<p>I came across this site about a year ago. Since then I've read it voraciously every day, posted once in a while, and branched out to reading books on the topic.</p>
<p>Together, D and I have visited about 15 colleges, more or less. </p>
<p>Despite all that, I'm realizing that today I'm no closer to helping her find a good fit than I was a year ago. And time is fast running out!</p>
<p>I don't think she's being too fussy, but maybe she is. She says that she knows there is no one perfect college. Still, why aren't we finding the right fit for her, or even a pretty good fit?</p>
<p>She wants to major in Japanese or at least have Japanese available through the advanced level. Right there, that weeds out quite a few colleges. Then, the list gets further refined: NO schools that are 1) preppy 2) hippie 3) druggy 4) boozer 5) fratty 6) less than 2,000 student body 7) more than 15,000 student body 8) in the West 9) in the Midwest 10) in the South 11) too party-hearty 12) too intellectual.</p>
<p>Plus, we need good financial aid, either great need-based aid or generous merit aid.</p>
<p>Basically, is D too fussy and unrealistic? How can I best guide her to a school she might like?</p>
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She wants to major in Japanese or at least have Japanese available through the advanced level. . . . NO schools that are 7) more than 15,000 student body
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<p>Putting those two requirements together is tough. Japanese majors are rare everywhere, so it often takes a HUGE school to even have a Japanese department or a decent number of Japanese books in the library. As a Chinese-language major myself, I can testify that anyone who pursues an east Asian language as a major will find a (smallish) group of fellow students who are not druggies, boozers, etc. no matter what the campus culture. </p>
<p>And as to fit, it is Byerly who says that eighteen-year-olds are more adaptable than they themselves sometimes realize, so "fit" is, in his opinion, an overrated issue in college selection. Just go to the best college that admits you, he says, and I have some reason to think that that makes sense, within a very broad ambit of college choices.</p>
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NO schools that are 1) preppy 2) hippie 3) druggy 4) boozer 5) fratty 6) less than 2,000 student body 7) more than 15,000 student body 8) in the West 9) in the Midwest 10) in the South 11) too party-hearty 12) too intellectual.
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7 of those criteria are the type that are entirely subjective. If she rules out any schools that are "known to be" (fill in the blank), you're right that she won't have many left. So I think she should be careful about that. We've had threads about such stereotypes and whether they have any validity and some people believe the stereotypes have to have at least a grain of truth. Others think they very unfairly characterize schools. </p>
<p>I just know that you can hear people say Vanderbilt is "too preppy" and then hear of those who are there and don't see it that way at all; those that label Johns Hopkins "too cutthroat" and those who are there and don't find it that way at all; those that think a top LAC couldn't possibly be a boozer school and those that end up at a Dartmouth or Williams and find it crazy with booze. Others at those schools find their own people who aren't part of a boozer culture at all.</p>
<p>So, I would suggest she filter on the Japanese she wants, size and geography. Can't leave all that many schools. Then you can make some attempt to filter on financial aid policies. Then she should form her own opinions about those "culture" aspects without paying too much heed to the "word on the street," especially from those who have neither attended nor have kids who attend(ed).</p>
<p>Marite dear, I would be so pleased if you would come up with a substitute phrase for the endlessly overemployed and in my opinion slightly vulgar 'crapshoot' with its evocation of semi-drunk men kneeling and swearing their lives away in some grimey alley. Can you not call upon some esoteric european game of chance that does not contain a reference to the bowel movement within its construct? something perhaps having to do with favorible breezes or the manner by which a lady decides which pair of shoes shall be fortunate enough to enclose her feet on any given day,..</p>
<p>Well, as a student, I'll say it: she's being too picky and too judgemental.</p>
<p>At larger schools (though under 15,000), there are going to be all types of students. A campus with 10,000 kids isn't made up of 10,000 preppy kids or 10,000 druggies or 10,000 hippies. How would you even be able to make these judgements on a campus visit? My school has under 5,000 students and is usually characterized in a very particular way. I don't fit that stereotype, neither do my friends or most of the people I meet. There are certainly students here who fit the stereotype, but it doesn't make the school. </p>
<p>If she doesn't want to be more than a drive from home, fine (even though short flights are almost as easy as long drives). If she doesn't want a super tiny or enormous school, sure (even though as you get larger the differences in size stop mattering a whole lot since you only socialize with a small group anyway). It even makes sense that she would cut out a smaller school if she feels uncomfortable on campus and as if none of the current students are anything like her. Beyond that, though, I think specific judgement requirements (too many drugs, intellectual, too much partying, too preppy, too liberal, etc.) will severely limit her choices because, in reality, schools aren't make up 100% by their stereotypes, and your daughter could probably fit in and excel at any number of schools. </p>
<p>Visiting 15 schools are not liking any of them is a major problem, I think. There was only one school I visited on my own college trip (not my siblings') that I didn't like very much. One of the ones I did like I didn't end up applying to because I didn't like the essay options. Besides that, the ones I visited I applied to, and I now attend the first school I visited. The school was always one of my favorites until I started to hear more about the stereotypes of the students there. I tried not to pay them too much attention, and with good results-I chose the school anyway and have found all types of students on a pretty small campus, and I love it.</p>
<p>And continuing on our "mutual admiration society" theme, I will say that corranged has hit on an even more important nugget of truth. She can't necessarily even tell the "culture" with a visit; the Transfer Forum and Parent Forum have been liberally sprinkled this past month with posts from kids who thought they knew from a visit what the school was like, but now find a different "reality." It is a rare, rare, rare school where a student cannot find his or her people. And in a school with the predominantly "right" culture, a student can chance into the wrong floor of the wrong dorm and feel mis-cast.</p>
<p>Better she should focus her efforts on finding the right school for her objective wants and needs. Then learn how to make her way in finding the right culture for her within a school - choosing a themed dorm, joining the appropriate clubs, attending the kinds of activities where she will find like-minded folks. That can work just about anywhere.</p>
<p>Alas, O fortuna, velut luna...
Tykhe the Greek goddess of chance, would too easily be confused with a ticket. One could invoke Pascal's wager (shorn of its religious context), but I doubt many would get the meaning of Pascalian.</p>
<p>There's a biography of Girolamo Cardano, the Renaissance physician/mathematician/astrologer/inventor/gambler, titled Cardano, The Gambling Scholar (Princeton, 1953). I think that title could easily describe most college applicants.</p>
<p>In selecting colleges, the first step is create a list of personal college criteria and preferences in various categories (or at least in the categories you care about). These may include if the school has intended fields of study and strength of program, size of school, location/setting, geographic area and/or distance from home, school climate/culture, availability of one's EC interest areas, academic challenge level of the school, frats/sororities if care, need and/or merit aid (if care or qualify), single sex or coed, diversity, and so forth. </p>
<p>Then, one researches schools that fit into some of these personal parameters and preferences and then hopefully visits as well. A student then should list pros/cons about each school or just what they like about the school. Sometimes such a brainstorm will bring clarity as to which schools most closely match their criteria. But what is ALMOST CERTAIN is that very few schools are going to be A OK in EVERY single criteria that the student wants. Often one school meets five of their seven criteria (example) and another college meets a different set of five criteria from their list. And then there is a school that meets only three of their criteria. The first two schools are a better match, even if they don't meet all seven criteria and even meet different criteria than one another. Even so, the school that meets three of the seven criteria might still be liked enough to apply because it has some unique attractive things about it. Very few schools will match up in every single respect. But yet, once one finds a bunch of schools (and a balanced list in terms of admissions odds) that meets at least several important criteria and also has some other redeeming things, even if not perfect in every way, there is a very good chance that the student will be happy at that school. Each school that makes the final list should meet a nice amount of the personal criteria and preferences. </p>
<p>Certain criteria will be more important than other ones. For instance, I imagine the availability of the major is more important than the size of the school. Someone might be willing to go to a school that is not their vision of the ideal size because that school has a great program in their field and many other things that they like about the college. Maybe the school is a bit on the hippy side but has a wide variety of kids who attend and so that might not be the most ideal but the school is in the plus column in every other way, for example. </p>
<p>The schools on my kids' lists had several differences between them, yet each school made the list because it had enough things in the "plus" column to make the list. Some schools were preferred over others, but each had enough things that met the criteria to make the list, even if the school didn't match up to every single criteria. The kids "gave" on some areas to get another in some cases of schools on their list. One school was smaller than my D actually wanted (example) and wasn't near a city like she wanted, but she liked other things about it and liked it enough upon visiting to keep it on the list, plus she needed a school that wasn't as hard as some others on her list to get into. She felt she could be happy there. It wasn't her favorite but it met enough criteria to make her final list. If you want every school on the list to meet every single nitty gritty criteria, good luck! :D Some schools will meet some things you want, others will meet other important criteria but in the end, both have enough of what you want to apply and to inevitably be happy once you get there.</p>
<p>The kid needs to re-evaluate based on the parameters most important to her. </p>
<p>I'm not her but here's how I'd do it. I think it's rational that "Japanese language courses through the advanced level" , "not less than 2K and not more than 15K" be the first cut. After that I'm looking for money and to a lesser extent ease/costs of travel. (It continues to amaze me how much easier and cheaper transportation would have been to Occidental or Lake Forest College for my kid.)</p>
<p>The remaining issues are more like luxury issues. I'm not saying that campus culture isn't important-it is if used as the deciding point between two schools where</p>
<p>1)you can get in</p>
<p>2)have your major/get you where you want to go</p>
<p>3) and based on their history of FA you can afford (or at least that it's likely you can afford).</p>
<p>If you don't have a list built around these 3 you have a problem. </p>
<p>Until you get to that point, I don't think that it does her any good to let hippy/druggie/party etc. be a deciding factor (for all the reasons given above by other posters). Find the "possibles". Pick out those she likes the best, or dislikes the least. That's her list. ;) Use the other factors to cull if you have too many fish in the boat. </p>
<p>I don't know your kid and this could be WAY off base, but it seems to me there may a bit of a plan NOT to find the perfect school. That way she doesn't have to choose and it is still a dream. But hey, I could be wrong. ;)</p>
<p>Curmudgeon says it all. After considering schools that offer the major, are a reasonable size, student can get in and family can afford, you've already eliminated a lot of schools. Beyond that, most students should be able to adapt.</p>
<p>With DS a sophomore, I now consider ease of transportation an important issue. He's only 100 miles away, but even that gets tricky in terms of moving his stuff, getting him home for holidays etc. I think if he were on another coast, it would be a pain in the neck.</p>
<p>I think "crapshoot" is fine. It means, "risky and uncertain venture; from a dice game." It is a gaming reference, not a scatological one.</p>
<p>macnyc, have her read jmmom's first post. I believe it accurately summarizes the disconnect between reality and perception/reputation at all colleges. For example, Dartmouth whose unoffical mascot is called Keggie the Kegger has a reputation for widespread alcohol "issues" and undoubtedly there are many students who go out on a binge any given weekend. But like every other college the vast majority of students to not exhibit this behavior.</p>
<p>Large enrollments is a code phrase for public research universities which are perceived as being intellectually substandard and lacking intimacy. I went to Ohio State, among the biggest and baddest state uni's and can tell you that my department, consisting of less than 40 fellow undergrads in my class, was as intimate an academic atmosphere as any highly regarded private uni and many of my classmates were the academic equal of any student anywhere. Your daughter would find the same atmosphere in many Japanese studies departments at larger uni's to.</p>
<p>If you live in the northeast(NYC?), distance from home is an understandably valid issue for many students. If it is because of a perception of intellectualism residing only in that region of the country, that is a wildly misplaced perception.</p>
<p>Just have her read jmmopm's post to get a good grounding in the reality of college culture which she will encounter wherever she ultimatiely chooses to attend.</p>