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<p>I agree with this. At the least, I would be very careful about how I did worship near said mass grave.</p>
<p>But it may be that these Muslims aren’t meaning any ill will by doing so. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt when all I have to go on is news headlines and politicains’ speeches (two highly unreliable sources of information).</p>
<p>I’ve read all the previous posts, and I don’t think this has been brought up.</p>
<p>People lived and saw 9/11 with their very eyes. They might still be living in NYC, and they might work at NYC every day. Their emotions are still raw.</p>
<p>We, HS students, learn about religion/history/and respect at school. It’s great knowing that the future workforce has open minds. But, this “community center” crisis isn’t “dumb”. Emotions are raging out there, not knowledge.</p>
<p>Emotions are raging out there, but people let emotions ruin rational thinking.</p>
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<p>You can’t expect them to not get angry about it though.</p>
<p>They have freedom of religion. In that sense we should allow them to. However, those Muslims should know through common sense that building there is going to cause issues with many Americans. Why build there? Why not build another 4 or 5 blocks away, thereby avoiding the entire issue? Yet they persist in this bad idea. Why? What point is there to refusing to move a community center / Mosque / whatever it is a few blocks and avoiding a lot of trouble? Those are the real questions. </p>
<p>I’m not questioning Muslims’ rights to have Mosques in this country or New York City. But what should be questioned is the refusal of the Muslims behind the center to move it even a few blocks. They have a right to be in that location, but it’s a bad idea as silverturtle earlier stated, and so why are they still pushing that spot? I can only conclude, based on what admittedly little information I know, that it is some sort of slap in the face gesture. I could, of course, be wrong and that’s the only economically viable location for them in which case the situation changes. </p>
<p>That’s my 2 cents.</p>
<p>
According to [url=<a href=“http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gS7TE8pvuDxKMyat8RwtXh0A2KOQD9HM4IP81]this[/url”>http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gS7TE8pvuDxKMyat8RwtXh0A2KOQD9HM4IP81]this[/url</a>], it is supposed to “stand as a statement against terrorism”.</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://us-state-policy.suite101.com/article.cfm/ground-zero-mosque-facts]This[/url”>http://us-state-policy.suite101.com/article.cfm/ground-zero-mosque-facts]This[/url</a>] says that the building is “4-5 blocks away from proposed site of memorial and not visible as has been claimed from Ground Zero.”</p>
<p>Right, but in the minds of many people, that is too close. Not that I agree with them, I’m merely stating that despite the facts, the perception here is that the center is too close to Ground Zero, and therefore a slap in the face kind of gesture. My question remains: when confronted by such resistance and anger, why do they not simply yield and move a few blocks away and avoid the issue? </p>
<p>Personally, I think though they are allowed to build there, it is not wise nor helpful in inter-faith / Western-Muslim relations for them to build there. Whatever it was supposed to be, has now been consumed by the media in search of some quick news controversies and is another issue entirely. </p>
<p>On a side note, even though I myself am a Republican, many Republicans seem to be attempting to ignore the real issue here in order to gain ammo against Obama for the November elections, and in doing so, seem to me to be quick to label the Muslims as terrorists. That kind of partisan behavior is short-sighted and frankly childish, though the Democrats did it enough to Bush for the last 8 years. Ugh. Sometimes I think we would get much more done without politics. </p>
<p>Regardless of the facts, the situation has been warped by the media and fundamentalist groups into something that could have been avoided. In light of that, the Muslims behind the center should build somewhere else but do not have to do so.</p>
<p>mosbymarion: No, I don’t think they mean any harm. I think they just want a space to practice their religion. That’s okay. They’ve seen the backlash, though. They know how many Americans feel about this, that they feel disrespected. If I was in their position, I would have stepped back once I realized how negatively people were reacting and found a new place. Having a mosque so close just isn’t appropriate.</p>
<p>Also, if I was in their position, I wouldn’t want to build a mosque there because of all the attention it has received. It’s not safe. I would care more that my people could practice their religion than where they could.</p>
<p>I agree with monstor344.</p>
<p>But it’s not a mosque. It’s a community center, but because of quite a few Americans xenophobia particularly about Muslims, we associate any building associated with Islam to be a mosque, and associate it with terrorism. </p>
<p>That’s how sad it is.</p>
<p>circular said it perfectly</p>
<p>MITHopeful16: those are the facts. But the media has warped the center out of proportion, and the perception is that they are now building a mosque near ground zero. Thus the outrage. But, what you don’t understand is that to many people the objection is not: “I hate Muslims therefore they cannot practice their religion in this country”, but rather “I don’t think that Muslims should build a mosque near Ground Zero, where other Muslims in the name of Islam killed thousands”. Call that xenophobia if you will, and certainly xenophobia does exist in America, but perhaps moving the center a few blocks away would be a better idea. Most don;t object because they hate Muslims’ most object because it is seen as disrespectful for there to be a center near site where Muslims took the lives of thousands of innocents merely 9 years ago. </p>
<p>The Muslims must meet us halfway. They can build a center or a mosque or whatever it is because of the principle of religious toleration in this nation, but they should not do it next to a mass grave where other Muslims killed thousands. Building it elsewhere would be fine and more respectful of the grievances of the 9/11 families and all those affected by 9/11.</p>
<p>I agree with Circular. Yes anyone can build a mosque/community center on private property because of the First Amendment, but that’s not the argument. It is whether or not building this center so close to Ground Zero is a wise decision - and IMO it is not. Upwards of 70% of Americans don’t want it there - Muslims included. Imam Raouf needs to be sensitive to his fellow Americans and just put it somewhere a little further. Why here? Why this particular spot? He needs to understand that he cannot always get what he wants, suck it up, and just move the mosque. Even though he may not agree with some New Yorkers’ views, he still should listen to them and just move it. Also, Imam Raouf is very shady himself. He still does not denounce Hamas as a terrorist group, said some sketchy things about the 9/11 attacks, and is not open about his funding.</p>
<p>I find it really stupid that they’re freaking out about **** like this. Its okay for the U.S. Embassy to take up 5 blocks, and 3 quarters of a large road to build 3 security walls in my country, yet building a community center in NYC is a slap in the face. People need to grow up.</p>
<p>One point to keep in mind is that its an Islamic community center and masjid, not a Terrorist Community Center.</p>
<p>Isn’t building churches in black neighbourhoods a slap in the face for black people? The KKK is a religious organization, that killed and tortured more black people than the tiny number of terrorists who implement and believe in their own twisted version of Islam.</p>
<p>Also, if you watched a CNN story about the issue last week, there is another masjid (albeit very small; its in a basement) 500 yards from the proposed site that has been there for the past 50 years!</p>
<p>Sometimes (some types of) Americans **** me and the world off.</p>
<p>Why is the imam even listening to this BS? Can’t he just go ahead and build it as planned? Nobody has the right to stop them.</p>
<p>Wow “Isn’t building churches in black neighbourhoods a slap in the face for black people?” - are you serious? Black people go to church and most Blacks are very religious and Christian.
Stop being ignorant.</p>
<p>quite frankly, i have nothing against muslims but they shouldn’t build it there simply because it’s not an appropriate thing- considering that so many people are against it, they should just move. i don’t get the big deal about moving somewhere else in NYC, it’s not like there’s a big muslim community there, cause there’s not.
and this is not a question of religious tolerance- where you put a building has nothing to do with religious tolerance or intolerance
what i don’t get is that the planners probably should’ve known that this would generate all this controversy so why put it there in the first place, unless they wanted the attention
but muslims are not terrorists or radicals or whatever
it IS a matter of sensitivity however and many people are just uncomfortable with it, that’s all.</p>
<p>I would have to disagree with #5. I’ll start off by saying that in every religion or race there are “good” people and “bad” people. I’m sure the muslims making the mosque aren’t “bad”. But the terrorists are doing evil things in the name of Islam and repeatedly quoting their Quran to justify what they are doing. In the book itself it justifies killing in the name of Islam. “Almost all of Islam has nothing to do with terrorism” is wrong. Here are a few quotes form the Quran itself:</p>
<p>Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.” </p>
<p>Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” </p>
<p>Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.” </p>
<p>Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.” </p>
<p>Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.” </p>
<p>Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’” </p>
<p>You don’t see this in other religions. Also if you look back at history and how Islam spread through the Middle-East (which was dominately CHRISTIAN) you will see the terrorism written all over it.
Again I have nothing against Islam, I even have muslim friends. But saying it doesnt have to do with terrorism is completely wrong. Take a look at all the massacres that happened in the A.D. hundreds where people were forced to convert and all others will killed, thus making Islam dominant in the Middle East where it is most associated with.
This is comming from a Middle-eastern christian who as seen Islam at both extremes and knows its history very well.</p>
<p>
Why do you elevate religion above drinking? Both are particular forms of expression. Think of the example instead. How many consumers of beer are also drunk drivers? Very few. How many consumers of beer would try to dissociate with drunk drivers? Probably a great, great majority. Regardless, putting a beer stand at the very location of the deaths of dozens of schoolchildren from one drunk driving incident initiated by one drunk driver is enough to make people angry, probably unanimously so. And while I myself would still support its construction, I would have very similar feelings regarding the beer stand’s construction as I do in this case.</p>
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Two big problems with that one. One is that WBC has insulted soldiers, not killed them. The other is that the WBC is a minuscule faction of the Christian religion that pretty much does not retain of attempt to abide by any of the values established in Christian doctrine. I can form a sect, name it the International Church of Moral Well-Being, establish several meetings in a hotel during which we have fellatio orgies and claim that I am acting in the name of Christianity as well (my interpretation of “love thy neighbor”). That itself shouldn’t mean Christianity is suddenly associated with fellatio orgies. Tying it back to Islam: The Qur’an itself (and there aren’t too many factions of Islam that outright reject the Qur’an, last I checked) is the one that both brings up jihad and suggests it as not merely an act of duty but one with violent connotations as well. The funny part about Moderate Islam is that, if anything, it is Moderate Islam and not Radical Islam that is a more extreme deviation of the core tenets of Islam. I can go on and on about the things wrong with the Qur’an: misogyny, antisemitism (though this is hardly unique to Islam), and a certain quality of jingoism. However the single biggest problem lies in the word Islam and that it means submission; true Islam by this standard means utter adherence to the controversial values that Moderate Islam has drifted from but Radical Islam still holds quite closely. </p>
<p>I am only singling out Islam because it is relevant to the issue at hand. I am no fan of religions as a whole (though on a case-by-case basis the problems with each one vary; with Islam it’s clearly violence). I do think they have plenty a right to exist but on the other hand we have perhaps forgotten that in allowing religion to exist and not scrutinizing the problems that might derive from it we give religion an undeserved status above that of other forms of speech and expression in that it can transcend the law.</p>
<p>The amount of Muslims killing people in the history I’ve observed is trounced by the amount of Christians killing people.</p>
<p>^ Irrelevant observation. Not only can I make the argument that there are more deaths caused by the words of the Qur’an than there are deaths caused by the words of the Bible, but even if we took your words at face value…So what? Not everyone who feels funny about this issue is a Christian.</p>
<p>^^Ah, but MITHopeful16, does Christianity here specifically teach the killing of infidels as doctrine as Islam, in sharia law, indeed does? And, before anybody mentions the word “Crusades”, let me say that the Catholic Church (who somewhat launched them) has apologized several times for them and other transgressions that came about because Christians did not follow their own teachings. </p>
<p>Even if more Christians killed more people (a vague and not historically correct statement I suspect) it would not prove your point, because Christianity does not teach as unquestionable doctrine to kill unbelievers. Islam, in sharia law, does. Also, the argument is not Islam vs. Christianity, it is whether or not the Muslims should build a center so closely near Ground Zero. </p>
<p>So stay on topic.</p>
<p>@konig,
Maybe the Muslims are ****ing some Americans off by attempting to build centers near the site of a mass grave for thousands of innocent Americans? It is a slap in the face if they adamantly refuse to move. What else could it be? Why not move a few blocks over, have your center, and respect those who died / were affected by 9/11? In the absence of more information, that’s the only logical conclusion.</p>