there. She did this to benefit other students who came after her. </p>
<p>However, even now with weighted grades, it doesn't affect students in our HS in the frankly, crazy way it does at your school. It is nuts to have a system whereby a kid cannot take performing arts because the GPA or rank would be affected. That system is not right. Here, a student could take the most challenging curriculum and still be in the music program. My D took the highest level classes offered in English, History, Science, Math, and Foreign Language. There was still time to be in the music program. In fact, the music program is comprised of most of our best academic students. The rank would not be affected even with a weighted system. Besides all that, there is NOT this strategizing and gaming going on in our noncompetive atmostphere HS like I read about in some high schools like yours. I think the ranking system at your school needs adjusting as to which courses are used for rank or whatever, because it shouldn't come down to taking a hard academic subject over music for ranking reasons. Here, one can take ALL the hardest classes for their grade level and still be in the music program. None of this affects rank even with the new weighted grade system. Music isn't Honors, by the way.</p>
<p>soozie, how is that possible?</p>
<p>If kid #1 takes the highest level classes offered in English, History, Science, Math, and Foreign Language and takes Orchestra as an elective, wouldn't that kid have a lower weighted GPA than kid #2, who takes the same English, History, Science, Math, and Foreign Language classes but takes AP Psychology or a second honors-level foreign language or a second honors-level science class as an elective?</p>
<p>By the way, soozie, if you want to know what's nuts, I will tell you that kids in my area think about these things even though our high schools don't have class rank. The kids are worried primarily about minute differences in the weighted GPAs that appear on their transcripts.</p>
<p>I guess I don't even get what the SEVEN Honors or AP subjects are to take in one grade level year. I don't think that is even possible here. The top students, of which my kids were, take the hardest English, Math, Science, History and Foreign Language classes. Then there is stuff like Band, Chorus, Jazz Theory, Computers, Health, Gym, etc. that fills out the schedule. There are not MORE academic classes to really take in a given grade level, or at least not more of the more demanding sort, just maybe elective types.</p>
<p>Marian, yes, here you have to be in the Music program to audition for things like All States, which my kids were in as well. My kids did many performing arts things both during the school day and outside the school day (among other things) and I am sure this was a plus in their profile, along with their achievements in those areas.</p>
<p>Don't you think this discussion of electives is irrelevant? Colleges only count the 5 core disciplines when calculating GPA.
However, I suppose class rank depends only on how your school calculates GPA. That I think is the only impact. Other than class rank, electives & GPA are not relevant for college admissions.</p>
<p>Marian, I am sorry, we cross posted. For one thing, we hardly had any AP designated courses (just a couple like Calublus and Physics which my D was in) when my kids attended (just HONORS courses) but they have recently switched some of the Honors classes into AP designations. Also, my kids were not under the weighted system though their Honors classes now would count for weighted grades if they were there.Honors was the highest level track for almost every course...they took the highest level of any subject that was offered. We don't have AP Psych. Foreign Language also wasn't Honors or AP, so taking a second foreign language wouldn't affect it either. Seriously, my kids took the hardest track you could take and also accelerated beyond their grade level, also did indep. studies, and also long distance college level JHU courses. There were no additional Honors/AP classses they could have taken beyond that which they took in a given year. Taking five academic type subjects at the highest tracked possible really was the hardest curriculum. Besides, the "strategizing" over rank just doesn't take place here. Top students do indeed take band or chorus and jazz band, etc.</p>
<p>Our very large "average" public high school has eight periods in the day. A typical schedule is 6 courses plus gym plus lunch. However, students are permitted to take an extra (seventh) course instead of lunch and may eat their lunch during class if they do not have a scheduled lunch period. This extra (seventh) class is graded but does not count toward GPA or class rank. In this way, students may take part in vocal or instrumental groups (which are classes, not ECs) and still take a full academic load of AP and honors courses, and the "non-honors" music class does not negatively impact their GPA or class rank. Because of this scheduling provision, my daughter was able to take advanced art, instrumental music, and 5 academic courses during each year of high school. </p>
<p>For what it's worth, our large "average" public school only sends about half of its graduates to four year college, a large number go to community college, and a significant number enter the work force. However, the school offers numerous AP courses and extracurriculur opportunities for the relatively small percentage of students who are motivated to take advantage of them. Since each graduating class is between 700 and 800, this small percentage is still large enough to form a nice peer group of motivated students. </p>
<p>Although the guidance counselors are not very helpful in this regard, students from the top group in recent years have had good success in being admitted to many of the most selective universities and liberal arts colleges. It is possible that even more students from our high school would be admitted to these colleges, but, as has been discussed earlier in the thread, many choose to apply only to our well-regarded state university because of the lower cost.</p>
<p>Colleges may only count the five core disciplines, but how do they compare a kid who has six or seven classes per year in those disciplines with a kid who has only five? </p>
<p>In our school system, some kids are afraid to take only five academic classes because they fear that the guidance counselor won't check the "most rigorous program available" box on their college recommendation form if they do that. After all, in a school system where it's physically possible to take six or seven academic courses, can the guidance counselor honestly check that box for a kid who takes only five? My daughter has been willing to stay in the band primarily because she's IB, and by official school policy, anyone who is in a full IB diploma program is consider to be taking the "most rigorous program available" regardless of their course choices within the IB program. Her weighted GPA has suffered because of her band participation, but she will still get that "most rigorous" box checked on her recommendation.</p>
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Here, one can take ALL the hardest classes for their grade level and still be in the music program. None of this affects rank even with the new weighted grade system. Music isn't Honors, by the way
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<p>so it sounds like your school figures rank using only academic GPA (that's the only way your D could take music and rank #1). Ours is a weird hybrid, figuring weighted academic GPA for UC admission, but not for class rank/val status. </p>
<p>I apologize for sounding as if GPA trumps music/arts participation; of course that's warped. Still, I can't help feeling a little disappointed for D who thought she was doing everything right and still didn't get into her first-choice school. I feel guilty for not warning her that chances were slim no matter what she did. If she hadn't sung in madrigals she'd likely have made val. That might have made a difference in admissions, but she'd have lost out on a wonderful musical and social experience.</p>
<p>MotherofTwo....that is how it should be. Colleges are not looking for kids to take MORE academic subjects than the five core ones. They want students to take the most challenging courses than can and my kids sure did. My kids also accelerated beyond the norm for their grade, did inped. studies in math and French and long distance courses to go beyond the curriculum. My D who was val was DURING the school day ALSO in band, jazz band, jazz theory, four art courses, Web page design, health, gym, and an indep. study (one period per day in 11th) revolving around skill areas to do with pre-architecture (such as drafting, mechanical drawing and AutoCad). She didn't take all those every year but she did have band, jazz band and jazz theory every year. She now attends Brown and got into several very selective schools. I realize it is different everywhere but five academic core subjects in the hardest level available is pretty standard as an appropriate college prep curriculum for very selective colleges.</p>
<p>motheroftwo, all sounds perfect except for the part about singing with your mouth full :)</p>
<p>Celloguy, no that is not how rank is figured here. Again, while my kids attended, we had no weighted GPA or rank, though now do. But ALL grades in ALL courses go into rank. My kids's school report from the guidance counselor most definitely had "hardest curriculum...most demanding...taken" because indeed at OUR school, they took the HARDEST classes and MOST rigorous schedule of all and then some (both went beyond the HS curriculum, both also accelerated well beyond their grade level...in fact, one of my kids graduated a year early). The GC report for my oldest D included "best student I have ever seen in my 25 years at the school. " for example. So, there were not additional hard track classes to take in a given grade level year than they took at OUR school. </p>
<p>Even if they HAD been under a weighted system, their rank would have stayed the same (for oldest D who was val without the weighted grades) and for younger D, she'd have a higher rank than she did as she also took the hardest classes and some ranked above her surely did not. But nobody could have taken a more "weighted" courseload than my kids took in any given year, even if they had attended under the new weighted system that ironically my D was the one who behind having that put into place. There would not have been another HARD level class to take instead of Band or Chorus.</p>
<p>As well, let me say that both of my kids achieved very highly in music, among many other areas, and so I believe that some things like All States, Regionals, All State Scholarship winner, NFAA (national award) for Musical Theater, etc. all were considered good without a sixth or seventh academic class...which again, here could only have meant an elective, another language (not weighted) or something like that. As it were, my kids accelerated so much in foreign language that they completed the highest level course in their language available at our HS (French V) by 11th grade and so my older D did an indep. study French 6 in 12th grade and my younger one just graduated a year early. </p>
<p>Schools differ widely. I am just saying how it works at our HS and I KNOW it differs at schools like yours. Frankly, I can't imagine my kids not in the music program. Both play two instruments (one plays three) at a high level of achievement and one has been the state winner in classical voice and jazz vocals. One is even going to college at a very selective audition based BFA program in Musical Theater (goes to NYU/Tisch) and so NOT being in the music program at our HS would have been a dumb move. My kids both are heavily involved in the performing arts...also in dance and theater, besides instrumental music and voice/chorus. This was part of their HS curriculum as it should be, in my view. They never chose HS courses with rank in mind. They took the most challenging curriculum available and accelerated in addition to that because of their desire for challenge. It had nothing to do with GPA or rank. Frankly with the unweighted system they were under, their chances at a high rank were greater if they had taken the easy courses. But they'd never have considered that strategy because they crave challenge and they also crave music. In D1's case, even though she took the much harder road in her coursework under an unweighted system, she still was val but being val was NEVER her goal. Gaming and strategizing and competing against classmates is just not the "thing" in my neck of the woods, thankfully.</p>