The First Quest -- Mary Washington, JMU, VMI and Muhlenberg

Parents Forum
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<p>S is only a Sophomore, but he wanted to take a preliminary look at some of the schools on his list that are nearby, so we're heading out next week during Spring Break. Any feedback re what to look for, ask, etc. (particularly with respect to the above schools) would be greatly appreciated. And if anybody else has a particular question that they would like answered from one of these schools, just let me know and I'll try to find out -- with a caveat, the VMI trip will primarily be just a post tour so there will be limited opportunity to ask questions. VMI really doesn't gear up for prospectives until Junior year. </p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>lderochi - I've heard Mary Washington is something of a suitcase school - is that true or not? DD is done, but son is coming along and it is a school that might fit academically, if he decides to go that far away, right now he says he's staying close to home, but he's got some growing up to do.</p>

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<p>Try reading this thread for general visit suggestions and questions to ask:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=33248%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=33248&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>When I was at Mary Washington back in the Dark Ages it was not really a suitcase school. There were a lot of Virginia girls (girls back then), and some of them went home, but many did not. A lot of students actually were from NY, NJ, etc. and could not go home easily. We used to hang out with friends, go to the movies, or shop on the weekends. Finding boys to date was a preoccupation, since that involved traveling to neighboring schools or arranging for the boyfriend to visit. I am sure that kids today find more to do, since many of them have cars and get into Fredericksburg or DC. It is a nice time to visit--maybe some flowers will be blooming. It is a beautiful campus.</p>

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<p>Another note on Mary Washington: I had great professors there, and I found the work challenging and interesting. English, foreign languages, and science were pretty strong departments. I hope someone with more recent experience can update you on how things are now.</p>

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<p>pattykk -- I'm also an MWC alum (class of '72 - it was all girls when I started, turned coed when I was a junior). Were we there at the same time? </p>

<p>I agree completely with your assessment of the academics and the beautiful campus. The town is charming, as well, and it's close enough to DC and Richmond for those seeking the big city environment. If you have a car (or a friend with one), it's an hour drive.</p>

<p>As I recall, there were a considerable number of northern Virginia kids that went home on weekends but there was also a lot of activity on campus for the rest of us. </p>

<p>I am anxious to hear Iderochi's trip report. I, too, have a sophomore son who might enjoy it there. I just wish the ratio of males to females was less skewed.</p>

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<p>Pattykk and patsmom -- Thanks, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes. I have also heard the "suitcase school" rap in the past. Unfortunately, since we'll be visiting on a weekday, we won't be able to get a feel for the campus on weekends. I really hope my S likes it -- on paper at least it seems to be a good fit. But the M/F ratio is a concern and to tell you the truth even my S, who is far from a testosterone driven jock, has raised his eyebrows at the thought of attending a University named Mary Washington. LOL.</p>

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<p>My junior D and I will be visiting next Friday so I will let you know if I see many students carrying suitcases to their cars. She is also interested in JMU and we looked at Muhlenberg last fall--she liked it a lot but is concerned it might feel too small to her (smaller than her high school.) Please share your impressions too.</p>

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<p>Never been to Muhlenberg, so can't speak to that one. S has been accepted at Mary Washington and may be going there. We're part of that "No. Va" crowd, he wants to be close to home (not too close for us to pop in on him) but I do hope that means not come home on weekends. I've been told there is plenty there to do there on weekends, so we'll see. JMU is much bigger, different that UMW. The old part is rather nice, but I personally was turned off with the Interstate going through campus, since the new ISAT building/dorms are on the opposite side of I-81 than the old campus. A lot of students like it a lot though and a lot from around here go there. That was also the reason S. had no interest in it, didn't want (in his mind) a repeat of high school. If you're visiting VMI, you might as well duck next door and look around Washington & Lee. They are truly right next to each other. We never visited VMI, but did walk around W&L a year ago. It is a beautiful campus. Have fun!</p>

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<p>Thanks Choff -- S and I talked about visiting W&L, but to be honest I didn't really push it, and he never really looked into it. I have to admit that for whatever reason I just can't get into W&L -- and that may have affected S and his opinion (though VMI is his current favorite, and I still have no idea where that came from, I never even thought about it). I think I just have a visceral reaction about schools with a reputation for being heavily greek dominated. And having been born into the Southern blue collar proletariat, W&L's lingering rep as a wealthy southern prep haven rankles me. Oh well, I hope my biases don't unduly influence S. Maybe we'll just wander around W&L rather than go for a formal tour and info session. If he really likes it we can plan a visit next year when he's a junior.</p>

<p>On the JMU/UMW issue, I'm actually quite happy with the agenda for this abbreviated tour, since it will cover small, mid-size and large (but not huge) schools. If nothing else, it should help S get a better idea of what size school he'll feel more comfortable in. </p>

<p>I hadn't realized that JMU now extends across I-81, that's good to know.</p>

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<p>Iderochi -- Hi, I have a son at Muhlenberg and he's very happy with the school. He's a science major and very involved with music. The atmosphere there is caring and friendly. Feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions.
andi</p>

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<p>W&L does give out very generous financial aid, and, although tuition is going up, but it's still cheap. I think they arranged for about 100 students to go to campus a few weeks ago to interview for the GW Honours Scholarships. The W&L thread (under "Top Liberal Arts Colleges") has more information on that.</p>

<p>If you are going to see VMI, at least see W&L - literally, it would be a waste of time to move your car, as they are so close together. Really lovely campus, although a very small town. </p>

<p>I-81 does pretty much bisect JMU. Harrisonburg, though, seems to be a very nice town - not traditional Virginia brick, but nice. There is more there than you'll get in the VMI area. Campus, though, is very... sterile.</p>

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<p>Well, the quest has come to an end. All in all a very productive trip to four very different campuses (if you count our tour of VMI). I'll post separate reviews of the schools, starting with University of Mary Washington. </p>

<p>An absolute perfect day to tour campus. High 60's and sunny. Lots of students doing lots of things and seeming genuinely happy. My stream of consciousness ramblings based on my notes, tour recollections and general thoughts:</p>

<p>Campus is beautiful, basically Georgian brick motif throughout. It was actually much larger than I expected for 4500+ students, and seemed very spacious. Parking is a disaster, though, alleviated only slightly by the fact that Freshmen can't have cars. </p>

<p>Fredericksburg itself, outside of the historic area, seemed pretty generic -- strip shopping centers, fast food restaurants, etc. </p>

<p>The school is still heavily (60%) female, though Admissions officer said they were trying for a balanced campus. No Greeks. Housing is guaranteed and required for Freshmen. It is not guaranteed for upperclassmen. Historically, this has not been an issue, but for the first time they have a short waiting list this year. They are hopeful that spots will be found for everybody on the list. </p>

<p>Average class size is 22, with the intro Freshmen classes of bio, chem and history being the largest at around 75-80. No TA's teaching. Some adjunct faculty, primarily in the music department (they come down from DC). Writing requiriements are stressed -- at least 5 writing intensive courses are required. The departments with the largest upperclassmen enrollment are Business, English, Biology and History at about 20-25 people. </p>

<p>50% acceptance rate, out of state typically makes up 30-35% of the class, with no hard cap (unlike UVA). SAT mid-range is 1170-1320, average of 1250. </p>

<p>No separate honors program. </p>

<p>Highlights from the tour: saw a real dorm room that was clearly NOT an artificial room from the "high end", which was appreciated. Small but not microoscopic. Clean and well-maintained common areas. No A/C (3 dorms do have A/C). Unbelievable brand new rec center that is tricked out better than any health club I've ever seen. Dining areas were a little limited, but food looked good.</p>

<p>Picked up the newspaper and some stories: There is a movement to lower the student faculty ratio from 17-1 to 15-1. This will lead to tuition increases -- no firm numbers, it will depend on state funding. Without ANY state funding, it would increase tuition 33% over 4 years (ouch!). Some discussion of the "Charter School" proposals that UVA and VT are pushing. Administrators aren't too concerned about any effect it will have on UMW. The "Police Beat" section seemed pretty mundane. </p>

<p>All in all I liked it a lot. S was somewhat less impressed, and gave it a "okay, but I'm not in love" review. I think he got a vibe that it could be a school that had a lot of cliques, even without a Greek presence. </p>

<p>Happy to answer any questions.</p>

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<p>We looked at VMI after UMW and before JMU, but as S is only a Sophomore we didn't do any real "admissions tour" at VMI so I won't provide a report. I would be happy to answer any questions about how he felt about VMI. Suffice it to say that S loves the idea of VMI, and the very general tour we took did help alleviate a lot of my misgivings. We will be looking at VMI very carefully next year. Also strolled around W&L (thanks for the tips Ariesathena!), but purely on our own. </p>

<p>On to James Madison. Again, this is basically general impressions and my notes, all in a pure stream of conscious rambling. </p>

<p>Much more bustling than any other school we looked at, which is only to be expected since it's so much larger. Due to the huge number of visitors, we had to park across the interstate and shuttle bus over. I think this got my S off on to a very bad foot. He doesn't want bustle. He doesn't want hectic. He doesn't want anarchy (see "He likes VMI" above!). </p>

<p>Admissions put on a very professional powerpoint presentation that still managed to be personal. Very nicely done. They talked about the General Ed program that is required of all students -- sounds good to me, but I can imagine that it might chafe some students that have a very clear idea of what they want to study. The new Integrated Science and Technology Center was very impressive, but is across the highway (as is the new Chemistry/Physics building and the new, nice dorms). 92% Freshmen retention, which I found very good for a university this size. 78% five year graduation. </p>

<p>Class size ranged from 3-298! The larger classes were (of course) Freshman Bio, Chem and History. These uber-large classes has small recital sections. Average class size is 29 for all classes, 33 for Freshmen. </p>

<p>Housing is not guaranteed for four years, and it was clear that a number of upperclassmen were not able to get housing. There was a lot of apartments in the immediate area, and our tour guide said the rent was very reasonable. </p>

<p>Admissions: SAT midrange of 1120-1200 (since it was April 1, the powerpoint slide on this originally said 1410-1550, causing a HUGE intake of breath in the room!). ACT of 24-27. They are not using the SAT writing for admissions. YET. They want to see some real world results first. </p>

<p>Tour notes: Again, it was a very nice day so we were able to see a lot of students wandering around, etc. Very vibrant campus, lot of activities on the bulletin board. Smiling faces, etc. Tour guide said it definitely was not a suitcase school. Greeks were about 10-15%, which made them a campus element, but not a dominant campus element. Dining options looked incredible! Sports was obviously a big deal, they were I-AA football champs last year, and are competitive nationally with several other sports. </p>

<p>Saw a "sample" dorm room that Res life rigged up -- don't like that at all. </p>

<p>Some random clips from the newspaper: Former student charged with murder, found in a JMU parking lot (bet they LOVED that headline). Castro's estranged daughter gave a talk. Student rally against Sudanese genocide. An article on increasing diversity. JMU may lease a local high school to get more space. </p>

<p>Bottom line. A good school, and appeared very vibrant and friendly. Obviously becoming very popular. For a variety of reasons, though, it didn't <em>click</em> with either my S or me. For my S, definitely cemented his opinion that he would be happier at a smaller school. Happy to answer any questions.</p>

<p>Muhlenberg tomorrow. I'm exhausted!</p>

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<p>As the great typhoon of April 2 moved in, we toured Muhlenberg. </p>

<p>Absolutely terrible day for a college tour. A wet, cold Saturday morning when there were no students to be seen -- they had a lot more sense than we did. Some random thoughts. </p>

<p>The campus is very pretty. Not as drop dead beautiful as some others, but a nice combination of modern and gothic architecture. The classroom buildings were well maintained. Science building seemed a little old, but still well maintained -- and they are in the middle of a major refurbishment and expansion. We toured a dorm room, a real one, that certainly seemed acceptable -- small, but well built. </p>

<p>Housing is guaranteed all four years, with a lottery to determine placement in the most popular options. </p>

<p>After Freshman year, classes are capped at 22 unless the professor grants a waiver. Most Freshman classes have 20-25 students, with the exception of the core freshman courses of bio and history. They can be as large as 85.</p>

<p>Greek scene is strong, but not dominant. There has recent been a Greek task force report that has suggested some changes. Primarily, they want to strengthen Greek life without expanding it, if that makes sense. They also want to strengthen other social options so that the Greeks aren't expected to foot the bill for all campus social life (and can also be more exclusive?)</p>

<p>Big news is that they are currently wrapping up a report looking at how their SAT optional program has worked out. The Admissions Rep couldn't give details, but she strongly hinted that there would be some changes -- maybe some additional requirements for applicants that don't submit SAT scores. However, this probably wouldn't be in place for a few years. For all students, even for those who don't submit the SAT as part of the application process, the average score is 1221. </p>

<p>Campus dining and entertainment options looked solid, just wish we could have seen more student activity. I would give some snippets from the school newspaper, but it was the April Fool's edition, and I'm not sure how helpful headlines like: Council Acts, President Suspended, Dean Dead would be. </p>

<p>S liked the school. At the end of the process, he ranked the 4 schools we saw as follows:</p>

<ol>
<li>VMI, Muhlenberg (Tie)</li>
<li>UMW</li>
<li>JMU -- Off his list</li>
</ol>

<p>Always happy to answer questions.</p>

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<p>lderochi,
we must have been at UMW on the same day (the only warm sunny day in the DC area all week!) Our impressions of UMW were basically the same as yours. I think the percentage of female students is higher--closer to 66%--but most of the guys must have been sleeping in--one gets a very female impression there.</p>

<p>Daughter liked UMW in spite of the tour guide's comments that most students hang around on the weekend because it's a good chance to do homework! UMW would have stayed on the list but she was turned off by a coach who blew her off (and this is D3!) One student said he came there because he was recruited for his sport but so were 80 other kids. They tried out for a fall team to cut the 80 down to 40 and then tried out for the spring team to cut the 40 down to 20. Yikes! Give me D1 and National Letter of Intent so we know where we stand. We have visited several D1 schools where the coaches are much more direct, encouraging and tell you what they want to see in order for you to be recruited. D is a national level athlete in her sport so it's hard to understand why the coach would not be courteous--it can only help the coach if she matriculates and tries out for the team.</p>

<p>At a school we visited yesterday, the president talked about the mysterious process that occurs in high schoolers' brains as colleges move up and down their mental lists. These little nuances from visits, interactions with coaches, guides, professors all contribute.</p>

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<p>Hey DCmom -- Yeah, it was a beautiful day. We were in a relatively small tour group with a bio major guide. Good guide, but she also shrugged off the "suitcase school" rep -- basically saying that people do leave on the weekend (she estimated maybe 1/3), but it's not the same people every weekend, depending on what is going on. If that makes sense. She seemed pretty defensive about it -- I guess it comes up a lot. </p>

<p>I'm clueless as to why your D was shown the cold shoulder -- maybe, because she has D1 potential, the coach just assumed that she would go elsewhere? But that's really cutting off you nose to spite your face -- what's to lose by being courteous and straightforward?</p>

<p>Yeah, the mysteries of teenage minds is scary. Our S started getting the various "look at us" mailings just because of his PSAT score (good but not mind-blowing), and I would routinely run through the mail and ask what he thought. You know Me: Temple? Him: Toss, Me: JMU Him: Keep. Etc. I came to a VMI mailing and it was Me: VMI? Him: Keep -- and I had to fiish it out of the trash because I had already tossed it. I mean, NO prior indication of interest in ROTC, the Service Academies, etc. He's a moderate Democrat. But for whatever reason, the VMI experience, and to a lesser extent the Citadel experience, is just really intriguing to him. Go figure, I've given up trying to understand where this stuff comes from! </p>

<p>Best of luck to your D</p>

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<p>Telling you, JMU area is HUGE compared to VMI area.</p>

<p>JMU does have a student murder every few years. Read a case in which one of the students was murdered back in 1990, and there is another unsolved double-homicide which occurred recently (but not JMU students?). </p>

<p>If your kid doesn't like bustle, the VMI area is great. Glad I could help. :)</p>