The Other Way to Search for Colleges

Parents Forum
1

<p>Reading through posts here at CC, it looks like I (and my parents) come from an alternate universe when searching for college.</p>

<p>I never once did an extracurricular activity because it's "looks good to colleges."</p>

<p>I never thought about what colleges would think when choosing my classes.</p>

<p>I never once looked at the US News and World Report rankings (or any other rankings) until after I had applied to college and then only to shake my head in disbelief at the utter stupidity of "ranking college."</p>

<p>If I put in the effort, I think I could get a damn good education from about 200 universities in the country.</p>

<p>I could care less about the "prestige" of my undergraduate university.</p>

<p>However, I did think about what college I wanted to attend--a lot. And my parent's assisted me in a very unobtrusive but helpful way.</p>

<p>We had family discussions where we talked about what was important to me in colleges. And then I (with or without my parents) visited colleges I was interested in. And then we'd have more discussions, my parent's always trying to get me to think about why or why not I liked a place, but never imposing their views or preferences on me.</p>

<p>When the actual application process came around, they tried to keep me from being stressed. And they did help me with my application--it seemed like every time my dad read an application essay I wrote, he'd tell me, "It's too general--colleges want specifics, they want to know you and how you think." And then he'd be my sounding board for what I thought I could be more specific on.</p>

<p>But, talking to other students and their parents, I seem to find I'm a anonomaly.</p>

<p>There are two groups: the kids who don't do enough to prepare for their future and those who do too much. And whether the kids falls in either of these catagories seems directly related to whether his parents are too involved or not enough.</p>

<p>The parents who arn't involved enough are the ones that will never be found on these forums. They're the parents who ask their kids what every grownup I meet asks me, "So, where are you going to college?" But that's the extent of the involvement. They're the parents of the kids who are looking through college guidebooks in december, realizing they need to decide where they're going to spend their next four years at within two months. THey're the parents of kids who apply to one school and don't think about the consequences of putting all the eggs in one basket.</p>

<p>And then there are the overinvolved parents. The one's who relate every school-related activity their kids does with how it will look to colleges. The kids (or their parents--sometimes it's hard to distinguish) who really want to get into Harvard, Yale, or Princeton because, well, they're Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. [Have the people applying here really visited all three campuses? Did they really love all three? I hated Princton, liked Harvard, and forgot about all three when I visited Stanford (heaven) and UNC-Chapel Hill (a much cheaper heaven)]. These kids and their parents are the ones who lap up college rankings.</p>

<p>I don't really know why I wrote this--I guess because I'm interested in other kids' experiences with their parents while searching for colleges--and their parents' experiences with their kids during this proceess. (Actually, the real reason may be a discussion I just had with my aunt, a steriotypical "overinvolved and stifling parent," but I digress...)</p>

<p>And I guess I also wrote this to make the point that parent's seem involved where they're least-needed (encouraging their child to do stuff for colleges and not for the sake of good 'ol learning or hiring "private college counselors" to get their kids into selective univerisites, whether the kid wants to or not) and least involved where they're most needed (as a sounding board for their child, as the initiator of college trips for their child to find a college THEY like, as a figure reminding their kid they'll be fine wherever they choose to go.)</p>

<p>The decision of where to go to college is the kids (or childs, or teens or young adults) decision to make, not the decision of his or her parents. But parents are needed to help the kid find out what decision they want to make.</p>

2

<p>I don't think you have read this board long enough, or you would have realized that there are **many **people like you and your parents - you are NOT alone. For example, this

[quote]
I never once did an extracurricular activity because it's "looks good to colleges."</p>

<p>I never thought about what colleges would think when choosing my classes.</p>

<p>I never once looked at the US News and World Report rankings (or any other rankings) until after I had applied to college and then only to shake my head in disbelief at the utter stupidity of "ranking college."</p>

<p>If I put in the effort, I think I could get a damn good education from about 200 universities in the country.</p>

<p>I could care less about the "prestige" of my undergraduate university.

[/quote]
could have been written by son. And there are PLENTY of parents on this board who are involved JUST the right amount. Your family is NOT an anomaly from an alternative universe.</p>

3

<p>A high schooler who has taken the time to visit H,Y,P,S and UNC--isn't obsessed with rankings? </p>

<p>Methinks thou doest protest too much.</p>

4

<p>Most of the problems I have seen with families about the college process is that they have NOT thought enough about it until it is too late to do anything to change a status quo. That goes all the ways from not researching match schools to not thinking enough about the financial implications. It is a little late in senior year to realize that maybe you should have taken those AP courses, or that a prep course in math might have easily brought up a sagging SAT score. And families with outstanding students consistently visit the top schools, the HPY schools instead of researching the many other schools. It is very easy to compile a list of the top name schools. Much more difficult to do so with schools that are not as selective. I have seen more kids who have toured Harvard than have toured Clark, and more kids can get into Clark, there is less available info on Clark, and more reason to research Clark. Harvard could not care less if you visit them, and I truly don't see what could be gained by an early visit there. If you get accepted to Harvard, most likely you go. But I see so many families who have only visited the name schools and are savoring the thoughts of their kids picking between H and P, and" New Haven is just out of the question, Jr hated it". Don't know many kids who have the choice among the three. Better start looking at schools where you have half a chance of getting in. </p>

<p>And most kids are obstinate enough that it is difficult to get them to do more than the basics in getting into college. Try shaking a kid out of senioritus. Try getting a kid to do some real work he does not want to do. The reason there are so few kids with real hooks is that despite all of the talk of molding these kids into HPY material, it is rarely successful. Even if you have a kid talented in something that is hot to the elite colleges, and the kid is motivated, getting up to that level where it is a hook, is not easy. I say this as a Mom of a national level athlete, of two kids very talented in art, all very good in music, one an outstanding performing arts type. I saw many of those parents who were right out there with the bullwhips giving it there all, and, though, yes, there were some who made it, I don't think it is a route you are going to see many taking. Kids are kids, and their foibles are what make them what they are, and adults trying to improve them for whatever purpose has not gained much speed over the years.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
parent's seem .... least involved where they're most needed (as a sounding board for their child, as the initiator of college trips for their child to find a college THEY like, as a figure reminding their kid they'll be fine wherever they choose to go.)

[/quote]
To me, this is the most important kernel in the OPs analysis. Whether or not the statistics bear out the assertion that too many parents fail to focus on this aspect, OP is so correct that this is where we SHOULD be focused.</p>

6

<p>Wookie - your post in many respects - hit the nail right on the head - and as a parent I have to agree with you - the hpy thing and the pre-empts leading up to the college search should be a bit of a family afair - to a point.</p>

<p>I think your post defined our college experience pretty well - for both of my college bound ones - actually our S had it all together pretty much on his own - he had made his decision all by his onesy's - and did a darn good job - and we supported his decision completely. Our D was in a different place - but we were very supportive in all the ways you mentioned - did all the driving for those college trip too lol. Out college trips were a great bonding time for us also - and I think very successful - we made them fun and not all stressful.</p>

<p>We supported and encouraged our kids in the directions they chose to go - but I do have to admit that I really don't think they could have done what they have done alone. thank you for an eyes wide open approach in yor post.</p>

7

<p>Wookie - your post in many respects - hit the nail right on the head - and as a parent I have to agree with you - the hpy thing and the pre-empts leading up to the college search should be a bit of a family afair - to a point.</p>

<p>I think your post defined our college experience pretty well - for both of my college bound ones - actually our S had it all together pretty much on his own - he had made his decision all by his onesy's - and did a darn good job - and we supported his decision completely. Our D was in a different place - but we were very supportive in all the ways you mentioned - did all the driving for those college trips too lol. Out college trips were a great bonding time for us also - and I think very successful - we made them fun and not all stressful. But that is not to say it was not a stessful experience at all - it definitely was a challange at times due time constraints of a school going, athletic, working teenager.</p>

<p>We supported and encouraged our kids in the directions they chose to go - but I do have to admit that I really don't think they could have done what they have done alone. thank you for an eyes wide open approach in your post - cuz many of us parents have our own lives to live also - i.e. - jobs and other responsibilities.</p>

<p>My kids are ordinary but extra-ordinary in their own ways - each very differently - neither was at all interested in the upper schnuff eschelon of HPY - tho S did end up at an elite LAC - but all on his own doing. Where we live - many ask the question - how come no one is going to HPY lately - and many respond something like this - why spend all that money that one might not have or be able to come up with - when you can get an excellent education at other good schools!!! Worked for us!!</p>

8

<p>Well - since you asked, maybe I can offer some reassurance that, even in the most hapless and hopeless of circumstances, the college search really can turn out o.k.</p>

<p>As background, I have not attended any school since 9th grade. Do have a high school diploma, though from a correspondence school. I just received a copy of my transcripts, and my coursework contains stuff like "how to care for your car", etc. The abridged version is I was a ward of the court, no parents, etc. So no "normal" high school and therefore no college, and no knowledge of the college search process. Fortunately, I'm very successful in business, so when I next became a single, unwed mother, I resolved to send D to the best private schools I could find. I also required she take full advantage of the opportunities at these schools, including sports, so along the way she became proficient in at least one sport. And, I assumed that when college came, I would be paying for it all - unless she got a scholarship of some sort. For whatever else I may lack, I do have the ability to earn a decent amount of money, so the financial side of it didn't keep me up at night, then or now. </p>

<p>One summer during high school she asked to go to an activity at Harvard, so I said yes, and sent her. Came home completely in love with the college; decided to apply. Now, I sort of thought that when you decided to go to college, you sent in your application and tuition money a week or two before the start of classes. In my mind, she could spend the summer following high school graduation applying to college. I also though that if you had the grades and the money, you could simply choose a school, and go there. I'm sure you must think I'm making this up or engaging in creative writing; I assure you this is all true. </p>

<p>Lucky for us, the high school college counselor engaged, and helped her prepare her EA application to Harvard. I couldn't understand why it was all happening so early, and I actually asked "why not wait till summer when you have more time???" - I was given a file of forms to fill out - financial stuff. My expectation was that Harvard would admit her and that I would be paying $40K per year - all based on my assumption that if you had grades and money, you went wherever you wanted, period. I wasn't concerned; I'd attended all the parents meetings at the high school, and I understood they'd hired a college counselor, and so assumed that this person had matters well in hand. And, I had a wonderful daughter - everyone said so, that's all I'd been hearing for 18 years, and so if everyone else could see that, surely the far more erudite people at Harvard would see it as well. And of course, I had no idea whatsoever that there were more applicants than spaces - it just absolutely did not ever occur to me. </p>

<p>When the EA deferral decision arrived D was hurt; I was confused. Read the text of the decision over and over..."we are unable to make a decision on your application at this time"....all I could think was "what does this MEAN???"...how could Harvard be unable to make a decision, especially since the stats and facts were all so clear? No matter how many times I read the text of the decision, I could not grasp it, and could not understand how she could be admitted later, if not now. Would the same set of facts somehow become clearer to Harvard in a few months? I called the college counselor, but didn't quite understand her responses. By some stroke of luck or perhaps divine intervention I did at least have enough sense not to call Harvard directly and ask them to explain their decision. </p>

<p>So I drilled into the internet in search of some information that might make sense. I wonder if you can imagine my surprise, then fear, then outright horror when the situation became clear - the numbers suggested D might not get into Harvard at all, and worse, there were no other colleges on the horizon for her, because she had no plans to apply anywhere else. Of course, coaches were calling, but she was telling them all Harvard was her first choice. </p>

<p>It was some days after the EA deferral - and it might have been weeks - I had to tell D that she must apply to other schools, and, contrary to any previous statements I made about having plenty of time, she didn't have very much time at all. But D didn't really want to go to any other school, and, she didn't yet understand that her prospects for acceptance at Harvard were bleak. After all, the coach of her sport wrote a letter saying that they were supporting her candidacy, so, in her mind, the Harvard acceptance would arrive in April. </p>

<p>It took some selling to convince D to apply to other schools, but she did so - the selection was a matter of majors and sports, and it was a rather rapid learning curve for both of us. We visited the internet again, pulled together a spreadsheet, and we had to get applications, recs, financial documents, etc., all in process quickly against an approaching deadline. She had a few acceptances when April came, though not from Harvard. </p>

<p>But the most interesting part is - at the last possible moment, I insisted that she apply for at least one "safety", because of all that I'd read online. Her response was "which one do you want me to apply to"? I told her it was her choice - but there must be at least one safety. </p>

<p>D couldn't have cared less, and, just to comply with a parental demand, literally retrieved an application out of the trash can in her bedroom, filled it out and sent it off. (I cannot remember why she didn't apply online.) I didn't consider the school a "safety" at all based on the definitions posted in various places on the internet, but D had eyes only for Harvard, and in any case it was impossible to get her to consider the state flagship, because it lacked both the desired major and a competitive program for her sport.</p>

<p>She's now very, very happy; an excellent student in her junior year, winning in her third season as a varsity starter, serving on student senate; also the athletic conference representative for all sports at the school, and nominated for two separate national awards. Best of all, she started off with academic scholarships, and now receives athletic money as well, so I have zero expenses at a $40K/year school. Oh, and she attends the school where the application was retrieved from the trash at the last possible moment. It's a very nice, large, national university too, not in the top 20 but close enough. </p>

<p>I'm not a neglectful parent at all - I simply did not know what was required to select and apply to colleges, having no frame of reference. In addition, the volume of mail that began in junior year was so overwhelming that I sort of assumed attending ANY college would be very easy. Paperwork coming home from the high school offered deadlines and information, however, I somehow managed to assume that this was the school's internal time scheme, rather than a fixed sequence relating to actual deadlines at colleges. But in any case I ignored most of the paperwork because it made no sense, and I still of course thought she could focus on it all after graduation. I also attended 100% of the parents meetings at her high school, however, college issues were not raised in these meetings - with the exception of one parent asking for more AP classes "so our kids can get into good colleges", but I had no idea what the parent was talking about, or what the relationship was between these things. If only I'd asked, right? </p>

<p>I'm certainly not recommending anyone take a casual approach to the process, however, things can and do turn out o.k. in spite of horrific beginnings.</p>

<p>Last, I don't even desire a "do over". Somehow, I just know that if we did this "right", D would end up in the exact same place. Some part of me really thinks that most students do end up exactly where they should be, and also that a higher power does look after those of us who sometimes steer ourselves far off course.</p>

9

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<p>This is exactly what the young, naive, recent-immigrant Henry Kissinger thought when he came out of high school. He applied way too late and all the colleges refused to accept his application. Some went so far as to include very snotty letters by way of explanation. All the colleges that is except one --> Harvard. No fuss, no muss - Harvard just accepted his very late application and admitted him. The rest is history</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
All the colleges that is except one --> Harvard. No fuss, no muss - Harvard just accepted his very late application and admitted him.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wonder if Harvard would do that now?</p>

11

<p>That is very funny that you are so judgemental of other people, when you yourself post on CC, but never think that CC might be populated partially or mostly, by parents who think similarly to yours. And that you then take the time to lecture us.</p>

<p>If you read the parents forum, you'd find it to be more like you and your parents views that the rest of the cc forum. But instead, you'd prefer to lecture us 'ill-informed ppl' about your superior process.</p>

<p>Since you give no specifics or insight to the college process and selection you went through, you give no info that helps anyone in any way. This is worse that the uninformed cc-ers that at least try to help others by providing concrete information.</p>

<p>All your statements could pretty well apply to my dd. Her problem was narrowing down those 200 colleges into a managable list for applications. After getting an EA acceptance she was able to shorten the list considerably, but still left a range of schools, since she is still deciding.</p>

12

<p>I agree with Bettina in that all families will have differing styles of decisioning - and all are fine. The end result is important; the method of getting to that end result isn't. I am sure that everyone operates from their strengths, and every parent tries to do his or her best within the range of available resources of time, money, information, etc. I am sure also that the approach to college application probably also can differ greatly with siblings within the same family - I have only one child, but I can well imagine that with siblings, one student may require substantial parental involvement, while another may require or desire very little. </p>

<p>I also don't think there's anything wrong with desiring "name" schools, or using USNWR rankings. At the end of the day, I am sure all parents want the best possible advantages for their children - but most of all, we do want our children to be very, very happy in life. After all, we love our children intensely and wildly, and will do all possible to ensure they have have the best possible foundation for that happiness that we desire for them so much. </p>

<p>I'm probably a "double anomoly" - a parent who did far too little in the beginning, then overcompensated by doing far too much. My methodology was clearly skewed, but I stand by the results. I don't think anyone should judge another family's approach to this process, because every family is different, and everyone is absolutely entitled to their choices. </p>

<p>Cevonia - I don't think so. D applied to one Ivy - and missed the deadline by a mere couple of days. They fired back an immediate letter of rejection, citing the missed deadline in the text of the letter. However, they did process my check, $60 as I recall. I didn't protest - fair enough, lesson learned, I thought.</p>

13

<p>"That is very funny that you are so judgemental of other people, when you yourself post on CC, but never think that CC might be populated partially or mostly, by parents who think similarly to yours. And that you then take the time to lecture us.</p>

<p>"</p>

<p>I agree. I guess it's a reminder of the hubris of the young. I do remember being like that. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, most of the longtime parents who post on this forum (which incidentally is called "parents' forum" for a reason) are people who are not pushing their kids into ECs for resume dressing or trying desperately to get their kid in to a HPYS. </p>

<p>They are parents who are doing their best to help their teens use high school as a time for self discovery, and the parents are hoping to find colleges for their teens where the teens can continue to develop their gifts, flourish and be happy and supported.</p>

14

<p>Some parents just don't know any better. My dad realized he needed to go to college the summer of his Senior year and went to two years Community College and then two years transfer to University of Colorado. He just assumed any college was a college. My mum never even touched the college route. I was the oldest of the kids and the first one to hit the college application process... with no support whatsoever. I was incredibly sick (Mono) for the from Febuary of my junior year on and was unable to do any visits since I couldn't really sustain myself for more then an hour. But then, when I started to get better, both my parents informed me visits were out of the question. They both work and neither have any time for such things. Plus, the two further away places I wanted to see (U of Chicago and the Claremont Colleges) were definately out of the question because we couldn't afford the air fair. College apps began to come and once again I was on my own, only now I had to apply blindly to various colleges. I did get one interview (with Whitman), but that was the only interaction I had. My parents would sit and complain about how much SATs cost and how I shouldn't apply to anymore places because the app fees were too much and how I should just make a decision. </p>

<p>They didn't understand how many hours I spent trying to make my situation work. </p>

<p>Then the acceptances from my EA schools and my state schools came in. With one of them came a 10,000$ scholarship which was promptly met with a "Well, that school is still too expensive". My parents still refused to budge their schedules so I could visit and I was left fretting. Then, they started to hear what other parents did with their kids. They started to feel bad because they realized I was trying to make a very important decision and was recieving no support whatsoever. They've both since vowed to try to help me more, and to make sure that they're really "there" for my next two siblings. </p>

<p>However, they still are having issues with visits and seem pretty set that most of my schools are too expensive. I don't blame my parents. Both my parents are busy and have the best intentions. But, sometimes, especially for parents who didn't have a strong college experience, they just don't realize what all goes into it.</p>

15

<p>From what I see in my S's school and elsewhere, most parents don't know any better. Frankly, it's only a very small percentage of parents who are actively involved in their kids' college search.</p>

<p>I know plenty of loving, highly educated parents (including college profs and others with doctorates) who expect their kids to do virtually all of the work involved in finding a college, and for that matter, finding themselves.</p>

<p>Typically, parents expect that their offspring will virtually magically know their own interests and talents, and will virtually magically head for the ECs and other experiences that will help nurture and strengthen those interests and talents. From what I have seen, few students are like that.</p>

<p>Many simply follow their friends in to activities or sit on the sidelines. Relatively few are willing to risk trying new things that they're interested in. Many also think that skills are a matter of innate talent, and they don't realize that skills result from exposure and practice, including trying again after not initially understanding the new skill.</p>

<p>Most parents also lack an understanding of the differences between colleges, and how for students to optimally flourish in college, there should be a good fit between the students' interests and personalities and the college. </p>

<p>Most parents, including educated ones, may have a very rough understanding of a Harvard and a local public institution and, perhaps, a flagship public, but they don't know about other types of colleges or the various differences between colleges. </p>

<p>Their understanding also might be as follows: "Harvard-- for rich, brainy snobby kids. No chance for my kid" (even if the kid is a first gen college student with 1550 scores)."</p>

<p>Another version of the Harvard story is, "Harvard-- my kid will be a shoo-in." Parent assumes that because the kid is valedictorian and perhaps National Merit, the kid will get in and will get a full merit scholarship (Harvard doesn't give merit scholarships!). Therefore, the kid only applies to Harvard, and local, mediocre public, and gets in only to that safety even though the kid could have gotten into many much more appropriate colleges, including those offering great merit aid.</p>

<p>Many parents think local university -- "affordable, great place for my kid" (even if the kid is a National Merit Scholar with obscure research interests that the local u has no program for), "flagship -- state's version of Harvard, affordable place for brainy kids."</p>

16

<p>There is a wide range between being over involved and under involved. More parents are under involved simply because they do not know much about the way colleges work. This board is not representative of parental involvement and student worrying about colleges. Most colleges are pretty non selective and it is just a matter of possibly getting aid of sorts. It is the tiny population that wants to go to the most selective schools that gets all of the hype because of all of the app for each spot, and how highly qualified most of those kids are. </p>

<p>To the OP, from the colleges you are visiting, you have entered this world of selective colleges. Most kids not only do not worry or build themselves for a college, they are not even visiting and are concerned more with the local nonselective schools where their resumes are not a big issue at all.</p>

17

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<p>I don't know if it would still accept late applications, but Harvard is apparently still able to look beyond the missing pieces and admit unsual students in which they see potential. I know of a kid who is a freshman at H this year who is a high school dropout. But he is very smart and very accomplished - having, among other achievements, founded his own very succesful company. Like Henry Kissinger, all the other colleges to which he applied rejected him out of hand. But Harvard evidently saw something there and was willing to take a chance. I guess we'll have to wait and see whether he turns out to be as successful as Henry.</p>

18

<p>How successful you think Kissinger is I guess depends on whether or not you agree that he is a war criminal as many do, certainly not someone I would suggest anyone pattern their career on</p>

19

<p>Let's keep on topic here!</p>

20

<p>By successful I meant that Henry Kissinger enjoyed a successful career as a professor, achieved high office with many years of public service, won a Nobel Prize, and got to date movie stars to boot. I did not mean to endorse nor even comment on the merits of any of his specific policies.</p>