The Honor Concept at USNA: What separates you from the average college student

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>Hello Everyone,</p>

<p>Right now, honor at the Naval Academy is undergoing a transitional period. I want to make clear to anyone reading that there has been a misconception about how honor at the Naval Academy is perceived. While the core aspects of the Honor Concept remain strong, one thing is undermining the very principles of which it lies on, and that is ownership of the Honor Concept by the Brigade at large.</p>

<p>Underclass hold members of the honor staff generally in high regard, but I'm afraid that it's only because of the stripes we wear. Older, wiser classes see that honor staffs in the past have been just puppets of the administration, carrying out the wants and needs of other endeavors such as athletics in lieu of our moral mission here. There have been postponements of honor boards to accomodate varsity athletes, where on the table of priorities, Honor Boards take precedence over a varsity practice. This is only one of the issues regarding honor right now, because we as a staff feel that it is not being placed at the top of priorities by the administration.</p>

<p>I ask all of you prospective candidates, parents, and current midshipmen what the one thing is that separates our education from other schools, and why a Naval Academy degree is highly regarded to the public. I would argue that the Naval Academy gains a lot of respect because of the level of education received, but more importantly, the moral development we gain so that we can effectively lead our military and the American people in other capacities. This is why some bosses would rather take the USNA guy over the Harvard guy to run a project. Honor and moral development and the cultivation of it is what separates USNA and the other service academies from everywhere else.</p>

<p>I see a lot of threads here concerning nominations and chances and all of that, this is a forum for college admissions, and is perfectly acceptable. I just want to bring to light an issue for those candidates or for anyone else wanting to read.</p>

<p>If Air Force Academy can hold Honor Boards during the ACADEMIC day, then why does the administration choose to postpone initiatives of moral development in lieu of athletics? I just ask you that as you evaluate what a Naval Academy education really is. This year's honor staff is challenging the administration to act in accordance with the Brigade's wishes on honor. Everyone has an expectation of honor before they come to the Naval Academy, but it diminishes when it's seen that honor is not as punitive or taken as seriously. You've heard the word "cynical" used to describe the Brigade, and it's only a failure of expectations that generates this cynicism. The Brigade expects to be challenged morally, mentally, physically. Notice how morally comes first in our paradigm.</p>

<p>Throwing our stripes on the Commandant's desk and resigning our billets is the least we are willing to do in order to make sure that honor is made a priority at the Naval Academy. Ever since the EE cheating scandal, the Brigade has not owned their honor concept. We can only hope to move the fulcrum of honor expectations back into the Brigade's hands.</p>

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<p>I honestly wish that honor were truly an issue…but it isn’t. Our daughter has been dating a midshipman for nearly a year - his conduct and the conduct of his peers is appalling. It seems as if their goal in life it to skirt the rules and get away with as much as they possibly can. Getting drunk is the favorite weekend activity - scoring with girls the second favorite. They all seem to adhere to the concept that vulgarity, partying and getting laid makes you a “real” man. All we can hope for now is that she moves on as quickly as possible.</p>

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<p>Where is the honor offense, UDMom? Surely they are not zoomies posing as mids?</p>

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<p>strikes me as parental abandonment, inability or incapacity to judge right and wrong, or simply not caring. not to excuse Mids, but to blame them is misguided, imo. especially after a year of watching it all go down. one can only tango with a willing partner.</p>

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<p>UDMom, your statement of “They all seem to adhere to the concept that vulgarity, partying and getting laid makes you a “real” man” is a harsh one to make let alone to say ALL mids are like this, when about 20% of the Brigade is comprised of females. In addition, these are college students just like any other college and you’ll find that there will be a percentage that fit the “vulgarity, partying and getting laid makes you a ‘real’ man” description. </p>

<p>Please don’t judge the Naval Academy or the Midshipmen based on ONE midshipman.</p>

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<p>GoNavyXC, I remember the post you made back in May:</p>

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<p>You obviously feel changes need to be made. No change is simple. There will always be resistance. Now you talk of resigning. You are going to have to ask yourself whether you can do more on the inside or whether resigning is the only method to get everyone’s attention, and if you are successful, how you will then be effective from the outside. Don’t allow the first roadblock to cause you to throw up your hands in resignation. The Ethics Dept was created shortly after the EE cheating scandal, probably as a direct result of it. It can and should be a valuable tool in instilling honor. Secondly, I would ask you to reconsider whether or not this forum is a proper venue to air your differences.</p>

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<p>If people think the guys at USNA are bad…</p>

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<p>Loose lips sink ships, shipmate.</p>

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<p>I did not suggest that every midshipman was of questionable character. In fact, I did not even suggest that the kid my daughter is dating is a “bad” guy. I don’t think that he is a bad guy, nor do I think that his friends are bad guys. What I do think, is that they are of no better quality than any other college student. It was MY own perception of midshipman that was called into question here. I was mistakenly under the assumption that part of the recruiting process for the USNA was individuals of “high moral character” and it is not. Period. I do not agree with the fact that these kids skirt the rules, or get drunk or advertise for sex on Craig’s List - but they do. Just like every other college student. I just expected better, and I shouldn’t have. My mistake.</p>

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<p>Well, kinda . . . </p>

<p>You did say that the conduct of him and his friends was “appalling.” That “their goal in life [was] to skirt the rules.” This does seem to suggest that not only are they of no better quality than any other college student but that they are WORSE than any other college student. Unless, that is, you think ALL college students are appalling.</p>

<p>And you did say the “all” [now you may have meant merely “all” of your daughter’s mid acquantances] adhere to a certain quality. In any event that seems to cast a pretty wide net.</p>

<p>Now, having said all that, I can tell you, based on my exposure to many mids and incidents over the past four years, I have become aware of more disappointing “incidents” than I would have thought would occur at a service academy. BUT, I also believe that the incidence per 100 students [or how it might be measured] is much less than one might encounter at a civilian college.</p>

<p>So, did your daughter encounter [decide to date] a mid who is “appalling?” Apparently so. I can tell you that our experience with the GREAT majority of mids, in fact, almost EVERY mid I have ever met has been exactly polar opposite to what you describe. They have been ALL very considerate, polite, thoughtfule, honest, and, yes, moral.</p>

<p>Mids are like other groups: You choose with whome you care to associate and you become stained or praised depending upon the friends you choose. In other words: You play in the mud, you gonna dance with some pigs.</p>

<p>I would have NO reservation about encouraging my daughter to attend the NA. Are there bad examples? Absolutely. Is the NA perfect? Absolutely not. Based on my exposure to mids, however, they are NOT like every other college student.</p>

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<p>The day has come! Praise the Lord! Billyboy0510 and I agree. Sort of.</p>

<p>The collective stats and ECs of Midshipmen speak for themselves. They are virtually all stellar scholastic achievers and engaged HS students. They all, either by choice or persuasion, are on course to become at least momentary military leaders, and a great many will continue to lead in other aspects of their lives. </p>

<p>Are they above (or otherwise) the average bear in terms of character? That’s a total crapshoot. None knows as they are not administered moral inventories. Those of us associated, especially parents, are dying to think ours are a cut above. In truth, none knows. </p>

<p>But what is undisputable …the are EXPECTED to be pursuing a higher path. Honesty and honor are central to equipping them for the life-saving work they’re being prepped for. </p>

<p>So, when they fail in that, as UD is alleging, they are indeed failing in their calling. Does it happen? Of course, and more often than we imagine, I suspect. But they are to get back on the horse.</p>

<p>But now to the real point. It’s NOT about how poorly a Mid is treating your daughter. It’s about how poorly a girl allows a young man to treat her. And over a long period of time. Turn the finger around and deal with what is yours, UD. And allow the Brigade to deal with hm who you claim is morally corrupt. And you may be assured, they do. </p>

<p>In the end there are 2 very equal sides to this scenario.</p>

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<p>Well, indeed, we can agree to agree on one particular point [which I would guess UD would disagree]: the REAL question is why the daughter is going out with an “appalling” young man.
Now we all know that young women get attracted to dangerous young men for a variety of reasons. Add a white uniform to the equation–as well as an athletic body–and, well, the mix is to say the least: explosive.</p>

<p>Is there much mom can do about that? By the time it happens, probably not. That course was set well before the two shall, uh, began to mix.</p>

<p>So, while the young man and his friends may be appalling, I think the very valid question WhistlePig asks [for once] is about why your young woman continues to go out with this vulgar, partying, lay-about who fails to represent the academy very well. </p>

<p>Now, just to clarify, before you come back with both barrels loaded: Is an “appalling” , vulgar, partying, lay-about of a young man “bad” or not?</p>

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<p>Oh my!!! I step away for a few weeks and look what happens! </p>

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<p>Well, my daughter has brought home a stray- not sure “appalling” quite fits, but certainly not what I had in mind-
Not that I can do anything about it (believe me, I have tried!) - although I am not raising up the white flag on this one quite yet. </p>

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<p>It remains the mission of the USNA to seek candidates with high moral character. For the individual, it is a work in progress. They will learn lessons on loyalty, honesty, truth, Ship, shipmate, self. They are an accelerated path to maturity, something that becomes increasingly evident with each passing year on the yard.</p>

<p>Do they stumble? Yes. They are still young adults. They have the capacity to be just like their contemporaries, making stupid decisions, doing stupid things, taking stupid risks. They will learn quickly, and sometimes harshly, what is expected of them, and the bottom line is that they will be held to that standard. Are their second chances for those that stray a bit too far? Sometimes- depending on the infraction. But for others, the first mistake will be the last one they get to make at USNA. That is but one fundamental thing that separates them out from their contemporaries in civilian colleges.</p>

<p>Getting drunk on weekends- scoring with girls-
There are consequences to everything.
They will figure it out, and if not, it will be figured out for them. Not always with the outcome they want, but more than not, the outcome that they deserve.</p>

<p>What your daughter has to figure out is if this is what she deserves. If it is not, then she need not tolerate it.</p>

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<p>Oh my!!! I step away for a few weeks and look what happens! </p>

<p>Next time put in for a chit! :-)</p>

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<p>[Academy</a> honor cases focus on redemption, not expulsion • Top Stories (<a href=“http://www.HometownAnnapolis.com”>www.HometownAnnapolis.com</a> - The Capital)](<a href=“Real Estate – Capital Gazette”>Real Estate – Capital Gazette)</p>

<p>[Honor</a> code examples tough to piece together from documents • Naval Academy (<a href=“http://www.HometownAnnapolis.com”>www.HometownAnnapolis.com</a> - The Capital)](<a href=“Real Estate – Capital Gazette”>Real Estate – Capital Gazette)</p>

<p>[Honor</a> has bumpy history at Naval Academy • Naval Academy (<a href=“http://www.HometownAnnapolis.com”>www.HometownAnnapolis.com</a> - The Capital)](<a href=“Real Estate – Capital Gazette”>Real Estate – Capital Gazette)</p>

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<p>Good article. Looks as if perhaps things are indeed headed in the right direction, perhaps only slightly slower than GoNavyXC would wish.</p>

<p>Luigi, thanks for posting.</p>

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<p>I’m rather curious- which of these articles do you see as positive and reassuring rather than an indictment of the USNA administration that supports what GoNavyXC has been saying about the gutting of the Honor Concept? Sure the Commandant says “the Honor Concept is important to the Commandant” - but it seems hard to imagine the Commandant saying that he’s not interested in the Honor concept so that’s hardly reassuring. What else does he say that makes you think things are changing at all? It’s all alumni who are quoted as saying things were adrift- not Capt Klunder who is carefully modulating what he says in this article. In fact reading it closely it seems to me that he is making an awful lot of justifications for honor violators- talking about the stresses placed on Midshipmen and categorizing an awful lot of things as “minor violations” which don’t seem so minor to many of the alumni interviewed who also make some pretty telling comments about the remediation vs separation approach. "According to the case reports and related documents, instances of lying and cheating frequently involve multiple midshipmen acting in concert. Also according to the records, some mids have been allowed to violate honor standards multiple times without being separated.
“What got me was the conspiracies to commit honor violations,” said Curt C. Hartman, a 1987 Naval Academy graduate and the attorney who worked for two years to obtain the honor reports. “The mids know they will be ‘remediated’ and not separated.”</p>

<p>As far as Captain Klunder’s points about the stresses and time constraints on the Midshipmen- Really? And if they are having problems with basic honesty under the stress levels they have now- will their ability to deal with stress, take the heat and do the honorable and honest thing even at their own expense get easier when they are leading their platoon and asked to put themselves and their soldiers in harms way? </p>

<p>My take after reading these articles is that I’ve reevaluated GoNavyXC’s posts and now find myself a great deal more sympathetic to his point of view- prior to these articles I suspected that this was typical first class belly aching about the administration and that there was a flip side that the Mids just didn’t understand. Now- I believe GoNavyXC is right to be seriously concerned about the state of things.</p>

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<p>First off, GoNavyXC was disallusioned with the Administration’s apparent lack of support for the honor concept. Capt Klunder’s comments, to me, at least, indicate that he is indeed on board. And if the Commandant is on board, it is only a matter of time until the remainder of the administration is also on board.</p>

<p>I heartedly support the current policy to use honor as a learning tool. The article does not differentiate between punishment for fourth class and punishment for first class. I can assure you that there is a huge difference. The newly established Ethics Dept is there for a reason. Allow them to do their job, to educate and to train.</p>

<p>Secondly, in the old days as the article indicates, honor was much more black and white. While it made enforcement simpler, it made the reporting thereof much more complicated. Midshipmen were much less apt to report someone knowing that they would be dismissed. The current policy, as statistics prove, support this. Also, the definition of honor violations, in itself, is much more sophisticated. It is ironic that the old grads are upset that a Midshipmen was not separated for ‘stuffing’ his rack. When they were Mids, this was not even considered an honor offense. This, to me, is progress.</p>

<p>All in all, a more mature approach which will help all Midshipmen over the long haul.</p>

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<p>What do you mean WAS disillusioned?</p>

<p>Why does it take 3 articles published in the Capital for this issue to “come to the surface again?”</p>

<p>People, this issue has been eating at the Academy for at least 30 years, and it’s our job to fix it.</p>

<p>These 3 articles are just a jab and preview of what’s to come. What’s next, the honor staff resigning their stripes? Something noteworthy needs to be done in order to show AMERICA that the Brigade honor staff cares about the quality of NAVAL OFFICERS that are being produced at USNA.</p>

<p>Everyone, there are a lot of hands in the Naval Academy pie (athletics, academics, etc), but without HONOR, there is no pie. Nothing means anything without our reputation for honor and excellence. Cynical mids live in the brigade, and there are many because they had an expectation of the standards of honor upon arrival. When we preach high standards, but we see mids in the brigade who have committed honor offenses running around, it makes my commission feel tainted in a way, do other mids agree?</p>

<p>The Brigade Commander thinks that it is his job to tell everyone what the administration wants him to tell people. The honor staff of 2010 is a tight knit group of mids who has known something is not right with honor here, and it has not been right for a long time. Take it from someone who intricately knows the system, the process, how mids feel about this, and most importantly, how the administration is handling this. The honor staff is working hard to give honor “teeth”, but after awhile, you have to wonder when the staff is going to go into the 'Dant’s office, throw the stripes down on his desk, and ask him to pick a new staff, or restructure the way we do business.</p>

<p>The biggest issue is ownership. They say honor is run by mids, but the only fate we can control is by forwarding midshipmen to the Commandant for separation. After that, that person’s fate is out of our hands and we leave those decisions up to an 0-6 in the United States Navy to determine whether that mid should stay or go.</p>

<p>Make no mistake, MIDS WANT PEOPLE OUT WHO CAN’T FOLLOW A STANDARD. It is not up to us whether or not someone gets the boot. We are asking for support in a passive-aggressive manner to get OWNERSHIP back to be able to determine whether or not particular mids deserve to stay here.</p>

<p>Our degrees and commissions should be EARNED and held in high regard by those whom we lead and to the American people. </p>

<p>The wrong message is being sent here everyone. Here’s the problem in a nutshell:</p>

<p>A mid will get kicked out, no doubt for sexual misconduct, drug abuse, prt failure, and academic deficiency. However, a “slap on the wrist” is given for academic dishonesty, lying, cheating, or stealing. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? </p>

<p>Unless the honor process gets some teeth, MIDS will always weigh the punishments in their minds before doing something or telling a story. If we start kicking people out for lying, the first time, people will understand that it is ok to own up to mistakes of conduct, and in fact, those could be mitigated in the process if an emphasis is placed on being an HONORABLE PERSON FIRST. </p>

<p>I don’t care if you got a 2.1, failed every PRT…If you are honest and competant at your job, that is the officer I want. If you were a Rhodes Scholar who lied about everything, then what are you worth to the men and women of our Navy and America?</p>

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<p>An honor code is fixed, static, a set of tables chiseled in stone. Both its implementation and its enforcement are based on fear, fear of getting caught and fear of not turning in a classmate. A simple black and white program. The only variable is how the board will view each offense. The question is does someone under an honor code learn anything for the future when they are no longer bound by the code or are they simply presently reacting from pure fear with no guarantee of future performance?</p>

<p>However, an honor concept is a living breathing entity. Everything in the environment affects it, causing it to ebb and flow. When the affirmative response to “Are you lying to me?” can range from a simple reprimand of “Don’t ever do it again” to a recommendation of expulsion places quite a responsibility on those who chose to enforce honor. What can affect the diversity of these responses? The perceived seriousness of the offense of course but also many other things. For example, if the honor board is too zealous and too strict, it will probably decrease the number of honor offenses which reach it. Does this mean there is no enforcement of honor? Of course not. It is just administered at a different level. Why should the administration encourage honor enforcement at the honor board level? Standardization, of course. An equitable enforcement of honor is one of the things which will cause a mature system.</p>

<p>For someone to want to return to the honor system of 30 years ago or for someone who graduated 20 or so years ago to bemoan the present system demonstrates a true naivety as to how things really were. The honor system was basically a crutch for a lazy academic dept who didn’t want to make multiple tests. There was no honor committee, no Saturday morning PMT, no Ethics Dept. The concept of honor was, and remained, what each individual Midshipmen brought to USNA on I-Day. Most infractions were handled informally. The honor concept taught deception, how to “ethically” get around something. Mids were probably no more, or no less honorable than today. However, I would vouch that today’s officer-to-be is, through education, much more sophisticated than those of 20 or 30 years ago.</p>

<p>A living breathing organism will continue to ebb and flow. The pendulum will continue to swing. Sometimes, the administration of honor will be more lenient than some like, sometimes more strict. Sometimes the administrative department will be more active than some like, sometimes less. Sometimes the Brigade honor committee will be given a loose rein, sometimes they will be reined in. All based on other external factors which, at first glance, would seem to have no bearing whatsoever on honor. Perhaps a more lenient administration is actually forcing more honor enforcement to a newly matured honor committee, rather than it being handled informally.</p>